The biggest problem with space marines

[antique_nova]

So, I had a discussion at the most recent GT in Nottingham about how bad space marines are in this edition and the conclusion that we both agreed on was that the rules suck...

 

As in the rules don't really reflect marines well enough compared to everyone else. They are meant to be adaptable to the situation and a jack of all trades, but they aren't even good at that compared to the rest.

 

However, the biggest fault is that the way marines fight in lore differ completely to the way they fight on the table. First of all, the marines NEVER fight on even terms and when they do, those battles are APOCALYPTIC! 

 

Also, they normally pick what's best for the situation based on number of foes, type of foes and type of terrain. So much of what marines, space marines, isn't reflected on the tabletop game. The situations that they arrive in are most of the time in the lore never match the types of fights we use them in on the tabletop.

 

At least with the Chaos Space Marines, it's reflected far better with the amount of customisation and synergy they have with their allies compared to the Imperium.

 

Anyone else feel this?

 

And how would I rectify this? In all honesty, I have no idea, simply because I haven't really given the marines any real consideration for this entire year.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yes, you'd probably love something more narratively driven. When you fight guard or chaos, find an opponent who would agree to run an infantry heavy list, or restrict spamming armored vehicles (since a marine strike force would never engage an armored opponent like that). Use the points values or power levels you're comfortable with to try and shape a mission so that your opponent losing a lore-accurate amount of forces to the marines isn't an awful experience for them. Rolling reserves, respawning minor characters, etc. Let them use an unlimited number of the less powerful strategems.

[FlamingDeth]

Give marines a way to access additional command points. Add pregame strategems, similar to what orks have, that you can use to tailor some units/the whole army to the type of army you're up against. I think that could help marines get closer to the fluff of tailoring advantageous engagements and fighting on their own terms.

[Brother Crimson]

Kill team with command roster fits very well the description. You have a pool of marines that you draw from after you’ve seen the mission.

 

I know it’s a different game and it’s hard to scale up to 40k but I like the idea.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Alot of it has to do with how much the structure of the game has changed. The old FoC made marines feel more durable because we all had a fair amount of troops. Allies have also had an impact because GW doesn't charge the same for upgrades/units between different fractions which was always explained as being a way to keep the armies unique. The problem with that is when you just select an ally that provides you exactly what you need, you don't really need generalist units.

[Panzer]

As you said the game doesn't really work to represent the battles in novels. In novels Marines always fight on their terms and always engage the enemy forces in battles where they can simply overpower them. Unless they have to help the imperial guard and get overwhelmed by a horde of Orks or similar that is. The game is designed to have balanced battles. In real life you don't have balanced battles and neither you do in novels.

It also doesn't help that in novels we often have "movie marines" and on the table Marines feel more like better equipped Guardsmen currently.

[HighMarshalAmp]

I got to know Marines as the pieces in the game first. They seemed solid enough, especially compared to guardsmen.

That Terminators don't have S5T5 (I'm still heartbroken about that) and that other factions are just ridiculously more resilient than Marines isn't exactly good for that balance, but it is what it is.

 

I accept Marines as - compared to other factions - slightly overcosted but solid units.

 

Primaris did help to close that gap and the rift between Astartes and Guards more closely resembles the fluff now as well, but compared to Oldmarines, Primaris are ridiculously more resilient too! Rather surprising for people like me who knew the MEQ statline before they really knew the fluff...

 

And I agree with what has bee said about even battles... there's almost none in the fluff.

Either you have hundreds of Marines in a STEEL REHN and they just obliterate their foes.

Or you have five guys surviving against hordes of Tyrannids for days. Have fun playing those 800W Sv 2+ T12 guys, even one of them... and even if you find someone willing to fight you, the game would take days!

The point balances are much closer to a really balanced fight than the fluff ever was.

[FlamingDeth]

Kill team with command roster fits very well the description. You have a pool of marines that you draw from after you’ve seen the mission.

 

I know it’s a different game and it’s hard to scale up to 40k but I like the idea.

Now that's definitely an interesting concept! Overcost the marines deliberately but make a roster to list tailor said overcosted marines and only bring along stuff that hits your opponents weaknesses? I could get behind that.

[Panzer]

 

Kill team with command roster fits very well the description. You have a pool of marines that you draw from after you’ve seen the mission.

 

I know it’s a different game and it’s hard to scale up to 40k but I like the idea.

Now that's definitely an interesting concept! Overcost the marines deliberately but make a roster to list tailor said overcosted marines and only bring along stuff that hits your opponents weaknesses? I could get behind that.

 

 

Then you might like the Deathwatch Codex. ;)

[Ishagu]

People always point out narrative to tabletop inconsistencies but the same is true for all models in all factions. 5 Custodes should be stronger than they are, Necrons should be near impossible to combat, psykers like Magnus should be able to just will entire enemy armies to shoot themselves, etc etc

[Panzer]

The difference is that all those other armies, while not being 100% like described in fluff, still work more or less how they are supposed to while Marines simply don't. Hence why nobody mentions that issue with other armies. ^^

[Kinstryfe]

The internet problem with comparing fluff to table is that Marines are the prime protagonists in most stories, and as such they're often written in the best light simply because it's a boring story without. That story about how 20 Marines drop pod into a traitor armoured column to buy time for reinforcements to arrive, only for all of their pods to be shot down could be a great story from the traitor viewpoint, but we're a lot less likely to hear that because of the viewpoint that Marines are the main characters in the setting. That's why we get Calgar punching out an Avatar of Khaine but not so much of the Avatar tearing thru an entire Company solo.

