Marshal Rohr Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Moving aside from the can of worms that is narrative v. table, I would lay the majority of C:SM's troubles at the feet of first dex syndrome. The first in a new edition always hurts as rule writers get more comfortable and wilder with the new rules, i.e. stratagems.I think first Dex syndrome is half of the problem. The other half is that they're the poster army, which I honestly feel restricts what they'll do with them. Things that make sense to us (extra AP on Bolters, AP reduction with power armour, all the cool ideas we come up with) I feel are likely often seen as yet another rule that new players will need to remember. As a result, I feel like Marines will always be oversimplified from what they should be until they're no longer the "beginner army" for an edition. Sadly I'm not sure I see them putting out a starter without loyalist Marines in it anytime soon. My forays into strategy gaming have given me a perspective on this problem that could only be rectified by what I’d call ‘coaching’. When new players take up the game they have a sink or swim period that builds their perception of armies the way people feel the Empire is weak in total warhammer. If you only ever play ‘multiplayer’ pickup games or unmodified campaigns, what you’re saying is true, which is why it’s important to build communities at LGSs that are willing to try different game types and encourage force selection restrictions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Moving aside from the can of worms that is narrative v. table, I would lay the majority of C:SM's troubles at the feet of first dex syndrome. The first in a new edition always hurts as rule writers get more comfortable and wilder with the new rules, i.e. stratagems. I think it's elements of this, combined with what Kinstryfe has said, and also a healthy dose of not taking advantage of the uncapped stats. Weird equivalences in stat values were explainable before, when we were limited to a 1-10 scale. Now GW have removed this restriction of things capping at 10, but haven't taken advantage of it. We should have seen S3 Guardsmen, S4 Orks, and S5 Marines. The same goes for guns. We're no longer limited to S10 (with S:D being the only thing higher), but a meltagun is still S8? A bolter is still S4? It was such an opportunity to massively overhaul the game to make the stats fit much better, but they completely missed it due to nostalgia for the old, badly-fitting stats... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Moving aside from the can of worms that is narrative v. table, I would lay the majority of C:SM's troubles at the feet of first dex syndrome. The first in a new edition always hurts as rule writers get more comfortable and wilder with the new rules, i.e. stratagems. I think it's elements of this, combined with what Kinstryfe has said, and also a healthy dose of not taking advantage of the uncapped stats. Weird equivalences in stat values were explainable before, when we were limited to a 1-10 scale. Now GW have removed this restriction of things capping at 10, but haven't taken advantage of it. We should have seen S3 Guardsmen, S4 Orks, and S5 Marines. The same goes for guns. We're no longer limited to S10 (with S:D being the only thing higher), but a meltagun is still S8? A bolter is still S4? It was such an opportunity to massively overhaul the game to make the stats fit much better, but they completely missed it due to nostalgia for the old, badly-fitting stats... Yeah that's the one really disappointing thing with 8th edition that wasn't completely obvious at first. Bad terrain rules, broken allied detachments etc. are also bad but I don't think either make me feel as bad as the wasted opportunity of not re-working all the stats since both can still get changed via supplements or big FAQ easily. Welp ... maybe with 9th edition in like 5 years or so (probably not). :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 I mean, it's literally why they uncapped the stats. Why they didn't actually do anything with it makes no sense whatsoever to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 They likely didn't do it so old players are still familiar with the game instead of starting completely from scratch. Some changes have to be introduced slowly. But still. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 People always point out narrative to tabletop inconsistencies but the same is true for all models in all factions. 5 Custodes should be stronger than they are, Necrons should be near impossible to combat, psykers like Magnus should be able to just will entire enemy armies to shoot themselves, etc etc Tau battlesuit combat and battlespace manipulation was pretty spot on in 7th. I think that we need to abandon the concept of space marines being super soldiers, and see them as what they are: special forces. Our guys are the Navy SEALS or Special Air Service, or GSG9 etc of the tabletop (not the lore) we don't need two guys to run a heavy Bolter we got guys to run it like it's a SAW (...do guard heavy weapons teams get two wounds and lose efficiency for taking damage, going to -1 bs if a guy is killed? Probably not...). Special Forces aren't super heroes, but I think there's a space for us to use tools available to not fight fair. We shouldn't be slogging it out in shooting against guard or Tau or eldar or etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 I think that we need to abandon the concept of space marines being super soldiers, and see them as what they are: special forces. No. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Yeahhhh...table top wise, maybe special forces. But Marines are very deliberatley, unquestionably meant to be super soldiers in fluff. The Guard has special forces. