Considering: Adequate Screening Numbers

[Trickstick]

What amount of boys-to-toys do you take to effectively screen with? I've been working on a brigade that has ended up at 60 guardsmen + characters screening 4 russes and a hydra. Additional things include aircraft, sentinels, scions etc. I'm having concerns that my infantry numbers are pitifully low for an effective screen, and may have to bump them up to 90+ to be effective, or just go all out and make an armoured battle group instead. 

So I thought I would gather opinions on how many men people take to screen their tanks, if you have any rules of thumb when building lists.

[Tokugawa]

At how many points, 1750? 2000?

 

When all your screen guardsmen drained,

 

Probability 1: you didn't bring enough guardsmen.

 

Probability 2: you didn't bring enough tanks to finish work before guardsmen died.

[Trickstick]

At how many points, 1750? 2000?

 

For arguments sake, let's use 2k as the standard.

[librisrouge]

If your army is basically divided into two factors, screen and firepower, then I recommend a 2/3 split between those two factors in points, respectively. The cool factor for IG is that our screen, at least infantry squads, don't just exist to die. They contribute a fair bit of shooting themselves, thanks to things like orders and hidden heavy weapons.

[HallofStovokor]

Don't worry about it too much. This weekend, once chapter approved comes out, you'll be able to fit probably 2 or more additional squads of Guardsmen and possibly a veteran squad kitted out.

[Trickstick]

Don't worry about it too much. This weekend, once chapter approved comes out, you'll be able to fit probably 2 or more additional squads of Guardsmen and possibly a veteran squad kitted out.

 

I was working off the new points costs. Did save a fair few points, as demolishers and sentinels are considerably cheaper. I'm just concerned about the ability to screen an armoured push with only 60 bodies, as I can see them melting quite quickly. May have to see what I can cut to put in a third platoon of 30.

[HallofStovokor]

The hydra is probably not needed. Your tank commander can pop any flier. If you're playing Cadians, you can use overlapping fields of fire to allow the rest of your shooting to be at full ballistic skill for the flier.

[MARK0SIAN]

At 2k I generally find about 80 Guardsmen do the job pretty well, it means you can concentrate a couple of squads where you really need it or just use 1 or 2 for deep strike denial in your deployment zone.

[WarriorFish]

At 2000pts I'd say at least 60 Guardsmen, though you could get away with fewer if other units perform a similar role (e.g. Sentinels as pickets to push back DS).

[Trickstick]

At 2000pts I'd say at least 60 Guardsmen, though you could get away with fewer if other units perform a similar role (e.g. Sentinels as pickets to push back DS).

 

True, I was forgetting about the screening potential of the sentinels. I guess you could do similar a similar thing with a vulture too, as it is difficult to charge.

[Tirak]

At 2k points 60 guardsmen is insufficient in my opinion unless you're running a flyer heavy list and you'll use those to block. 80-100 (leaning towards the 100) is a much more comfortable screen as it gives you lots of bodies to clog up an enemy assault, and as a Catachan player, lets you beat to death a pretty decent number of units. Armigers I have found are particularly vulnerable to Catachans climbing all over them.

[duz_]

TBH I've had reasonable success only taking 3-4 squads of guardsmen in a dual battalion. 

The reaming troops being Scions

i play fairly aggressively though

[our_baz]

My rule of thumb is 4-6 INF squads per 1000pts. In my experience less than this just isn't enough to screen and grab objectives.

[HallofStovokor]

My rule of thumb is 4-6 INF squads per 1000pts. In my experience less than this just isn't enough to screen and grab objectives.

I don't think that you want 12 squads at 2000 points. You reach a point where you run out of orders. Right now I run 6 infantry squads a vet squad and a mortar squad. As it is, orders get to everyone, but that's using Creed with STT. If I were to use 12 squads plus my mortars and drop the vets, even with Creed, I can only hope to get 10 of the squads orders per turn. I would have to sacrifice some elites like the tech priest and astropath to fit enough platoon commanders to get orders out. I guess I could drop the tech priest and put in a 3rd company commander w/ laspistol. That would get orders coverage, but I'm not sure if 3 company commanders plus Creed violates the rule of 3.

[Tirak]

 

My rule of thumb is 4-6 INF squads per 1000pts. In my experience less than this just isn't enough to screen and grab objectives.