 

That said, they definitely need to play differently without achieving movie Marine status, and they for sure need to have more flexibility. I'd start by giving almost every model a Bolter *and* Chainsword, and then give them some better deployment options. Drop pods that can enter turn 1, being able to redeploy a number of units before the game starts like the one Custodes relic allows, and other tricks like that could help them control where they engage the enemy as well, which is something they lack. A drop pod assault or speartip strike should be scary, and it's just not currently.

[Boldthreat]

I think it's actually the lore and black library that need to bring their stuff closer to the table top.

 

It's been a long time since I played a game of Epic... But I always thought it represented Space Marines more accurately to how I envisioned them. A mobile army that could hit hard and get away, but would be overwhelmed in a slug match. More commandos, less storm troopers. But I also think a company of SM conquering a star system is retarded.

 

Get in, kill something really important and leave... then let the Navy/Guard do the rest. Then 1000 man swat teams make since in a galaxy with the rediculous numbers thrown around.

[Brother Crimson]

 

Kill team with command roster fits very well the description. You have a pool of marines that you draw from after you’ve seen the mission.

 

I know it’s a different game and it’s hard to scale up to 40k but I like the idea.

Now that's definitely an interesting concept! Overcost the marines deliberately but make a roster to list tailor said overcosted marines and only bring along stuff that hits your opponents weaknesses? I could get behind that.

You should give a try to kill team. The game is not perfect but it gives very interesting 100/200 points games and specialist choice to take into consideration.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think it was Vraks, but correct me if I’m wrong, where the marines led a spearhead to take a breach and it started like any normal novel with the renegades cut down in droves until renegade armor moved in on them and it became a blood bath. That was the closest to perfect I’ve ever seen published.

[Dracos]

That is if the armor column had infantry support? Otherwise a squad of Space Marines should take out said armor column .... according to real life tactics, if real life had 8ft power armored super soldiers ;)

[autek mor]

k just my two pence from following the hobby since the early 90's.....

 

marines being awesome on the tabletop has fluctuated through out the years because of rules, points and rival codexes. with 8th and the addition of stratagems, loyalist marines have now got the opportunity to do awesome type stuff as in the fluff but that simply isn't possible because.....

 

1. stratagems: before vigilus, the general consensus is that marines stratagems sucked. this has been addressed somewhat with the vigilus book but then in order to get the most out of them you are going to need more CP in a army with a lot of overcosted units. you could ally guard as a quick fix but then you are no longer that awesome marine army that takes on all comers against the odds

 

2. expensive units: see the fire raptor for example? if a unit is too strong then maybe that should be the whole point seeing as these guys are supposed to be the imperiums best. marine armies will often be outnumbered so units that can carry a lot of weapons should be affordable to address that issue. remember the 85 point fully loaded anti infantry predator  in 4th-5th?

 

3. rules: this should be the easiest fix. for a quick example i'll use the thousands sons and death guard, i would like to bring up the new orks but i will keep it marines for now. fair enough all marine books have the chapter tactic flaw of their additional rules not applying to all units but at least the traitors not only get chapter tactics they get additional built in rules like disgustingly resilient and all is dust and on top of that they get death to the false emperor which works against 10 or maybe more different codexes.

 

4. being elite: thanks to stratagems, chapter tactics and special rules, other armies just got a lot more killy. somehow a catachan guardsman is just as strong as terminator armoured veteran, somehow rookie cultists became veterans of the long war and go super saiyan just because you happen top be wearing a two headed eagle logo, somehow orks improved at shooting and have even more adaptable troops. the only real marine answer to this is deathwatch but even then, the previous mentioned problems still cripple them.

 

suggested solutions.

 

1. chapter tactics apply to all units

 

2. give marines units more additional special rules and not just equipment

 

3. lower the price of units so marine players can do more varied brigade lists even at 2k points without having to water down unit choices just to fit.

 

4. improve the boltgun and chainsword for non primaris, for primaris give them access to better melee weapons.

 

i believe this would help tabletop marines become closer to book marines.

[Robbienw]

You shouldn't make the fluff for space marines match how they are on the tabletop, that would be silly.  Firstly due to the ever evolving nature of the game, the portrayal on the table top is too variable.  Secondly you'd be undermining the cornerstone fluff of marines being engineered transhuman super soldiers and reducing them to slightly better humans in nice armour.  The game is just a simulation, abstracted so you can play with roughly equal forces and numbers, so GW can sell you a large amount of miniatures no matter which faction you play.

[justicarius6]

The quite brutal fix I would like to see are marines get +1 to S/T/W and A, for marine boltguns (and similar) and chainswords to be AP-1, and there to be no movement penalties for marines firing heavy weapons. And yes, for the points to increase to reflect this. It'll never happen, it's just a wishlist I know but it would bring them up to how they're portrayed in the fluff.