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 I am all about the super soldiers . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 I think that we need to abandon the concept of space marines being super soldiers, and see them as what they are: special forces. No. Yeahhhh...table top wise, maybe special forces. But Marines are very deliberatley, unquestionably meant to be super soldiers in fluff. The Guard has special forces. Agreed. Scions are already Special Forces, Marines are in a league of their own in the Imperium. Basically nothing else can perform the same kind of orbital assaults, due almost entirely to the superhuman resilience of the Astartes enabling them to actually survive a Drop Pod's landing. And that's just one aspect. If we remove the superhuman element of Astartes then we might as well remove them entirely. And no thank you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x19 Parabellum Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 .998 caliber boltguns that will shear a normal human's arm completely off at the shoulder socket when fired? That reaks of supersoldier to me, not special forces. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boldthreat Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 I think that we need to abandon the concept of space marines being super soldiers, and see them as what they are: special forces. No. Yeahhhh...table top wise, maybe special forces. But Marines are very deliberatley, unquestionably meant to be super soldiers in fluff. The Guard has special forces. Agreed. Scions are already Special Forces, Marines are in a league of their own in the Imperium. Basically nothing else can perform the same kind of orbital assaults, due almost entirely to the superhuman resilience of the Astartes enabling them to actually survive a Drop Pod's landing. And that's just one aspect. If we remove the superhuman element of Astartes then we might as well remove them entirely. And no thank you. Space Marines are super soldiers for sure. I don’t mean to advocate the removal of that aspect. But what super soldier means in the context of the greater 40k universe is very important. I believe the table top depiction of them can still accurately portray an elite army of super soldiers. Space Marines are not the greatest Warriors in the galaxy. They are not even the greatest super soldiers the Imperium can produce. I remember a time when Space Marines were more of an elite special forces unit. Was this not the entire point of Guilliman’s codex? The Guard does the stand up fights. The Navy does the void warfare stuff. Marines do lightning assaults and head hunter missions where no one else can survive long enough to do them. My main point is the lore portrays a race of Knight gods that can conquer a world with 100 men or less. The lore more often than not ignores the logistical nightmare of its own creations. I believe it needs dialed down from where it is. I believe the table top is closer to believable... and I say that still holding the belief that they are super soldiers. I think it’s reasonable to state they are more Navy Seals/SAS than not. They are just trained from childhood, mind wiped, hypnoindoctrinated killers injected with Captain America juice and wrapped in tank armor. That’s super for sure... but compare this to Eldar and their fluff. Compare this to the Custodes... or the Tyranids or even the Elite of the Guard and Inquisition. They are shock troops... that’s it. All my opinion though. I’m probably wrong... probably... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Even in context of the greater 40k universe they are still super soldiers. They are capable of going toe to toe with basically any creature out there and win except maybe for the big Tyranid ones which are more like living tanks than soldiers if we're fair (and even then, Dante 1on1ed a Swarmlord just recently), and they are far superior than most living beings in the 40k universe. In fluff they usually only die against big stuff like tanks or when they get overwhelmed. Keep in mind that Marines in fluff are few, get send on missions with only small numbers because that's usually enough and every dead Marine is an exception and a heavy blow. They just don't feel that great on the board because many weapons are way too effective against their profile. If every army has dozens of Plasma and Assault Cannons and whatnot and basically no problem aiming those at said Marines it's no surpise they die in droves with just T4 W1 Sv3+. And that's just one part of the problem, their damage output is also entirely lacking. Just think about how devastating Bolter are supposed to be. How many Guardsmen a single basic Marine is supposed to be able to kill in melee without a problem. And still a Tactical Marine struggles to kill a single Guardsman via shooting (0.7 dead Guardsmen in Rapid fire range with Bolter) as well as via melee (not even half a Guardsman). Problems that are entirely crunch, not fluff. Of course they can't be 100% like in the fluff on the table because nobody likes playing against unkillable units that laugh about your army but if they'd get buffed to near Custodes niveau and Custodes even further that would help a LOT to make them feel more like they are supposed to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Space Marines are super soldiers for sure. I don’t mean to advocate the removal of that aspect. But what super soldier means in the context of the greater 40k universe is very important. I believe the table top depiction of them can still accurately portray an elite army of super soldiers. Space Marines are not the greatest Warriors in the galaxy. They are not even the greatest super soldiers the Imperium can