Imperium Secundus - How could it be improved?

[caladancid]

A question, what is the cause of this new "superhero fights" phrase being used so much? All of a sudden I am seeing that a lot and I must have missed whatever post caused it to become a buzzword.

 

Is it because of the angst consuming people over Dan Abnett's revealed place in the Siege of Terra books? I do know that lately the Abnett complaints have reached new heights, even as the guy is releasing some of the most excellent books he's written (Magos, Warmaster, Anarch).

 

I am particularly confused because superhero fights seems to be meaningless primarch fighting where nobody dies? But come on.  Most of us in this particular subforum are familiar with each other and so I don't think I need to list for anyone how many times primarchs fight each other where nobody bites the dust. 

 

When I read Abnett's Curze for the first time I thought, "oh wow so THIS is why everyone is afraid of him."  Same sort of thoughts on primarchs in general when Guilliman survived the assassination attempt.  I just think there is some revisionist stuff going on right now with everything Abnett has written.  If you were pointing to I Am Slaughter and shooting the flare I would agree 100 percent, but I am not sure that of all the books in the series UE deserves this.

[Xisor]

A question, what is the cause of this new "superhero fights" phrase being used so much? All of a sudden I am seeing that a lot and I must have missed whatever post caused it to become a buzzword.

 

Is it because of the angst consuming people over Dan Abnett's revealed place in the Siege of Terra books?

Unlikely. (Or at least not due to that particular issue.)

 

See here for some 2013-era hot-takes referring explicitly to the comic-book turn in UE being abnormal for Abnett.

 

Here, specifically: http://thebolthole.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=39&p=67945#p67945

 

I don't think 2013 comments re:comic book quality in the second half of UE (significantly different from superhero? I wouldn't say so, in general) really explain anything in the zeitgeist.

 

(His 2016+ books have been huge hits by most accounts I've seen. I've only read The Magos.)

[caladancid]

 

A question, what is the cause of this new "superhero fights" phrase being used so much? All of a sudden I am seeing that a lot and I must have missed whatever post caused it to become a buzzword.

 

Is it because of the angst consuming people over Dan Abnett's revealed place in the Siege of Terra books?

Unlikely. (Or at least not due to that particular issue.)

 

See here for some 2013-era hot-takes referring explicitly to the comic-book turn in UE being abnormal for Abnett.

 

Here, specifically: http://thebolthole.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=39&p=67945#p67945

 

I don't think 2013 comments re:comic book quality in the second half of UE (significantly different from superhero? I wouldn't say so, in general) really explain anything in the zeitgeist.

 

(His 2016+ books have been huge hits by most accounts I've seen. I've only read The Magos.)

 

 

Those are interesting.  What is also of note to me is the tone in that thread. More of a 'meh' than the reactions and discussions of UE have been lately.

 

Also I don't go on many forums other than this one so that could explain my lack of awareness of the superhero thing.

 

-edit

 

I am still unclear on reading those what people mean by the comic book/superhero thing.  Are we talking about the writing itself? Or the content of the novel? Both?

[Xisor]

Not to worry, you're right to be suspicious too. Hell, I'm intrigued as to what my own thoughts will be on a re-read.

 

But in terms of parallel - I somewhat detected the same sort of sentiment re:Man of Steel - a film that started calmly and intriguing, but then descended into indestructibles smashing one another through buildings for a fairly long portion of the running time.

 

It's not strictly that nobody dies, as much as the stakes don't lend themselves to being... Sustained.

 

Not impossible to do, and not entirely a tall order either - but that whatever was going on in UE, it was a bit... of a dip from Abnett's customary efforts.

 

But it's easy to overstate that. Especially so long after the fact, and likely so long from our own re-reading of the events.

[Indefragable]

Although there are some very intriguing ideas about what Imperium Secundus could have been, I think this topic in someways illustrates what went wrong: they tried to make it more than it was.

 

The Horus Heresy was always about getting from Isstvaan to Terra. The narrative wandered and went astray both in-universe and on the meta writing focus level. If Imperium Secundus was more of a "hey, here was the safe harbor for a few legions while they figured out what the :cuss was going on around them," then perhaps it would have a far better less-is-more type of narrative.

