Question on "Codex-Compliant" Successor Chapter Structures

[Berzul]

Hey guys.

 

So, I am working on re-founding my successors into a new successor chapter. One that is hopefully better thought out than my current chapter.

My main idea here is to make them codex compliant, integrating the DW and RW into regular company structures.

 

DW is easy enough. Just place them in the first company, where they belong.

The RW, on the other hand, is a different story.

 

Currently I plan a second company that will have its two Assault Squads in Ravenwing form, with 6 bikes, an attack bike, and a speeder, in a 10-tactical unit size for each squadron.

 

But, a 3-attack bike unit, or a Drak Shroud, or the Black Knights, or the Talon Master.... how would you suggest one could go about fitting them into a more codex compliant structure?

 

Thank you for your suggestions.

[G8Keeper]

Maybe go with the Hexagrammaton?  They are X company but also heed the call of the Ravenwing?  Nice and fluffy.

[Berzul]

I like it, and will definetly incorporate it!
 

But, I am still left with the question of in which company should this units go.

 

I was thinking of placing the Black Knights in a squad of 7 with the Dark Shroud as 10-man formation, into the 1st company, as a formation of veteran brothers but specialized in mobile warfare; for instance.

[Berzul]

In fact, if I can, this is what I have so far, in terms of re-organizing my chapter (with the models I have either already assembled of pending assembly), through a new paint scheme and some more work into them:

CHAPTER COMMAND

Chapter Master

 

ARMOURY

Master of the Armoury

 

LIRARIUM

Chief Librarian

1st Epistolary (in TDA, placed in the 1st company)

2nd Epistolary (on a Bike, placed with the 8th company)

Codicier (under the Chief Librarian, as part of the Librarius Conclave)

Lexicanium (under the Chief Librarian, as part of the Librarius Conclave)

 

RECLUSIAM

Master of Rites

Reclusiarch (in TDA, placed in the 1st company)

 

1ST COMPANY

Master of the 1st Company (in TDA)

 

Company Command Squad (DW Champion, DW Apothecary, DW Ancient)

 

1st Squad (10 DW Knights)

2nd Squad (2-Combat Squads of DW Terminators)

3rd Squad (5 DW Terminators)

4th Squad (5 DW Terminators

5th Squad (5 DW Terminators)

10th Squad (5 Veterans, with Swords and Combat Shields)

 

1st Company Venerable Dreadnought

 

2ND COMPANY

Master of the 2nd Company

 

1st Lieutenant

2nd Lieutenant (Primaris Marine)

Company Command Squad (Champion, Apothecary, Ancient)

 

1st Tactical  (10-man)

2nd Tactical (10-man)

3rd Tactical (10-man)

 

1st Devastator Squad (10-man, plasma cannon specialists)

2nd Devastator Squad (10-man, missile launcher specialists)

 

1st Assault Squad (6 bikers, 1 attack bike, 1 speeder)

2nd Assault Squad (6 bikers, 1 attack bike, 1 speeder)

 

2nd Company Dreadnought

 

8TH COMPANY

Master of the 8th Company (in Jump Pack)

 

8th Company Talonmaster

Company Command Squad (RW Champion, RW Apothecary, RW Ancient)

 

1st Squad, Company Black Knights and Darkshroud (10-man)

 

2nd Squad, three attack bikes, two speeders

 

3rd Assault Squad (jump packs)

4th Assault Squad (jump packs)

 

10TH COMPANY

1st Scout Squad (10 man, boltguns)

2nd Scout Squad (10 man, boltguns

3rd Scout Squad (10 man, sniper rifles)

 

SUPPORT VEHICLES

Razorback

Razorback

Drop Pod

Predator

Whirlwind

Whirlwind

Dark Talon

 

 

that is all I have, organized as a chapter, trying to remain as close to codex compliant as possible.

[G8Keeper]

I like it. Using the 8th Reserve Assault Company makes sense.

[Berzul]

I like it. Using the 8th Reserve Assault Company makes sense.

 

Thanks! Yeah, its what made the most sense to me.