produce. I remember a time when Space Marines were more of an elite special forces unit. Was this not the entire point of Guilliman’s codex? The Guard does the stand up fights. The Navy does the void warfare stuff. Marines do lightning assaults and head hunter missions where no one else can survive long enough to do them. My main point is the lore portrays a race of Knight gods that can conquer a world with 100 men or less. The lore more often than not ignores the logistical nightmare of its own creations. I believe it needs dialed down from where it is. I believe the table top is closer to believable... and I say that still holding the belief that they are super soldiers. I think it’s reasonable to state they are more Navy Seals/SAS than not. They are just trained from childhood, mind wiped, hypnoindoctrinated killers injected with Captain America juice and wrapped in tank armor. That’s super for sure... but compare this to Eldar and their fluff. Compare this to the Custodes... or the Tyranids or even the Elite of the Guard and Inquisition. They are shock troops... that’s it. All my opinion though. I’m probably wrong... probably... I think you're maybe about 40% right Yes, Marines absolutely are special forces: they perform lightning strikes, send small teams to assassinate the enemy's leadership, and penetrate defences in a way that simply no other Imperial force can. The issue is that none of that, which doesn't even touch on the superhuman part of things, translate to the tabletop. Drop Pods are crap (do sweet all after they're deployed and even post-CA they're still expensive). If Marines could actually deploy as a 'shock troop' army with the ability to strike suddenly and with overwhelming force then they'd at least have teeth. As it is, they're mildly upgraded Guardsmen which is nowhere near the lore. As mentioned by others, the lore is pretty damn extensive and we have a general picture that has Marines being damn terrifying entities that are one of the top dogs in the galaxy. Not every Marine can take on a Hive Tyrant or Greater Daemon solo and win, and often it'll be a good few of them to do it - but they do it; that's what they were built to do. A Marine Captain on the table can potentially do a number on a Tyrant, and that's cool; but at the lower end it's wrong as sfPanzer points out - a Tactical Marine is an anaemic weakling that wields what amounts to a nerf gun barely any better than a Lasgun: what?! How do they do their job (ie, lightning strikes, assassination) if it takes a hundred of them to even vaguely think about achieving their goal? For comparisons to other races: sure, there are certainly some things that Marines aren't the best at. Howling Banshees are supposedly so fast that even Marines have a hard time tracking them; Carnifexes are obviously ridiculously tough; Greater Daemons are massively powerful. None of these things compact all of their traits into so small a package, nor do they have such a wide skill set - Marines aren't as fast as Banshees, or as tough as a Carnifex, or as powerful as a Greater Daemon; but they are massively more powerful than a Banshee, on a similar level in strength to the Carnifex, and extremely tough to fully kill. While I fully acknowledge that Marines aren't the be all and end all of potent fighters, they are horribly poorly represented on the tabletop. If you bring the lore down to their tabletop level, you'd be looking at Guardsmen in better armour with their Lasguns set to high power (which, by the way, is a thing in the lore: Lasguns are legitimately great weapons), except that'd still be better than current Marines! Primaris are a step towards making some Marines better on the table, but their very presence is basically a sign that GW is going to allow Marines to languish in mediocrity. The best we can hope for is someone to come along and champion them into a new, better Codex 2.0 release, but realistically they're just going to turn that into better Primaris because business. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 To me, the biggest problem is that they were the first codex of a new, significantly different edition. Stratagems, relics, warlord traits, chapter tactics - all were affected by the changes to the core rules, or in the case of Stratagems, didn't exist in prior editions. There's a lot of parts of this codex that suggests a lot of things were greatly restrained. The Stratagems that require 3 of each unit, for example. Chapter Tactics being limited to only Infantry, Bikers, and Dreads as well. Many of those limitations were not carried over in subsequent codex releases. Having said that, I don't feel any longer that there's an issue with the base statline. I think it can still work with the right special rules and points costs without fundamentally altering the data sheet. Having said that, there's a million and a half changes I'd love to see in a redux, but I don't think they're all required to "fix" space marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