 

The Unremembered Empire seems almost like it should have been released after the events of the entire Heresy series....a deep-cuts exploration of "oh by the way, here's what happened behind the scenes...kind of intriguing, eh?" But as it stands it feels fabricated and unnecessary, a needless filler that raises more questions than it does provide answers.

 

+++++++

 

As for super-hero fights, I think the idea is that things don't feel weighty. It's like an exhibition game rather than one against a division rival where playoff standings are on the line.

 

Compare to The Empire Strikes Back. Even though the audience can guess that one of the main protagonists of the series will probably survive a one-on-one encounter with one of the main villains, Luke does not get away unscarred. Far from it. Both psychologically and physically he is wounded. Likewise, we see the tiniest cracks in Vader's facade and the slightest hints of some human depth underneath the mask. So even though no one dies, the fight has meaning and weight and consequences down the road for the rest of the series.

 

Now look at Curze vs Lion+Guilliman. What exactly happened? The Lion is super pissed about yet another inconclusive fight against his brother and Guilliman gets worried about protecting Sanguinius (who ends up fighting Curze in his underwear anyways). The whole thing just feels superfluous and fan service more than having weight and meaning.

 

And one last example to close the loop: Khan vs Mortarion. A delicious stalemate of a fight where we feel the frustration on both sides of ying/yang differences equalized in a 1:1 engagement. That inconclusiveness is deliberate and has direct, tangible, consequences that inform the motivations of characters down the line (Path of Heaven and presumably something at the Siege).

[caladancid]

Although there are some very intriguing ideas about what Imperium Secundus could have been, I think this topic in someways illustrates what went wrong: they tried to make it more than it was.

 

The Horus Heresy was always about getting from Isstvaan to Terra. The narrative wandered and went astray both in-universe and on the meta writing focus level. If Imperium Secundus was more of a "hey, here was the safe harbor for a few legions while they figured out what the was going on around them," then perhaps it would have a far better less-is-more type of narrative.

 

The Unremembered Empire seems almost like it should have been released after the events of the entire Heresy series....a deep-cuts exploration of "oh by the way, here's what happened behind the scenes...kind of intriguing, eh?" But as it stands it feels fabricated and unnecessary, a needless filler that raises more questions than it does provide answers.

 

+++++++

 

As for super-hero fights, I think the idea is that things don't feel weighty. It's like an exhibition game rather than one against a division rival where playoff standings are on the line.

 

Compare to The Empire Strikes Back. Even though the audience can guess that one of the main protagonists of the series will probably survive a one-on-one encounter with one of the main villains, Luke does not get away unscarred. Far from it. Both psychologically and physically he is wounded. Likewise, we see the tiniest cracks in Vader's facade and the slightest hints of some human depth underneath the mask. So even though no one dies, the fight has meaning and weight and consequences down the road for the rest of the series.

 

Now look at Curze vs Lion+Guilliman. What exactly happened? The Lion is super pissed about yet another inconclusive fight against his brother and Guilliman gets worried about protecting Sanguinius (who ends up fighting Curze in his underwear anyways). The whole thing just feels superfluous and fan service more than having weight and meaning.

 

And one last example to close the loop: Khan vs Mortarion. A delicious stalemate of a fight where we feel the frustration on both sides of ying/yang differences equalized in a 1:1 engagement. That inconclusiveness is deliberate and has direct, tangible, consequences that inform the motivations of characters down the line (Path of Heaven and presumably something at the Siege).

 

Couldn't that lack of weight also come down to the characters themselves? I mean we know exactly where all four of those primarchs end up (or at least where Guilliman/Lion would hang out for 10k years).  That same thing doesn't apply to the Khan.  Although we know he's vanished he is significantly more of a mystery.  To use your Star Wars example, we don't need to guess where Curze or Sanguinius will end their stories.  If the point is that the characters didn't develop due to the fighting that's a fair point although I would say some development took place.  I thought Curze laughing after Sanguinius didn't kill him was great, and great for the fact that we in the audience knew why but the other primarchs would have no idea.

