Primaris-only Deathwatch post-CA?

[Sonoftherubric21]

I have a quick question for the community given the info we have from CA.

 

I have been looking at getting a mainly (but not exclusively) Primaris marine army and after reading up on Deathwatch it seems like they might be one of the best armies for this type of build I have in mind.  Given the Special Issue Ammo and its incredible level of flexibility combined with recent post cost reductions it seems that Deathwatch is a very solid choice for a mainly Primaris army... 

 

So my question; can the Deathwatch run a good (casual, semi-competitive, perhaps not a total pushover in competitive) army by using Primaris as the crux of the list? I love the Primaris line, and the deathwatch rules seem incredibly solid as a whole considering the bolt rifle is already a decent base gun. Can this idea work in anyone's experience with the army on the table?  Can it at least break even?  

[LucidNinja]

Short and sweet, yep! I ran a very solid mostly primaris celestial lions army as part of a slow grow earlier this year. Came second on wins so they can be pretty good.

 

Deathwatch take them to another level, the exact same army would be like 16 points more post CA for deathwatch to take, for 16 points extra I could deep strike any infantry (3 hell blaster squads) and have the intercessors be way more flexible.

 

The only down side of deathwatch primaris is there lack of characters, I ran an ancient, lieutenant and techmarine. I suppose could replace with a apothecary or 2 and a librarian.

[Prot]

Until CA, I'd say this is where all the players who wanted to play Primaris end up... either competitively or otherwise (Especially after Raven Guard nerf). Pre-primaris this was a pretty low traffic area of the forum. Post Primaris we got a lot more players coming in and asking Primaris questions.

 

Post CA? Now I'd say that shift is moving a hard left turn into Vets of all nature, and Primaris is left in the dust.

 

So to add one more piece to the puzzle: Vigilus. Some people think that's where your Primaris can shine because of the new Indomitus Crusader / Primaris Veteran Detachments and Strategems will shine.

[Vel'Cona]

So to add one more piece to the puzzle: Vigilus. Some people think that's where your Primaris can shine because of the new Indomitus Crusader / Primaris Veteran Detachments and Strategems will shine.

 

Too bad DW can't use 'em, huh? :P  It definitely works better for me since I never wanted my Primaris to become DW anyway.

[Lemondish]

Yes, but they're towards the bottom end of semi-competitive. You'll have far more success with everything non-Primaris.

 

Primaris definitely have far more options and Stratagem support outside of DW, though. Crimson Fists in particular have a fantastic suite of bonuses from Vigilus. Indomitus Crusaders are also fantastic. But in DW, nothing beats the sheer SIA power of Storm Bolters, the durability of mixed Veteran teams, the melee punch from characters, and access to way cheaper and more points efficient transports.

 

Primaris DW are more powerful in CA than they were before, but they are weaker compared to the internal mini Marine alternatives at every step of the way.

 

But if you're not ultra competitive, Primaris only DW is a compelling, unique choice that I think you'll enjoy.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

SIA is great for clearing lots of chaff... it can clear most anything that does not count as armor. It is really great but it does not win games hand down. I typically deep strike my Fortis Kill Team which really helps to keep them safe. Some people say that they die just like old Marines but not if you are smart. Sure I will keep running vets but my FKT rocks.

 

I made a mistake earlier in regards to my vet squads - I try to actually keep them under 175-180 points plus there will always be a DWFC. 3++ is great but I have shot entire Custodes armies off the table so keep an open mind. I don't like the bikers coz it makes it harder to hide a squad first turn.

 

Sure wish f'n BattleScribe would update their 40k dbase.

[Mr4Minutes]

So, I’m still new to DeathWatch, but some of our fellow brothers who are against the Primaris now were big supporters of them 2 weeks ago, and they’re cheaper now. So yes, they are still good in DeathWatch.

 

Vets have improved (finally lower points costs with no built in tax!) which is awesome, as I prefer them thematically. But I don’t think this invalidates the primaris. If you’re not min/maxing for every point or in a cut throat meta, they should work just fine.

 

In regards to the new not formations formations. Firstly, I actually have my doubts on how effective they true will be. Secondly, some posters have said that GW intended all Space Marine armies to be able to use the generic ones(apparently this was at the open day reveal) and some of the podcasting play testers thought you could but weren’t sure. This is my big speculation, but we may get an FAQ to add this if it was truly intended.

 

And if the indominus crusade one turns out to be amazing, run that using DeathWatch painted primaris models. It would look awesome.

(I actually wanted to run the reverse early this year, a grey shield primaris army using DeathWatch rules, because I thought it would look awesome, and DeathWatch push the mixed chapters theme.)

