Are allies a faux pas ?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I hate to burst your bubble but the basic guardsman is better than a Black Knight for the points... orders are a thing now .

[Interrogator Stobz]

No need to worry about the bubble.

 

But thanks for the heads up. ;)

[FlamingDeth]

I imagine that a guard commander accidentally barking orders to a marine detachment would be a...vox pas? Shut up, I'm hilarious!

 

I like when allies are used thematically instead of being powergamey. I acknowledge that it will never happen in a tournament setting but that's part of the reason I don't go to tournaments.

[D3L]

Yeah, allies are a definite "I dont think we'll be playing" moment

[PeteySödes]

Yeah, allies are a definite "I dont think we'll be playing" moment

Yes, yes you’re a crusty old gamer, asked and answered. Though I am cuirious honestly if that’s mostly you (which is totally cool), your gaming group, or regional meta etc?

[Marshal Rohr]

I wouldn't trust someone with allies in a pick up game. Pick up games are like dates, blind ones can be terrible or awesome, but given the number of awful people in the 'dating pool' (powergamers and metagamers) its more than likely to be terrible.

[MARK0SIAN]

I think even in a pick up game it’s pretty easy to identify whether someone is exploiting allies or using them thematically. If they’ve got just knights and the loyal 32 then it’s a clear exploit. Or if they’ve got a weird mix of the very best units from 3 detachments then it’s probably cheesy.

 

But if they’ve got a good general mix, tied together with basing or paint schemes and they haven’t just chosen the best units from the codex then they’re probably not doing it for waac reasons.

 

All that is pretty evident from a glance at their forces and so I’d base my judgement on that rather than just saying I wouldn’t play allies in a pick up game or wouldn’t play against them full stop.

[Gederas]

Yeah, allies are a definite "I dont think we'll be playing" moment

So you'd not play against someone who's playing Khorne Daemonkin (World Eaters + Khorne Daemons)? Or any of the Daemonkin?

 

Rude

[Panzer]

It's also hard to NOT exploit an Astra Militarum detachment if you want to ally in some regular dudes just because of how efficient they are. Your only option to not exploit them would be to go all-in and also take expensive units, effectively reducing how efficient they are at generating CP, or to take a Patrol detachment and don't get any additional CP at all. It's ridiculous that you have to actively pay attention to not exploit them even if you just want to add some flavour to your army. 

[Beams]

Wow, I mean, I have sisters of Silence to go with my sisters of battle. I guess I'm the devil though. It'll be no fun playing with me, becuase I wanted plastic models.

[Harrowmaster]

Depends on the context. The loyal 32 plus knights and a White Scars' outrider/vanguard detachment would be WAAC. An Ordo Malleus inquisitor, some acolytes, storm troopers and Grey Knights wouldn't be imo.  

[FlamingDeth]

Yeah, allies are a definite "I dont think we'll be playing" moment

So I show up to the FLGS ready to play. My army is themed as a desperate IG last stand, portrayed by a guard gunline huddled behind an aegis defense line, saved at the last moment by the heroic arrival of astartes, portrayed by deepstriking marine units, mostly in drop pods with the possible addition of terminators and/or jump infantry. Half to two thirds of the army are units no competitive player would ever take. Do you play against this army?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would.

[PeteySödes]

 

Yeah, allies are a definite "I dont think we'll be playing" moment

So I show up to the FLGS ready to play. My army is themed as a desperate IG last stand, portrayed by a guard gunline huddled behind an aegis defense line, saved at the last moment by the heroic arrival of astartes, portrayed by deepstriking marine units, mostly in drop pods with the possible addition of terminators and/or jump infantry. Half to two thirds of the army are units no competitive player would ever take. Do you play against this army?

 

 

Based on his previous replies I'm not sure any minds are going to be changed or open to nuanced discussions. At the end of the day you have to choose who you want to play.

[Panzer]

Let the grumpy people be grumpy. It's clear that he just generalizes things and that there are lists with allies he would play against unless he wants to be exceptionally unreasonable, how ever then you can't ... well ... reason with him anyway so no point in trying obviously. :P

[Claws and Effect]

I'm doing an Eldar/Harlequins army.

 

I chose Lugganath for my Craftworld because the fluff indicates that they are the mostly likely Craftworld to show up with Harlequins in tow.