 

I don't mean to say I know the answer.  Should the authors just avoid them interacting? I think that would have taken something away from the series. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Yes, the authors absolutely should've avoided them interacting. You have Fulgrim vs. Ferrus, and Horus vs. Sanguinius, and honestly that should've been it. The rest should engage each other as commanders and generals.

[b1soul]

I like the idea of Imperium Secundus being about "heretical" (for both sides) diplomacy between the Duumvirate of Guilliman and the Lion and the Duumvirate of Mortarion and Perturabo. The near-coalescing of a third faction would have made for a fascinating lost chapter of the Heresy.

 

I would have removed Sanguinius from Imperium Secundus...trying to think where he would fit well

[Kelborn]

For me, the "super-hero" was referring to Vulkan vs Curze.

 

I mean, come on. It nearly felt like Hulk vs Loki 2.0

 

Or is it just me?

[carlisimo]

I know people who really enjoyed the primarch fights, so clearly there was room in the series for superhero-type books. It would’ve been nice to spread that out, though, and not put it all into this one story arc. Imperium Secundus feels very different because of it.

 

The idea itself is a good one. Prior to Index Astartes, I think all that’s said about the Ultramarines is that they were very far to the galactic south and didn’t even hear about the war until the Siege of Terra was underway. Index Astartes (mid/early-2000s) added the Word Bearers’ attack on Calth and Ventanus getting revenge on Colchis - but made it sound like Kor Phaeron was still on Calth while Lorgar was participating in the Siege of Terra. The Dark Angels didn’t have much of a role, either. In the early ‘90s it wasn’t even known which side they were on. Index Astartes made them loyalists, but put them and the Space Wolves too far away to do anything but arrive late to Terra.

 

So there was room to create a setting for the UM and DA to play in, but it had to keep them sidelined so they’d arrive late.

 

I would’ve liked the novels to play up Guilliman’s enjoyment of running an empire. Making him feel guilty about it was a lost opportunity to give him some nuance.

 

I’m also not sure how the Word Bearers and World Eaters ended up playing a relatively small role later in the arc.

[DukeLeto69]

Great topic and discussion brothers. Sadly work is horrendous right now so no time to post much on here these days. Many of you have put so much thought into this and I cannot hope to do the same but still wanted to add my two pence...

 

Anyone who has read my posts will know that I am a big Abnett fan. He is by far my favourite BL author and his books dominate my personal top ten. However, I am no fanboy and acknowledge when he has (on very few occasions IMO) dropped the ball...

 

Unremembered Empire is one of those. Perhaps there were reasons I don't know but it baffles me that the same guy can write what is, IMO, the best HH book in Know No Fear can then also write one of the worst (perhaps not THE worst but in the bottom five) in Unremembered Empire. It simply didn't "feel" like a HH novel (or even a BL novel). It felt like a DC/Marvel novel (not that I have ever read any). Like others I expected/hoped for political intrigue!

 

Saying that, the Imperium Secundus was, for me a fine concept and interesting addition to HH and I liked it. Heck it even features the best Gav Thorpe HH novel (IMO). However, it failed somewhat in execution and, as others have said, was too drawn out in real world timescales and thus lost focus and impact. It felt like it went on forever but in actual fact didn't cover that much of a page count. Ha ha I think it lasts longer in real world time then it did in-universe time!

 

Hadn't really considered the timing but now that other folks have pointed out then yep - coincides with the now well known problems/changes in process etc that BL went through due to GW organisation change etc.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Primarch interaction.

 

Could (Should) of been done a lot better.

 

Also the whole almost 3 primarchs to bring down curze thing and that's before the Angel got involved.(so in theory 4)

 

This was a chance for the loyalists to excel in an environment in which they held a good deal of the cards. And yet the plot twists and almost desperate "need to generate dramatic tension" were a bit to draw out or even the complete opposite.....

 

*cringe*

[karden00]

I know people who really enjoyed the primarch fights, so clearly there was room in the series for superhero-type books. It would’ve been nice to spread that out, though, and not put it all into this one story arc. Imperium Secundus feels very different because of it.