I don't think that you want 12 squads at 2000 points. You reach a point where you run out of orders. Right now I run 6 infantry squads a vet squad and a mortar squad. As it is, orders get to everyone, but that's using Creed with STT. If I were to use 12 squads plus my mortars and drop the vets, even with Creed, I can only hope to get 10 of the squads orders per turn. I would have to sacrifice some elites like the tech priest and astropath to fit enough platoon commanders to get orders out. I guess I could drop the tech priest and put in a 3rd company commander w/ laspistol. That would get orders coverage, but I'm not sure if 3 company commanders plus Creed violates the rule of 3.

 

 

No it does not violate the Rule of 3. The Rule of 3 is explicit in that each Datasheet may not appear more than 3 times in a 2k point game. Creed has his own datasheet.

[HallofStovokor]

 

No it does not violate the Rule of 3. The Rule of 3 is explicit in that each Datasheet may not appear more than 3 times in a 2k point game. Creed has his own datasheet.

Thanks. I wasn't sure about that so I've never brought 3.

[Trickstick]

On the subject of officers, I think that people overdo it sometimes. You don't need orders for every squad, because after the first turn you are unlikely to have all of them in fighting form. I usually try to have about 2/3rds order coverage. You can get an extra order for 1cp if needed, which gives you some wiggle room. Think of how many points you waste if you have officers not giving there orders, it could be an extra squad instead.

[BIG ROB OF DEATH]

" or just go all out and make an armoured battle group instead. "

 

I am leaning towards something like this:

 

Shadowsword w/4 sponsons, 3 Russes probably most w/sponsons, some big artillery (manticore and/or basilisk), a taurox prime with gatling cannon and hot-shot volley guns, maybe a wyvern, some tech priests, psykers, and 3 infantry squads. Add toys as points permit. Its kinda hit-or-miss, but depending on traits and what kind of detachments you form out of something like this its can be very good and quite fun!

[Trickstick]

" or just go all out and make an armoured battle group instead. "

 

I am leaning towards something like this:

 

Shadowsword w/4 sponsons, 3 Russes probably most w/sponsons, some big artillery (manticore and/or basilisk), a taurox prime with gatling cannon and hot-shot volley guns, maybe a wyvern, some tech priests, psykers, and 3 infantry squads. Add toys as points permit. Its kinda hit-or-miss, but depending on traits and what kind of detachments you form out of something like this its can be very good and quite fun!

 

That sounds like a force where your screening units would be light vehicles, so Sentinels and Hellhounds. I guess Cyclops can be a screen too. It does seem a bit risky but I did used to play armoured battle group a lot, so I know how that goes.

[HallofStovokor]

" or just go all out and make an armoured battle group instead. "

 

I am leaning towards something like this:

 

Shadowsword w/4 sponsons, 3 Russes probably most w/sponsons, some big artillery (manticore and/or basilisk), a taurox prime with gatling cannon and hot-shot volley guns, maybe a wyvern, some tech priests, psykers, and 3 infantry squads. Add toys as points permit. Its kinda hit-or-miss, but depending on traits and what kind of detachments you form out of something like this its can be very good and quite fun!

That's definitely a "go big or go home" way to play. It's so ballsy that I have no choice but to love it.

[BIG ROB OF DEATH]

Yeah, I'm not a patient nor tactically astute player anymore, so I favor risky armies. Lots of fun no matter the outcome, but sometimes quite surprising and successful!

[Trickstick]

Shadowsword is the wrong choice for that army. You want a more aggressive choice, no matter the consequences! Hellhammer or Stormsword, with full flamers. Make it Tallarn, advance, flamer, crush them!, fall back next turn, flame, crush them!, etc. Make the enemy into paste and then cook the results. I know the shadowsword is the one with the big gun, but it can't compare to the fun of the yo-yo superheavy.

[HallofStovokor]

I must agree with trickstick. As awesome as the shadowsword is, I think an army with minimal ground troops is better served by a different super-heavy tank. The banehammer is the super-heavy for this force. It's damage per wound is on the low side, but it fires 3d6 shots. The important part isn't its damage or strength, which is okay, it the fact that so long as it hits it halves enemy movement. Let's say you pop an imperial Knight or even Guilliman, and he stops everything with the invulnerable save. The movement is still halved, as it only needs to hit to ruin the movement.

[GuardDaddy]

.... I run infantry list... its all screen!

[Wassa]

If your men are dying and your tanks are alive then that’s not always a bad thing!

 

It also depends on the armies your facing. If they have fliers than can jump over your men and charge your tanks then you’ll need more. If they’re ground base with deep strike then you only need to cover the large gaps.