antique_nova Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 Moving aside from the can of worms that is narrative v. table, I would lay the majority of C:SM's troubles at the feet of first dex syndrome. The first in a new edition always hurts as rule writers get more comfortable and wilder with the new rules, i.e. stratagems. You can put some issues in that corner, but here's the thing, GWS said that they intended to write pretty much ALL the codecies at the same time. That they would then introduce Chapter approved and more regular updates to keep everything inline. So, from the beginning they must have realised somewhere that C:SM were far too mundane and weak compared to everyone else. If they didn't, then they seriously need new rules and gaming staff, because hiring people just "mostly for the mindset" isn't enough. You need people who are competent at what they do, whether it's doing the grunt work or leading the projects. Right now, it doesn't feel like they have those people and at all really. Yes it's better than previous editions (in a sense), but most of the mistakes they're making are huge and freaking obvious and some downright contradictory and complete knee jerk reactions to bad players complaining about unfairness, when it's really they who suck at the game. It would be a nice thing if they involved GT winners more. I've talked about this in earlier threads, but I'd think that it would be great for the game if official GT winners were given say 30-60 mins to speak with the development team of how they think the game should be changed to be better. It would be good to get so much good feedback and it would be a real eye opener. Plus there's no need for any contracts or anything legal happening. Just a quick call to share their views. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
antique_nova Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 I think that we need to abandon the concept of space marines being super soldiers, and see them as what they are: special forces. No. If you're talking about special forces like Master Chief or Spartan 117 in Halo in comparison to the other enemies meaning colonials or separatists and facing against other advanced aliens like Spartans vs the Covenant. Then yes, I'd accept that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Sadly though as was said, they do NOT play as super soldiers on the table top and until they do they’re more like ARC troopers than they are Spartans. Trevak Del just seems to be looking for a way some of us (me:)) might be helped with our disappointment in their table effects until GW decides to “fix” the power armor/bolter mechanics - assuming Primaris isn’t suppose to be the “fix” :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
antique_nova Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 ARC troopers from Star Wars? In comparison to what? Because their gear wasn't that good compared to the battledroids when considering the tech and quality of space marines verses orks, chaos cultists and anything none elite marine like. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spessmarine Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 A result of decades of "how it has been" baggage and essentially being the base unit for which everything is balanced off of. GW seems to have no interest in redoing standard marines, if you want the more fluffy vibe, you'll have to run with primaris and pretend they are your regular marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Lorewise yes, they are super soldiers, I'm not advocating changing the lore. But they roll over and die to lasguns on the table, which in the lore is super rare. On the tabletop which is arguably all that matters when talking about rules and the wargame as it is and not what we wish it to be, space marines are special forces compared to the other armies. Custodates are super soldiers. I mean, we can dwell on it and cry until we die about this :cuss or accept gw has bungled some stuff in the transition from a skirmish game to 28mm Epic with skirmish rules it has now, or we can accept things as they are and try to play them differently. I mean...if you look at the Dawn of War trailers, ALL of them (except dawn of war 2s trailer) show poor use of Astartes assets (charging with devestators, charging a Knight/Wraithknight with a Sargent) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 That's why DoW2 was the best... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215781 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 The table top isn’t an accurate reflection of what would be happening in unverse. Space marines don’t die to ten lasguns rapid firing into them, they die from lasguns, and grenades, and heavy bolter chugging on full auto. It’s not one single las beam that wounds the space marine, it’s 60 shots from one guy rapidly changing mags and hoping to god the Four Armed Emperor is with him today while his squad mates are throwing grenades left and right. On the table top this is represented as one dice at strength 3 or whatever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 One 3/0/1 attack isn't representing 60(!) Lasgun shots, grenades and Heavy Bolters. It's representing maybe 10(?) Lasgun shots. Is a Commissar's one Bolt Pistol attack actually representing three artillery strikes, an orbital bombardment and a 400-strong bayonet charge? No, it's representing a small handful of pistol shots at most. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 The game is an abstraction. Or do you really think people only shoot 6 to 12 times in a firefight? That heavy bolter team only shoots 3-18 rounds? That a squad of guardsmen shoots the same amount for an enemy 300m away as guys 10 feet from them? The models attack value represents the damage that individual can do, not a specific characteristic of real action. The guardsmen attack profile is the probability of their ability to wound and kill a target relative to that targets own quality. Real world ability is not accurately represented or something as simple as being shot by an autogun, which is a 7.62 caliber round or a heavy stubber round which is anywhere between a real world .50 cal and the heavier anti-material crew served weapons would devastate the simple flak armor of a guardsmen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352293-the-biggest-problem-with-space-marines/page/2/#findComment-5215964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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