 

Companys 2 through to 5 are full companies, that have their own command positions filled by the Command Squad, the 2 Lieutenants, and the Company Master, so that left me no place to put the Talonmaster; and the two assault companies as bike squads, following the Ravenwing Attack Squadron formation, of 6 bikes, one attack bike and one speeder.

 

So, I figured what would make the most sense would be to place the RW command and the Black Knights, as the Command Formation and First Squadron of the 8th Assault-Dedicated Company. The RW Command plus the Talon Master fills the 5 roles of the Company Command, with a Master in Jump Pack to lead it. Then, the 7 Black Knights with the 3 crew-men of the Darkshroud fill the 10-man size of the 1st squadron, and act as the best of the assault marines of the chapter, in the forefront of the first assault-centered company.

 

Being a reserve company, the best of the assault marines keep getting placed in the 4 battle companies, of course. But then these 10 guys, they truly are the best of the best, and rather than moving into the battle companies, they remain in the 8th company to serve as its leading force, veterans and experts in mobile warfare, to lead the company and better serve the chapter.

 

Joining the Battle Companies in war, when needed, of course.

[G8Keeper]

How would you feel about a Sammael version leading the 8th Company?

[Berzul]

Can't really bring Sammael in with a successor... But, should a friendly opponent allow me a named character's alter ego in my Chapter, then SURE! Would be a great addition!

[G8Keeper]

Many people would in my experience.  have you got company markings sorted or are you going with standard DA heraldry?

[Berzul]

Man, thank you for the interest and feedback!!

 

So, the color scheme I have planned is dark green on the helmet, chest, arms, lower legs and backpack. Then a sort of winter grey on the shoulder pads, thighs and feet.

 

The heraldry will be the Dark Angels sigil, but with red wings behind a white sword.

 

I plan on marking the squads by gothic numbers, following the traditional method. Same with battle role heraldry (tactical, veteran, devastator, assault).

 

Regular battle brothers with green helmets and green kneepads.

Sergeants with grey helmets and grey kneepads.

Veterans again in green, but with their robes to mark them.

Veteran sergeants with grey on helmet and knee pads, with robes.

 

Then lieutenants with grey helmets and a stripe on top of them with the company colors. Masters with winged green helms.

 

As for company colors, I plan on following the codex again. Silver and gold for first and second company, grey for the 8th.

 

Terminators and bikerd would follow an application of the same theme. No "special" colors like bone and black.

 

Bikes would be brown with company color edges, or black (in the case of the black knights) with company color edges.

[Berzul]

Something like this (as crude as the painting tool is when showing what can be done, it gives a notion of the colors)

 

Hidden Content

[G8Keeper]

That works really well! Shall we expect a test mini soon? Hey I love DA and what people can do with successor chapters, it's something I have put on the back burner myself as I couldn't justify the special characters but wanted to take them

[ValourousHeart]

I like it. Using the 8th Reserve Assault Company makes sense.

 

Except that the Ravenwing is a battle company, not a reserve company.

And Dark Angels are Codex Compliant except for the structure of their 1st and 2nd battle companies.

So if you have other plans or the 2nd battle company, then make your RW Successor the 3rd, 4th or 5th Battle Company.

 

Any discussion of how the Dark Angels are Codex Compliant and the composition of the reserve companies will jump this conversation way to close to the ugly argument about if there are DA bike and speeder squadrons that are not RW.

[Berzul]

 

I like it. Using the 8th Reserve Assault Company makes sense.

 

Except that the Ravenwing is a battle company, not a reserve company.

And Dark Angels are Codex Compliant except for the structure of their 1st and 2nd battle companies.

So if you have other plans or the 2nd battle company, then make your RW Successor the 3rd, 4th or 5th Battle Company.

 

Any discussion of how the Dark Angels are Codex Compliant and the composition of the reserve companies will jump this conversation way to close to the ugly argument about if there are DA bike and speeder squadrons that are not RW.

 

 

Yeah, but this is a successor chapter.