 

The idea itself is a good one. Prior to Index Astartes, I think all that’s said about the Ultramarines is that they were very far to the galactic south and didn’t even hear about the war until the Siege of Terra was underway. Index Astartes (mid/early-2000s) added the Word Bearers’ attack on Calth and Ventanus getting revenge on Colchis - but made it sound like Kor Phaeron was still on Calth while Lorgar was participating in the Siege of Terra. The Dark Angels didn’t have much of a role, either. In the early ‘90s it wasn’t even known which side they were on. Index Astartes made them loyalists, but put them and the Space Wolves too far away to do anything but arrive late to Terra.

 

So there was room to create a setting for the UM and DA to play in, but it had to keep them sidelined so they’d arrive late.

 

I would’ve liked the novels to play up Guilliman’s enjoyment of running an empire. Making him feel guilty about it was a lost opportunity to give him some nuance.

 

I’m also not sure how the Word Bearers and World Eaters ended up playing a relatively small role later in the arc.

But Guilliman had effectively already run an empire long before Imperium Secundus. Before the Big E showed up (I know KNF was responsible for making this clear) he had already consolidated much of the 500 worlds (a retcon I do of course ennnjoyyy) and seemed happy, capable, and prepared to join the Great Crusade. The implication being that he ahd already established a functioning realm. 

[Scribe]

 

Abnett made a joke out of Nighthaunter.

He didn't. In fact, Abnett is the only writer who showed murderous potential of Curze. Unremembered Empire' Curze not crying and moaning about future, he is a threat to whole population of Macragge.

 

 

Nah. Between him and Kyme's literal obsession/infatuation with Vulkan, Curze was ruined. Nobody but ADB should have written him.

[Xisor]

@Indefragable: I now wish that, amongst several changes I'd like to the Heresy (Kor Phaeron and Erebus kill Lorgar), this had happened: Primarchs got *mangled*.

 

Not in a gratuitous sort of way, but as there's very little killing to be done, and some of them obviously get horrendously mentally ravaged by events (Dorn, Vulkan, Russ), it makes a bit of thematic sense for Guilliman to become more machine than superman.

 

It would also dovetail well with Cawl's role down the line.

 

And parallel nicely with Calgar.

 

The Lion, Corax & Russ too had a 'sufficiently free timeline'.

 

(Russ losing an eye seems almost too subtle for Space Wolf themes!)

 

And it would be viable for Perturabo too.

 

The whole lot could leave the Heresy barely alive. (Which in fairness, Gav did touch on that in his Russ/Corax novella.)

 

Sometimes, my every recommendation and wish is that everyone does everything that Chris Wraight does brilliantly.

 

Make things heartfelt, and complex, and muddy, and messy, but have soulful meaning too.

 

Jim approached it in Fear To Tread, but somehow fell short. But it almost worked neatly.

 

Surprisingly, I felt Annandale managed to really claw *a lot* of the missed opportunity back in 'Ruinstorm'.

 

Which was nice.

 

---

 

@Scribe: if you view Kyme's Curze/Vulkan story as a 30k fanfic on the theme of Batman vs Superman, you'll find the HH Salamanders stories make a heck of a lot more sense. (Insofar as why they exist as they do and why they are what they are.)

[Indefragable]

@Indefragable: I now wish that, amongst several changes I'd like to the Heresy (Kor Phaeron and Erebus kill Lorgar), this had happened: Primarchs got *mangled*.

 

Not in a gratuitous sort of way, but as there's very little killing to be done, and some of them obviously get horrendously mentally ravaged by events (Dorn, Vulkan, Russ), it makes a bit of thematic sense for Guilliman to become more machine than superman.

 

It would also dovetail well with Cawl's role down the line.

 

And parallel nicely with Calgar.

 

The Lion, Corax & Russ too had a 'sufficiently free timeline'.

 

(Russ losing an eye seems almost too subtle for Space Wolf themes!)

 

And it would be viable for Perturabo too.

 

The whole lot could leave the Heresy barely alive. (Which in fairness, Gav did touch on that in his Russ/Corax novella.)