[LucidNinja]

Completely agree with Mr4Minutes, just because veterans are getting a great points drop in CA doesn't make primaris worse performing. So long as your not playing WAAC primaris will do good. They are tough, have good weapons, and with deathwatch are boosted further. Maybe not the best of the best but far from useless

[Lemondish]

So, I’m still new to DeathWatch, but some of our fellow brothers who are against the Primaris now were big supporters of them 2 weeks ago, and they’re cheaper now. So yes, they are still good in DeathWatch.

Don't mistake this as being against Primaris but instead 110% for Veterans. They are better at everything Primaris can do, and can do things Primaris can't.

 

Furthermore, slecting a Primaris unit over a Veteran alternative is unequivocally the worse choice 10 times out of 10.

 

That isn't to say Primaris aren't good - they can be. They're just not as good as Veterans now.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I know you must be upset about feeling like you have to shelf your first love for this faction but please understand we don't all feel the same as you and for a vast plethora of good reasons too.

[Lemondish]

Completely agree with Mr4Minutes, just because veterans are getting a great points drop in CA doesn't make primaris worse performing. So long as your not playing WAAC primaris will do good. They are tough, have good weapons, and with deathwatch are boosted further. Maybe not the best of the best but far from useless

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. They are hands down worse for their points than anything a Veteran can do. Yes, they're a bit better than they were pre-CA, but that was a time where their comparison to Veterans was much closer. Now the gap is wider and you are actively choosing the least competitive option by going with Primaris.

 

You'll still have fun, you'll still win games, but the internal balance of this codex just shifted largely in favour of the Veteran.

 

I know you must be upset about feeling like you have to shelf your first love for this faction but please understand we don't all feel the same as you and for a vast plethora of good reasons too.

Oh, wow. I'm not sure I've ever had someone try and attack my feelings on this as a personal vendetta. Bold move. For the record, I have nothing against Primaris. Pre CA Primaris were a viable choice for DW, and they continue to be so. They received a modest boost. Veterans shot into the atmosphere.

 

I'm not coming from somewhere impassioned. I'm coming from the cold hard analysis I've performed for tournaments since the codex launched. Primaris got better. You'll see a marked improvement in your performance.

 

But players should not at all be blindsided by the fact that Veterans will do it so much better.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The way you write often comes across as very passionate or you just will talk down to people who disagree with you .

 

Anyways here a blog article I wrote this evening regarding optimizing Veteran squads YMMV:

 

https://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2018/12/deathwatch-veterans-and-new-undercosted.html

[Vel'Cona]

Instead of arguing who has the better point, remember that we're all here to learn from and share our tabletop experiences.  You both have excellent points to make comparing DW Troops choices and I feel it's better to leave said information on the table and let the rest of us decide which is superior based on our own subjective thoughts/feelings/humours/etc.  In either case, I appreciate the fervor with which we can argue our love for this faction and its components, but let's aim that zeal where it belongs (ie. at the filthy xenos)! :)

[Prot]

 

I know you must be upset about feeling like you have to shelf your first love for this faction but please understand we don't all feel the same as you and for a vast plethora of good reasons too.

Oh, wow. I'm not sure I've ever had someone try and attack my feelings on this as a personal vendetta. Bold move. For the record, I have nothing against Primaris. Pre CA Primaris were a viable choice for DW, and they continue to be so. They received a modest boost. Veterans shot into the atmosphere.

 

I'm not coming from somewhere impassioned. I'm coming from the cold hard analysis I've performed for tournaments since the codex launched. Primaris got better. You'll see a marked improvement in your performance.

 

But players should not at all be blindsided by the fact that Veterans will do it so much better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've seen a lot of 'attacks' on the BnC over the years, and this ain't one of them.

 

It's okay to have a strong, very focal feeling for or against these units, but there's a few sides to it that are going to have their say too. Your views on the matter are on display throughout the Deathwatch forum.

 

Black Orange is not attacking you, but instead sympathizing with your statement while stating he doesn't agree with you.

 

I don't want us to over react here. Let's be honest about this whole thing; we know darn well that Primaris are where the money is. In the boardroom there won't be discussions about creating a need for new Vanguard/Veteran models. They will want to move tons of plastic new marines.

 

I have no doubt this is temporary. And frankly I'm in the same boat where this was the army that I found Primaris functioned best, and simply put; it's not that way anymore. But in 3-6 months? In GW time 3-6 months might change nothing or it can all change dramatically.