 

Despite them having the speciality training and skill (and the keyword) of the Ravenwing, they are not Ravenwing. The chapter has no Ravenwing, and no Deathwing, in the form that the Dark Angels have them. My first company will be mostly terminators, but not only terminators, and my assault squads will drive bikes and speeders, ut they will still be assault marines.

 

Having one battle company as purely bikers, would not work with what I am trying to make here.

[Kinstryfe]

I actually really like what you're doing here, for a couple reasons. One, it fits with the newer PH DA fluff, which is great. It also makes sense that some Unforgiven would probably want to appear as Codex compliant as possible, just as a sort of smoke screen to say "see, we're not all weirdos who can't read charts!" I also almost think having the RW be a reserve company makes sense if you're going to have them be doled out a unit at a time instead of working as a whole company. Overall, I like it.

[Berzul]

Thanks!!

 

Yeah, it's kind of what I am going for. A very "ok, ok, yeah, we are DA successors, but we actually follow the rules of the Codex, right? yeah! Nothing to see here! Move along, move along!" kind of Chapter.

 

What I cannot figure out, though is.... what would make more sense.

 

To have the Assault Squads be in the Battle Companies, and concentrate all of my ravenwing in the 8th Company, or to keep to my idea of having ravenwing attack squadrons in my battle company, with the 8th company full of a mix of assault marines, ravenwing bikers, and led by an elite squad of Black Knights with their own support vehicle, as a squadron.

[Steel Company]

I like where you are going with this. Before I really got going with my DIY chapter in the direction they are going now, I had elements of the Death Wing and Raven Wings built into each of the battle companies, it looked good on the table top and felt good to play as it felt very much "combined arms".

[G8Keeper]

Thanks!!

 

Yeah, it's kind of what I am going for. A very "ok, ok, yeah, we are DA successors, but we actually follow the rules of the Codex, right? yeah! Nothing to see here! Move along, move along!" kind of Chapter.

 

What I cannot figure out, though is.... what would make more sense.

 

To have the Assault Squads be in the Battle Companies, and concentrate all of my ravenwing in the 8th Company, or to keep to my idea of having ravenwing attack squadrons in my battle company, with the 8th company full of a mix of assault marines, ravenwing bikers, and led by an elite squad of Black Knights with their own support vehicle, as a squadron.

 

I think from a codex compliance standpoint keeping the attack squadrons in the battle company AND 8th company is the way to go.  I wouldn't advocate the "they just use jump packs too" road though.  Maybe an attack squadron and assault squad in each battle company and a 50:50 split in the 8th?  Company vets role is taken by Black Knights in 8th?

[Berzul]

You know what? That actually makes a lot of sense.

 

One RW squadron and one Assault Squad, on each Battle Company, with reserves for both coming in from the 8th company, which is in turn led by the Black Knights.

 

Thanks! I'll go for this idea, then. Thank you!

Lets see how it turns out. I am still planning the squads and everything, and separating the miniatures for all. So, this will take time, but I'll keep you guys posted on my progress.

 

 

To update the info, the idea would be to structure the chapter as follows:

 

CHAPTER COMMAND

Hidden Content

Chapter Master (based on Azrael)

 

ARMOURY

Hidden Content

Master of the Armoury (Techmarine with Servoharness, Power Axe and Boltgun)

Support Vehicles

Razorback with twin assault cannons and storm bolter

Razorback with twin assault cannons and storm bolter

Drop Pod with storm bolter

Predator with twin lascannon and lascannon sponsons

Whirlwind with castellan missile launchers

Whirlwind with castellan missile launchers

Dark Talon

 

LIRARIUM

Hidden Content

Chief Librarian (based on Ezekiel)

1st Epistolary (in terminator armor, with a force stave)

2nd Epistolary (on a space marine bike, with a force sword)

Codicier (with a force sword)

Lexicanium (with a force stave)

 

RECLUSIAM

Hidden Content

Master of Rites (with crozius arcanum and power fist)

Reclusiarch (in terminator armor, with crozius arcanum and storm bolter)

 

1ST COMPANY

Hidden Content

Master of the 1st Company (in terminator armor, with relic blade and storm bolter)