 

Sometimes, my every recommendation and wish is that everyone does everything that Chris Wraight does brilliantly.

 

Make things heartfelt, and complex, and muddy, and messy, but have soulful meaning too.

 

Jim approached it in Fear To Tread, but somehow fell short. But it almost worked neatly.

 

Surprisingly, I felt Annandale managed to really claw *a lot* of the missed opportunity back in 'Ruinstorm'.

 

Which was nice.

 

---

 

@Scribe: if you view Kyme's Curze/Vulkan story as a 30k fanfic on the theme of Batman vs Superman, you'll find the HH Salamanders stories make a heck of a lot more sense. (Insofar as why they exist as they do and why they are what they are.)

 

I had a relative who who took kendo from some somebody in Japan (I'm too ignorant on the subject to know more) and one of the things he used to always tell us was how utterly destructive actual sword combat was back in the day. Our modern cinema (and by "modern" I mean since the 1900's) likes to depict sword fights as one person cleanly besting the other and walking away in an "all of nothing" sort of way. In reality, especially in the samurai duels, fingers, eyes, ribs, and chunks of flesh all over were routinely lopped off even in a "clear" victory for the winner. Think of a sports match: how often do shutouts (one side wins 5-0 or such) actually happen? Usually it's 5-3 or such. Likewise, when you pit forces of the cosmic proportions of Primarchs, it seems strange that even the victor would emerge with all fingers and toes intact.

 

<shrug>

 

It's a missed opportunity and at this point it's just part of the setting as much as power armor body proportions (how do their thighs fit in those things?)

[b1soul]

The quality of Kyme's prose mirrors the quality of BvS

[mc warhammer]

i’d have been happy with them just doing something with it. as most have said; nice idea...lots of potential...little pay off

 

i would find it really hard to describe IS as a story to someone else.

[Fedor]

On the subject of the Primarchs getting badly injured/mangled etc  I think something like that being the reason why Perturabo finally gives in to Chaos could be done interestingly.

[DarkChaplain]

The quality of Kyme's prose mirrors the quality of BvS

 

I find comments like these strange. They don't contribute anything to the discussion at hand, nor are they particularly interesting. It just strikes me as adding vitriol into a conversation that wasn't really needed, or relevant.

 

We all know that certain authors aren't as widely favored as others. Do we really need to harp on it in perpetuity?

 

----------------------

 

As for the superhero angle:

 

For me, The Unremembered Empire tried too hard in showcasing Primarch power levels. It had long, drawn-out battle scenes between them, where Vulkan goes fully insane Hulk level, Curze slaughters untold folks, and saving Guilliman and the Lion (iirc) via what looked like a deus ex machina felt incredibly lazy.

 

The book went to great lengths to make those action scenes front and center for the second half of the book (again, also one of the shortest books in the series, by a good margin). For a while there, it basically abandoned the plot in favor of action setpieces you can usually find in superhero comics.

Adding not just a fourth Primarch in Vulkan, but also the Perpetuals, one of which felt incredibly out of place (to me) for the setting, and the magical immortal-killer kryptonite/fulgurite, and another awfully convenient way to get Curze out of the picture that resulted in an "you've not seen the last of me, brothers!" ending.... It was just very poor, with lots of factors adding up to make it feel like it didn't belong. It seemed to lack a certain sense of gravity, like it was uprooted from the Heresy and moving into Michael Bay territory.

 

Explosive action for it's own sake, just to then, after the credits, remember that "hey, this big premise of the entire book we already commissioned as a cover? we have to squeeze that in here somehow, too".

[b1soul]

Saying "the quality of Kyme's prose mirrors the quality of BvS" is hardly vitriol. Quite a few people liked BvS. A lot of people did not.

[Roomsky]

I would be so very happy if I liked Kyme's work as much as I liked BvS.

 

More to the topic, I thought the Imperium Secundus stuff was the best part of Deathfire. While I don't like his Vulkan, Kyme has a nice way of understating the other primarchs into more believable portraits than some authors offer up, even if I prefer their works overall. It probably applies to most authors, but I tend to prefer measured conversations anyway, and I don;t find Kyme too bad at them. 