 

Plus the Primaris 'situation' we see ourselves in can be rectified with a simple campaign detachment in the next book (for all we know) and we may be having a very different conversation where I have to see very "tense" threads about people having to discard all the work they put into their Sternguard, or whatever happens to be victimized at that time.

 

The writing is on the wall. Primaris are here, and we could even be a box set or two of releases away from realizing that within the Deathwatch as well.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There are a lot of rumors concerning new Primaris units for 2019... could be a great year in general for Imperial Space Marines. :)

[Syward]

There are a lot of rumors concerning new Primaris units for 2019... could be a great year in general for Imperial Space Marines.

I'd love it if there was some more wargear options and supporting kits for primaris marines for HQ & Sgts. (which seems may be coming w/the IF upgrade sprue?) I'd also love some other/cheaper transport options.  Oh, and on the top of my wishlist - a primaris Watch Master with standard and Gravis armor options. I'd also love to see DW get a Watch Captain w/Gravis Armor.

 

/crossesfingers

[Black Knight]

Deathwatch is not the best place to be looking for a win all competitive army but you do say you are looking for "casual, semi-competitive, perhaps not a total pushover". That is Deathwatch in a nutshell, you're not going to be winning the competitions but you wont be last either. Tbh even Grey Knights are not last if the player actually knows their army.

 

When it comes to our codex their are very specific units that are the best no matter how you try to squint but in the end their is no OMG YOU IDUT choices(Maybe Reivers ). Every unit decision has a reason to be there including Primaris.

 

Are Primaris THE goto of the Deathwatch Codex? Nope but they aren't far from it and a Primaris Deathwatch army in the hands of yourself, someone that is going to learn all the tricks for that army(right!?) is going to have a great time

 

I run a mix of both sides of Deathwatch because I like the way the kill teams work to bring all the models into coherent teams. At the end of the day Primaris is the future but we haven't got to jump on the wagon fully yet, I intend to hook myself to the tow bar and be dragged along. Primaris I believe is GW's way of combating the exponential growth of options that Space Marines now have, it is becoming unbalancable and unwieldly. They do need a reset and this is their way of doing it. Having 3-4 options per model of a kill team is just a cluster of a situation and they are now making it so that the team itself has only 3-4 options.

 

With regards to heavy weapons I think Primaris is a way, especially with plasma, to reduce the outgoing model damage and to spread it across a unit so that overall damage is reduced. The whole turn one table is becoming a reality now, because a group of 4 las-cannons can single handily wipe a tank off the board first turn, therefore deciding the game. If you reduce the damage of single units down, then this becomes a game of actual tactical decisions and not just winning first turn with an Alpha army.

 

Well I hope that's what GW are thinking, if it is then the game will have a longer life span.

[LucidNinja]

Very well said Black Knight. Lemondish, I was pretty much going for what he said

[Trevak Dal]

So which would be the better place for pure Primaris, Deathwatch or vanilla (not counting vigilus)?

 

The special issue ammo seems useful but being able to get say 8 intecessors and 2 hellblasters would replicate my old chaos army loadout.

 

Although my experience shows concentration of specials in a squad like special weapons squads tends to benefit marines better even though a 'tactical squad-like' build would let them bring specials in that way.

[Prot]

So which would be the better place for pure Primaris, Deathwatch or vanilla (not counting vigilus)?

 

The special issue ammo seems useful but being able to get say 8 intecessors and 2 hellblasters would replicate my old chaos army loadout.

 

Although my experience shows concentration of specials in a squad like special weapons squads tends to benefit marines better even though a 'tactical squad-like' build would let them bring specials in that way.

 

If you removed Vigilus from the equation, then there is no doubt to me that Deathwatch are going to do far more for your Primaris.

 

Primaris actually got very, very little from CA which is something I'm still trying to understand. (To be fair, even the PA troops of yester-marine got very little).

 

So to be 100% honest, very, very little changes your decision from CA (except that non troop marines just got a whole bunch better - but we're here to talk about Primaris). Now what does that mean? Vanilla Marines still (maybe more than ever) will use Scouts for troops. DW does not have that option so again if we are motivated to play mostly Primaris you have to think SIA, and the Deathwatch Strats are the big decision makers.

 

I think (and I realize this is slightly off topic but to put things in perspective:) the release of CA set the overall movement of Primaris back in time to the dawn of 8th.

 

The short version: personally I don't understand how vanilla marines could offer more, or even as much as Deathwatch can with Deepstriking, squad mixing, and SIA all being direct benefits to Primaris that nothing else offers. (Again we're removing Vigilus from the equation however I don't rate the Indomitus Crusaders very well at this point.)