 

As for now, the points drops are a quick fix that will bring marines up a little and make them more competitive. Will it make them top-tier? Far from it, the only marines in top-tier lists will continue to be just Super Smash Captains, but the changes do mean we can now compete on a more friendly basis without having to optimise ourselves to the max.

[antique_nova]

As you said the game doesn't really work to represent the battles in novels. In novels Marines always fight on their terms and always engage the enemy forces in battles where they can simply overpower them. Unless they have to help the imperial guard and get overwhelmed by a horde of Orks or similar that is. The game is designed to have balanced battles. In real life you don't have balanced battles and neither you do in novels.

It also doesn't help that in novels we often have "movie marines" and on the table Marines feel more like better equipped Guardsmen currently.

That's why in RTS games like the Total:War series, I always loved playing campaigns as opposed to PVP 1 on 1s. It just feels far more realistic and grandeur. I know I'm playing a simulated version of what if events, but I don't want it to feel like that. I want the most realistic version without putting myself in danger.

[antique_nova]

People always point out narrative to tabletop inconsistencies but the same is true for all models in all factions. 5 Custodes should be stronger than they are, Necrons should be near impossible to combat, psykers like Magnus should be able to just will entire enemy armies to shoot themselves, etc etc

Here's the point though. Marines have the biggest inconsistency of all and by a HUGE margin compared to everyone else right now. That's the problem, we always know their will be inconsistencies. That's the problem with simulations, but there needs to be kept in check and with marines, it's running wild right now.

You shouldn't make the fluff for space marines match how they are on the tabletop, that would be silly.  Firstly due to the ever evolving nature of the game, the portrayal on the table top is too variable.  Secondly you'd be undermining the cornerstone fluff of marines being engineered transhuman super soldiers and reducing them to slightly better humans in nice armour.  The game is just a simulation, abstracted so you can play with roughly equal forces and numbers, so GW can sell you a large amount of miniatures no matter which faction you play.

I never said that they had to match completely, I want them to be better represented so that it's closer to the lore and so that they're not so out of league compared to the rest of the current armies.

[antique_nova]

The quite brutal fix I would like to see are marines get +1 to S/T/W and A, for marine boltguns (and similar) and chainswords to be AP-1, and there to be no movement penalties for marines firing heavy weapons. And yes, for the points to increase to reflect this. It'll never happen, it's just a wishlist I know but it would bring them up to how they're portrayed in the fluff.

 

As for now, the points drops are a quick fix that will bring marines up a little and make them more competitive. Will it make them top-tier? Far from it, the only marines in top-tier lists will continue to be just Super Smash Captains, but the changes do mean we can now compete on a more friendly basis without having to optimise ourselves to the max.

Maybe not W2, but at least strength and toughness, because I find it hard to believe that a Tzaangor is as tough and strong as a space marine in armour. Apparently, the only thing separating them is the protection they wear.

 

Also, there is nothing in the rules that reflect the explosive shells of the bolters. At the very least they SHOULD ignore cover and be AP1.

[Firepower]

Moving aside from the can of worms that is narrative v. table, I would lay the majority of C:SM's troubles at the feet of first dex syndrome. The first in a new edition always hurts as rule writers get more comfortable and wilder with the new rules, i.e. stratagems.

[Kinstryfe]

Moving aside from the can of worms that is narrative v. table, I would lay the majority of C:SM's troubles at the feet of first dex syndrome. The first in a new edition always hurts as rule writers get more comfortable and wilder with the new rules, i.e. stratagems.

I think first Dex syndrome is half of the problem. The other half is that they're the poster army, which I honestly feel restricts what they'll do with them. Things that make sense to us (extra AP on Bolters, AP reduction with power armour, all the cool ideas we come up with) I feel are likely often seen as yet another rule that new players will need to remember. As a result, I feel like Marines will always be oversimplified from what they should be until they're no longer the "beginner army" for an edition. Sadly I'm not sure I see them putting out a starter without loyalist Marines in it anytime soon.

[Kallas]

The other half is that they're the poster army, which I honestly feel restricts what they'll do with them. [...] I feel like Marines will always be oversimplified from what they should be until they're no longer the "beginner army" for an edition.

Considering the steep learning curve that their mass of flaws brings, I don't think they're particularly good for a learning army any longer. Orks are pretty damn straightforward: they mostly run forward and smash stuff; Imperial Guard have orders but are otherwise pretty simple, as each unit tends to do one thing and they have a good variety of units.

 

They might have simple units as far as rules go, but they come with a fair amount of baggage (eg, the huge equipment variety that OldMarines have can be a complex web).

 

Primaris are an ok learning army from a purely 'teaching the rules of the game' perspective, but moving beyond that they're stymied when moving from beginner -> low end competitive by the inherent weaknesses of Marines in general.

 

There are quite a lot of simple fixes that would make Marines better and more lore appropriate without overly complicating things for brand new players.

 

Hell, it'd be better for all involved if there were easier routes into the other factions.