 

Company Command Squad

Champion

Apothecary

Ancient (with powerfist and storm bolter)

 

1st Squad (10 Knights)

2nd Squad (10 terminators, 5 thunder hammers and storm shields, 5 power fists and storm bolters, 2 cyclone missile launchers)

3rd Squad (5 Terminators, power sword and storm bolter, 3 powerfists and storm bolters, a chain fist and storm bolter, an assault cannon and power fist)

4th Squad (5 Terminators, power sword and storm bolter, 3 powerfists and storm bolters, a chain fist and storm bolter, an assault cannon and power fist)

5th Squad (5 Terminators, power sword and storm bolter, 3 powerfists and storm bolters, a chain fist and storm bolter, an assault cannon and power fist)

9th Squad (5 veterans, sergeant with power sword and combat shield, four veterans with chainswords and combat shields)

 

1st Venerable Dreadnought (with close combat weapon, heavy flamer, twin lascannon)

2nd Venerable Dreadnought (with close combat weapon, storm bolter, twin lascannon)

 

2ND COMPANY

Hidden Content

Master of the 2nd Company (with relic blade and storm bolter)

1st Lieutenant (with power sword and storm bolter)

2nd Lieutenant (Primaris Marine, with master crafted auto-bolt rifle)

Company Command Squad

Champion with blade of caliban and combat shield

Apothecary with chainsword and narthecium

Company Ancient with chainsword

 

1st Tactical  (10-man, chainsword and plasma pistol, plasma gun)

2nd Tactical (10-man, chainsword and plasma pistol, plasma gun)

3rd Tactical (10-man, chainsword and plasma pistol, plasma gun)

 

1st Devastator Squad (10-man, four plasma cannon specialists)

2nd Devastator Squad (10-man, four missile launcher specialists)

 

1st Assault Squad (ravenwing attack squadron of 6 bikers with two plasma guns and a chainsword sergeant, 1 attack bike with heavy bolter, 1 speeder with typhoon missile launcher and heavy bolter)

2nd Assault Squad (10-man, with jump packs, power axe and plasma pistol sergeant, two plasma pistols)

 

8TH COMPANY

Hidden Content

Master of the 8th Company (in a space marine bike, based on Sammael)

Talonmaster

Company Command Squad

Champion

Apothecary

Ancient

 

1st Squadron (7 Black Knights, power sword in the huntmaster, and Darkshroud with an assault cannon)

2nd Squadron (ravenwing attack squadron of 6 bikers with two grav guns and a chainsword sergeant, 1 attack bike with heavy bolter, 1 speeder with typhoon missile launcher and heavy bolter)

4th Squadron (three multi melta attack bikes and two speeders with typhoon missile launchers and heavy bolters)

6th Squad (10-man, with jump packs, power axe and plasma pistol sergeant, two flamers)

 

10TH COMPANY

Hidden Content

1st Scout Squad (10 man, a chain sword, boltguns and a heavy bolter)

2nd Scout Squad (10 man, a chain sword, boltguns and a heavy bolter)

3rd Scout Squad (10 man, camo cloaks, sniper rifles and a missile launcher)

 

[Othniel's Blade]

I like that last idea: blends the ideas of the DA structure, the Hex, and the Codex well. RW secretly in each company, called out at times of need, while also training future assault/bikers lends itself well to the tiered knowledge/society.

 

I wish I'd thought of it.

[Berzul]

Its a really good idea. I love it!

 

Thanks, Brother, for the suggestion. It immediately made sense, and have incorporated into my chapter structure.

 

I've planned for the 8th company to have a Black Knight's squadron at the frontlines as the 1st Squadron, then 2 Ravenwing Attack Squadrons as the 2nd and 3rd, followed up by 2 Attack Bike Squadrons as the 4th and 5th. Finally, squads 6th through to 10th, as Assault Marines, wether with Jump Packs or as Drop Pod Assault Squads.

 

A good 50:50 ratio of RW and Assault Marines.
All led by a Sammael-style Company Master, and a command of 5 marines. 2 as a Talonmaster, and the full Command Squad.