[Syward]

So which would be the better place for pure Primaris, Deathwatch or vanilla (not counting vigilus)?

 

The special issue ammo seems useful but being able to get say 8 intecessors and 2 hellblasters would replicate my old chaos army loadout.

 

Although my experience shows concentration of specials in a squad like special weapons squads tends to benefit marines better even though a 'tactical squad-like' build would let them bring specials in that way.

 

I don't have a lot of experience actually playing the game, only started back in May/June of this year (been part of the hobby off and on since 1996 though).

 

When I started playing I bought the Dark Imperium box, so obviously I started up a Primaris SM army. I played some games with Primaris as different chapters, (Ultramarines, RavenGuard & IF) and went to the forms looking for advice on how to better play my Primaris Marines. Someone suggested that I take a look at Deathwatch because their rules are better for Primaris, so I went out and picked up the codex and started reading through the Deathwatch forms on unit comps, and tactics and really liked what I could do w/the Primaris units (SIA, mixed units, etc.).

 

Now, I’ve only got one game under my belt so far as DW, and while I did lose, I can certainly see the potential for DW Primaris. The loss really came down to simple (stupid?) mistakes that I made that ultimately cost me the game. Personally, I prefer DW for Primaris, but I’ll still play a Primaris force in C:SM because I like the primaris models and their rules for both C:SM and DW.  I'm not and never will be a competitive/tournament player so, that does have some bearing on my opinion, but YMMV.

[Lemondish]

 

 

So which would be the better place for pure Primaris, Deathwatch or vanilla (not counting vigilus)?

 

The special issue ammo seems useful but being able to get say 8 intecessors and 2 hellblasters would replicate my old chaos army loadout.

 

Although my experience shows concentration of specials in a squad like special weapons squads tends to benefit marines better even though a 'tactical squad-like' build would let them bring specials in that way.

If you removed Vigilus from the equation, then there is no doubt to me that Deathwatch are going to do far more for your Primaris.

 

Primaris actually got very, very little from CA which is something I'm still trying to understand. (To be fair, even the PA troops of yester-marine got very little).

 

So to be 100% honest, very, very little changes your decision from CA (except that non troop marines just got a whole bunch better - but we're here to talk about Primaris). Now what does that mean? Vanilla Marines still (maybe more than ever) will use Scouts for troops. DW does not have that option so again if we are motivated to play mostly Primaris you have to think SIA, and the Deathwatch Strats are the big decision makers.

 

I think (and I realize this is slightly off topic but to put things in perspective:) the release of CA set the overall movement of Primaris back in time to the dawn of 8th.

 

The short version: personally I don't understand how vanilla marines could offer more, or even as much as Deathwatch can with Deepstriking, squad mixing, and SIA all being direct benefits to Primaris that nothing else offers. (Again we're removing Vigilus from the equation however I don't rate the Indomitus Crusaders very well at this point.)

I disagree. Codex Primaris got a boatload from their two focused Detachments. 7 new Stratagems specific to them on top of the option to spend 1CP for a second great warlord trait and a good selection of relics.

 

Deathwatch Primaris definitely got a boost from slightly cheaper Intercessors and Hellblasters (in numbers, this will be a big drop overall) and a huge drop in the price of the supporting elements. The addition of the power fist on the Sarge adds an extra 3 power fist strikes for an Aggressor heavy kill team, which sounds ace.

 

But the gap between codex Primaris and Deathwatch is rightfully closer now, and the best part is that it's achieved in two different ways, which I love.

[vigitant]

I have a quick question for the community given the info we have from CA.

So my question; can the Deathwatch run a good (casual, semi-competitive, perhaps not a total pushover in competitive) army by using Primaris as the crux of the list? I love the Primaris line, and the deathwatch rules seem incredibly solid as a whole considering the bolt rifle is already a decent base gun. Can this idea work in anyone's experience with the army on the table?  Can it at least break even?  

 

Currently it looks like the two big extremes for competitive play are going to be Orks and knights.  A competitive list has to be able to fight meta orks and knights lists to be top, or at least have a play against one and trashcan the other.

Being able to deal with eldar lists becomes the next box to check.

 

Primaris troops still suffer from 2 problems: not enough shots for their points, and no invul.

For competitive play, the #1 thing SM factions have going for them is our strong characters, and again, primaris are missing crucial elements:  no jump packs, less invuls, :cussty wargear options

 

 

 

That being said:

 

I feel like the current strongest primaris for competitive play are helblaster kt's.  These are spammable, and can threat anything in the game at pretty good range.  Back them up with characters(i suggest kitbashing primaris models to use regular captain and librarian datasheets for jump packs) to cover your weak spots, give reroll auras, psychic powers, and provide some fast moving punch.