 

Basically, if I can justify it with the fluff without having to really reach I'll do allied detachments. If I have to do mental gymnastics to explain why they're working together it's off the table (literally).

[FlamingDeth]

I know that I'm probably not going to change his mind, it was mostly just to illustrate that allies can definitely be fluffy and non-cheesy, they're not all taken as CP batteries. That particular kind of "slice of battlefield" setup I'd also one I've been a fan of as long as it's been playable, and I don't mean 6th edition and after, I also mean pretending that inquisitorial storm troopers from the witch hunters codex were line guardsmen because of the special rules that allowed them to be fielded along side marines.

[Interrogator Stobz]

+++Righto, regardless of right or wrong, the discussion of who will play whom and whether it’s good or bad is not constructive and therefore in breach of the BnC rules. Please get back to your usual great discussion +++

 

Carry on.

[Ratherdashing]

I don't know if this is a UK vs US thing, but in my experience, if I can get an evening off, and I can find someone else with an evening off, and we both can find babysitters, and the game store is open, etc etc etc...I will play them and have a blast because I get to roll dice and push around my models. Whether they have fluffy-but-also-cheesy allies, or an unpainted lame netlist, or even a game I played against a handful of unpainted, barely assembled Battlewagons being used as counts-as Lifts Droppas with their unchargeable, long range auto mortal wounds.

 

The difficulty of getting a game in has made me a lot less picky about who I played and made it easier to enjoy games even against different types of players. Some people are ok with allies and some are not, but (1) don't begrudge people who play the game differently from you and (2) maybe even play against those people. As long as you both behave decently, your different playstyles may make less of an impact than you think.

[Panzer]

It's not a UK vs US thing. It's a different people enjoying different things thing.

[Ratherdashing]

It's not a UK vs US thing. It's a different people enjoying different things thing.

What I meant was that it's not easy enough to arrange games that I feel like I can afford to refuse games if it's not exactly the type of game I want to play. And I wasn't sure if the game is sufficiently prolific in the UK that people can just walk away from one table and find another one.

[Panzer]

 

It's not a UK vs US thing. It's a different people enjoying different things thing.

What I meant was that it's not easy enough to arrange games that I feel like I can afford to refuse games if it's not exactly the type of game I want to play. And I wasn't sure if the game is sufficiently prolific in the UK that people can just walk away from one table and find another one.

 

 

Yeah but that's different from individual to individual as well and there are some who have difficulty arranging games and think the exact opposite of you BECAUSE it's so difficult to get a game in. It has nothing to do with nationality. ;)

[Marshal Rohr]

Why would you rather not play at all than play a bad game? You don't eat rotten meat just because you missed lunch.

[Finkmilkana]

Why would you rather not play at all than play a bad game? You don't eat rotten meat just because you missed lunch.

I don’t don’t think he proposes to eat rotten meat, more like eating slightly stale bread instead of waiting for cake that might not arrive.

 

In general, i think the most important thing is that both sides expect the same kind of game (whether that is their most preferred type is a different question). So it’s just important to talk to your opponent beforehand and bring a list that fits it. And that fit is usually independent of allies, as there are (comparatively) competetive mono codex lists for nearly all factions. Maybe they would be even better with the loyal 32 added in, but if those 5 command points are all that tips the balance, then both lists where very strong to begin with.

On the other hand, most fluffy lists with small imperial factions are still kinda soupy. I mean, I cannot think of any larger lore battle where not at least some different (sub-) factions where involved in one of the sides (though xenos often have them backed into one codex, I.e. tau with kroot allies) and my poor inquisition is either way legally almost unplayable without soup at the moment....

[Khornestar]

I love allies. World Eaters + Daemons + Renegade Guard = awesome fun. Imperial factions fighting together is awesome fun. I prefer not to play against xenos as a matter of personal taste, regardless of allies.

 

I like the system in general. I preferred the allies matrix of 6th edition, though. The narrative aspect of allies was somewhat enforced by the varying levels of alliance/trust. I could run chaos space marines and guard, running all the units from the latter because *of course* the real traitor guard list gets so few army list options. No cross-codex shenanigans, but the ability to use all my models in the way I choose,

 

I don’t really care about running broken combos or playing against them, because neither really happen since I play so seldom.