The Black Knights serving as the leading veterans, that train, mentor, and try the aspiring battle brothers, before allowing them to advance to the Battle Companies.

 

This 8th Reserve Company would act as the Hexagrammaton, following protocols to jump to the defense of the chapter and the pursuit of its foes. Having squadrons of bikes and units of assault marines, spread in 1:1 ratios across all the battle companies, and being able to act as a full battle force that runs strong through the entire chapter.

 

I am LOVING  this concept.

[G8Keeper]

Happy to help Berzul. Cracking idea that has got my hobby juices flowing again so thank you!

[Berzul]

I am now figuring out what to do with my First Company.

It is both Codex Compliant and the Dark Angels, to have your First Company entirely in TDA. So, my question is, where do you put the veterans?

 

I'm thinking of having the veterans in squads of 5, one per Battle Company, to make 20 veterans across all four Battle Companies (with 10 more, as Black Knights, in the 8th Company). Lore wise, they would be squads paired with the Command Squad and Lieutenants of each company, making a sort of 11th Squad inside the Battle Company composition.

 

That is, that you would have 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads, 1 ravenwing attack squadron, 1 assault squad, and at the lead you'd have a Master, a Chaplain, supported by 10 veterans, with 5 being a veteran squad, 2 being lieutenants, and 3 forming the command squad.

 

How would you think this would hold as a chapter formation?

[Kinstryfe]

I am now figuring out what to do with my First Company.

It is both Codex Compliant and the Dark Angels, to have your First Company entirely in TDA. So, my question is, where do you put the veterans?

 

I'm thinking of having the veterans in squads of 5, one per Battle Company, to make 20 veterans across all four Battle Companies (with 10 more, as Black Knights, in the 8th Company). Lore wise, they would be squads paired with the Command Squad and Lieutenants of each company, making a sort of 11th Squad inside the Battle Company composition.

 

That is, that you would have 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads, 1 ravenwing attack squadron, 1 assault squad, and at the lead you'd have a Master, a Chaplain, supported by 10 veterans, with 5 being a veteran squad, 2 being lieutenants, and 3 forming the command squad.

 

How would you think this would hold as a chapter formation?

How about having each Company have it's Veterans as normal, with the 1st Company being fully veterans, but continue the theme you're doing with ravenwing and have the deathwing members be spread out across the chapter as well. Effectively, all deathwing will be veterans but all veterans won't be deathwing.

 

So your 1st Company will be 100 Veterans, of which say 40± are deathwing. They'll wear whatever your colors for that are as well as TDA, and the other 60± Marines function as normal vanguard and sternguard. Then maybe the 2nd Company has 10 Veterans, of whom 5 of which are deathwing, or maybe all ten, or maybe none. Just kind of spread around so they can either act as needed when in the field with their company but can assemble en masse when deathwing protocols are activated.

 

You could go even further by incorporating other wings across companies, and by deliberately painting some of your units as from different companies than your main.

[G8Keeper]

 

How about having each Company have it's Veterans as normal, with the 1st Company being fully veterans, but continue the theme you're doing with ravenwing and have the deathwing members be spread out across the chapter as well. Effectively, all deathwing will be veterans but all veterans won't be deathwing.

 

So your 1st Company will be 100 Veterans, of which say 40± are deathwing. They'll wear whatever your colors for that are as well as TDA, and the other 60± Marines function as normal vanguard and sternguard. Then maybe the 2nd Company has 10 Veterans, of whom 5 of which are deathwing, or maybe all ten, or maybe none. Just kind of spread around so they can either act as needed when in the field with their company but can assemble en masse when deathwing protocols are activated.

 

You could go even further by incorporating other wings across companies, and by deliberately painting some of your units as from different companies than your main.

 

 

The only issue here is you're using the Dark Angels codex I presume? So no Vanguard or Sternguard.  I do like the idea of the Deathwing being in all companies, keeping an eye on them for rumours of the fallen, maybe even an Interrogator Chaplain with each company and they're his retinue?