 

Offhand, a double DW battalion with 3-4 helblaster kt's, watchmaster, 2 JP libbys, and a TH/SB smash captain, fill out the battalions with msu intercessors.  If points allow, get a minimum IG or Death korp battalion to hold back line objectives and provide CP.

helblaster kt's with full rerolls and 16-18 CP to fuel +1 strats are scary.

 

As another alternative, with no soup(offhand this feels stronger, but would need testing and tweaking)(also, better with some soup):

run 60 intercessor in 5m units across 2-3 battallions.

use the rest of your points for 3 JP libbys, smash captains, and watch master/s(or, with soup: 2 jp rune priests and njall, the 2 DW jp libby, watchmaster, jp smash cpt)

 

120 wounds, 60-120 shots depending on range.  msu so no morale.  and thats 120 wounds between the meat of the list and incoming fire.  The soup version has 14 cp with likely 2-4cp spent for relics.

Soup has effectively 6 smites a turn, with potent attacks across the hq's.  likely spitting out 6-7 d3 mortal wounds a turn.

[Prot]

 

 

So which would be the better place for pure Primaris, Deathwatch or vanilla (not counting vigilus)?

 

The special issue ammo seems useful but being able to get say 8 intecessors and 2 hellblasters would replicate my old chaos army loadout.

 

Although my experience shows concentration of specials in a squad like special weapons squads tends to benefit marines better even though a 'tactical squad-like' build would let them bring specials in that way.

If you removed Vigilus from the equation, then there is no doubt to me that Deathwatch are going to do far more for your Primaris.

 

Primaris actually got very, very little from CA which is something I'm still trying to understand. (To be fair, even the PA troops of yester-marine got very little).

 

So to be 100% honest, very, very little changes your decision from CA (except that non troop marines just got a whole bunch better - but we're here to talk about Primaris). Now what does that mean? Vanilla Marines still (maybe more than ever) will use Scouts for troops. DW does not have that option so again if we are motivated to play mostly Primaris you have to think SIA, and the Deathwatch Strats are the big decision makers.

 

I think (and I realize this is slightly off topic but to put things in perspective:) the release of CA set the overall movement of Primaris back in time to the dawn of 8th.

 

The short version: personally I don't understand how vanilla marines could offer more, or even as much as Deathwatch can with Deepstriking, squad mixing, and SIA all being direct benefits to Primaris that nothing else offers. (Again we're removing Vigilus from the equation however I don't rate the Indomitus Crusaders very well at this point.)

I disagree. Codex Primaris got a boatload from their two focused Detachments. 7 new Stratagems specific to them on top of the option to spend 1CP for a second great warlord trait and a good selection of relics.

 

Deathwatch Primaris definitely got a boost from slightly cheaper Intercessors and Hellblasters (in numbers, this will be a big drop overall) and a huge drop in the price of the supporting elements. The addition of the power fist on the Sarge adds an extra 3 power fist strikes for an Aggressor heavy kill team, which sounds ace.

 

But the gap between codex Primaris and Deathwatch is rightfully closer now, and the best part is that it's achieved in two different ways, which I love.

 

 

You do realize I was responding to someone that said "not counting Vigilus"?

 

if by Codex Primaris you mean Indomitus Crusaders, then yes, we disagree. Otherwise I'm unaware of "2 focused Codex Primaris" detachments. but we have to leave it at that as this isn't the place for it.

 

 

That being said:

 

I feel like the current strongest primaris for competitive play are helblaster kt's.  These are spammable, and can threat anything in the game at pretty good range.  Back them up with characters(i suggest kitbashing primaris models to use regular captain and librarian datasheets for jump packs) to cover your weak spots, give reroll auras, psychic powers, and provide some fast moving punch.

 

 

120 wounds, 60-120 shots depending on range.  msu so no morale.  and thats 120 wounds between the meat of the list and incoming fire.  The soup version has 14 cp with likely 2-4cp spent for relics.

Soup has effectively 6 smites a turn, with potent attacks across the hq's.  likely spitting out 6-7 d3 mortal wounds a turn.

 

 

 

I definitely like the Hellblaster KT's as well and I place deep striking in high regard. They are somewhat spammable, and besides... the whole thing looks awesome on the table and that's part of our hobby too right? (or at least I hope it still is!)

[Lemondish]

snip

I sincerely apologize - I had CA and the campaign book mixed in my head! You're absolutely right.