 

So hey, at least IS gave me a portion I sort of liked in a book I otherwise loathed.

[Tymell]

 

I had a relative who who took kendo from some somebody in Japan (I'm too ignorant on the subject to know more) and one of the things he used to always tell us was how utterly destructive actual sword combat was back in the day. Our modern cinema (and by "modern" I mean since the 1900's) likes to depict sword fights as one person cleanly besting the other and walking away in an "all of nothing" sort of way. In reality, especially in the samurai duels, fingers, eyes, ribs, and chunks of flesh all over were routinely lopped off even in a "clear" victory for the winner. Think of a sports match: how often do shutouts (one side wins 5-0 or such) actually happen? Usually it's 5-3 or such. Likewise, when you pit forces of the cosmic proportions of Primarchs, it seems strange that even the victor would emerge with all fingers and toes intact.

 

<shrug>

 

It's a missed opportunity and at this point it's just part of the setting as much as power armor body proportions (how do their thighs fit in those things?)

 

 

And now I can't help but think of Lion and Curze duelling as King Arthur and the Black Knight :p

 

Curze: Come here!

 

Lion: What are you going to do, bleed on me?

 

Curze: I'm invincible!

 

Lion: You're a loony.

[Xisor]

So hey, at least IS gave me a portion I sort of liked in a book I otherwise loathed.

That's one of my favoured ways of easing up when I find myself fool-who-follows-foolishly ranting about some ultimately foolish thing.

 

Thatvis: even books I dislike passionately - such as "Brothers of the Snake" - I nevertheless find things I absolutely and overwhelmingly admire. Case in point: BotS has some utterly charming scenes that, more or less, involve two Space Marines having a long walk on a beach.

 

It's wonderful. (I've chuntered [and probably chundered] at length in disgust at that book otherwise.)

 

(Similarly potent scenes from both dissimilar books include the refuelling scene in 'Star of Damocles' and "I had a dog, once" from 'Blood Reaver', or the Fall of the Antrodamicus in 'Know No Fear', or the Marine's arrival in the short story 'Kraken', or any "I am the Hammer" sequence from Ben in Grey Knight or Hammer of Daemons.)

 

But whilst I can attest to the awfulness at length, it's very easy to overlook those compelling details - and frustratingly some authors can give brilliant passages and woeful passages in the same damn passage.

 

(For my tastes, these tend to be authors such as Ben Counter and Graham McNeill, and sometimes Nick [though equally I love some of his work unabashedly - Scorched Earth, Forgotten Sons, Artefacts, Firedrake, his entire Fantasy offering] - all astonishingly readable and very accessible writers, but just jagged and discordant enough versus my own [and other's] tastes to have me moaning in irritation rather than in some sort of ecstatic paroxysm of paradox.)

 

And so I find it really important to focus down on the things I did enjoy. Because they are definitely there, and definitely wonderful.

 

(Incidentally, I had no issue whatsoever with Blood Reaver, obviously very enjoyed, just that that scene is of extraordinarily particular note and bears highlighting amongst other powerful scenes.)

 

---

 

Did Laurie Or Andy Smilie write much IS stuff? I don't think I read or listened to Laurie's Pharos short, nor Andy's Herald of Sanguinius, but they both have an exceptional ability (some might say delightfully spiteful skill) for filling in blanks and slyly, even slightly, 'missed' opportunities.

 

That they both write cracking stories is handy too.

 

---

 

Speaking of all that, where did Guy's Lucretio Corvo 'At a drinks reception' story fit? I remember him being an excellent cameo in Pharos, and (like Guy's Salamanders stories) could entirely be said to be excellent in his handling of the IS tone (a sort of frustrated civilisation in contrast to pre-HH, HH and 40k).

 

I digress.

 

Doubly so because I'm now thinking of Dark Imperium as Imperium Tertius.

 

Tlon Uqbar, Orbis Imperium Terrius...

[Moonreaper666]

Doesn't the breaking of the Lion's sword by Guilliman have consenquences later down the road?

 

I thought it is why Guilliman did not let Cypher meet the Emperor?