Black Templar Captains: A theory.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Before you all jump on the angry bus and denounce me as a heretic. This is not a mistake. I know we don't have captains, we have Marshals.

 

Except... We do have captains. in the Fluff. They're not common, but they're there.

 

The first I could find was Captain Alhaus. He appears on the last page of the 3rd edition space marine codex and is named as one of the advisors to someone who drafted a summary of a typical Space Mariner's day when not on deployment.

 

3rd edition codex I thought, well, that was pre-Armageddon and before our fluff really started to fill out and depart from codex chapters. So, in 4th edition Captains of the Black Templars should be a thing of the past. And then I found this cool bit of fluff in WD 312, (for reference WD311 announced the BT Codex release.)

 

It speaks of the origins of a character who appears on page 2 of the codex. Captain Navarre to whom is attributed the quote: "Your honour is your life. Let none dispute it."

 

So who was he? Well, according to the story (both in WD 312 and codex page 19) during the Terrain Crusade to depose Goge Vandire the Emperor's Champion, Navarre, petitioned Marshal Sigenandus to lead the forlorn hope against the breach in the Tempest Wall. This was following a typically EC vision of him standing triumphant atop the breach.

 

Sigenandus allowed his request and Navarre leads a group of Templars as our brother Fists bombarded the walls. 20 metres from the crest of the breach the banner bearer of the Forlorn hope was killed, dropping the banner. Navarre picked it up kicks arse and takes names atop the breach. Inspiring the Fists and the Fire Hawks anew to take the walls.

 

After the battle Chapter Master Lazarian of the Imperial Fists seeks out the Champion and finds him near death missing an arm and a large portion of skull.

 

No longer would Navarre be the Emperor's Champion, declared Lazarian, from thence forth he would be Captain of the Banner and Guardian of Honour.

 

Now this got me thinking. Perhaps this could be more common than just Navarre, perhaps there are other Captains of the Chapter who happen to be the Champions that don't die in the job? Perhaps Alhaus could be a surviving Champion also?

 

The question is, how many more are there hidden away in the fluff? Can we repatriate them into the fluff in the same way?

 

I know my mind works in strange ways, but it would be nice to sort of resolve the issue of the erroneous captains in a cool, fluffy way, rather than just disregard them as mistakes in the lore.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Brother Adelard

[Cognative]

Neat!

 

It sounds like Captain could be more of a title, much like the captains of different companies in codex chapters are given titles like "Master of the (March/Armoury/Relics/etc)"

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I think so. Something much more honorific.

[Marshal Rohr]

Its definitely an honorific, since Castellan is not a rank but an ad hoc honorific as well. 

[Honda]

Hah, all this time and it never clicked that Navarre was a captain.

 

Hmm...that might make for an interesting Christmas thread, build a captain figure, name him, and provide a short description about him.

[Cognative]

Hmm...that might make for an interesting Christmas thread, build a captain figure, name him, and provide a short description about him.

Well I'm always up for building / painting more characters...

[Canadian_F_H]

there are other possible routes.  if he is captain of an astartes vessel, he is a captain in addition to whatever other role and title he holds.  it would similarly explain why we see so few captains since they are generally busy captaining a vessel to show up in battle which would end up in the fluff.

[Kinstryfe]

It's probably a variant honorific. Kind of like how Garro was, iirc, a "Commander" which was identical in rank to a Captain but was used just because of tradition.

 

It could also be possible that Chapter's unique ranks get standardized when being used outside of the Chapter, so while the BT call someone a Marshall they are officially recognized by the Imperium at large as a Captain, otherwise nobody would know exactly what "Marshall" meant without further context? The official rank is probably something like Alpha-Two-Astartes or something silly for comparing rank between organizations.

[Medjugorje]

It's probably a variant honorific. Kind of like how Garro was, iirc, a "Commander" which was identical in rank to a Captain but was used just because of tradition.

 

It could also be possible that Chapter's unique ranks get standardized when being used outside of the Chapter, so while the BT call someone a Marshall they are officially recognized by the Imperium at large as a Captain, otherwise nobody would know exactly what "Marshall" meant without further context? The official rank is probably something like Alpha-Two-Astartes or something silly for comparing rank between organizations.

Thats very wrong. There are a lot of Chapters with different names. Raven Guard (Shadow Captain), Charchadons (Reaper Prime), Celestial Lions (Warleader), Dark Angels (Company Master), Space Wolves (Wolf Lord), Red Scorpions (Commander), Iron Hands (Iron Captain), White Scars (Khan)....

[Kinstryfe]

 

It's probably a variant honorific. Kind of like how Garro was, iirc, a "Commander" which was identical in rank to a Captain but was used just because of tradition.

It could also be possible that Chapter's unique ranks get standardized when being used outside of the Chapter, so while the BT call someone a Marshall they are officially recognized by the Imperium at large as a Captain, otherwise nobody would know exactly what "Marshall" meant without further context? The official rank is probably something like Alpha-Two-Astartes or something silly for comparing rank between organizations.

 

Thats very wrong. There are a lot of Chapters with different names. Raven Guard (Shadow Captain), Charchadons (Reaper Prime), Celestial Lions (Warleader), Dark Angels (Company Master), Space Wolves (Wolf Lord), Red Scorpions (Commander), Iron Hands (Iron Captain), White Scars (Khan)....

You're correct. I'm just positing that perhaps there's a standardized rank used for clarification in the wider Imperium. Like, if a quote is being included (just an example) in a tactical guide from Marshal Smith. Perhaps he's called "Captain Smith" because anyone unfamiliar with the chapter wouldn't have a clue what a "Marshall" means. Maybe it means Sergeant, maybe Chapter Master, but it's impossible to know without a reference. So while Shrike is a "Shadow Captain" within the chapter, outside the chapter he'd be Official Astartes Rank ABCXYZ, so people would know what his rank is even if they're not an expert on Astartes. Otherwise why would an Astra Militarum Commander hand over command to an Astartes Grand Poobah if that could just mean "Sergeant who carries the mighty stick of whooping".

[Ciler]

there are other possible routes.  if he is captain of an astartes vessel, he is a captain in addition to whatever other role and title he holds.  it would similarly explain why we see so few captains since they are generally busy captaining a vessel to show up in battle which would end up in the fluff.

One of the conversions still in the pipes for me is indeed a space marine with the greatcoat of the sion command squad which I plan to represent the captain of my crusade's fleet.

 

Another possible explanation is that offered by kinstrife just above, since all mentions of captains within the Black templars such as provided in the first post are actually from outsiders to the chapter who may have been introduced to the character as "Captain XXX" for the sake of simplifying interactions ?

[Closet Skeleton]

Its definitely an honorific, since Castellan is not a rank but an ad hoc honorific as well. 

 

Castellan is totally a rank or at least a position. An honorific is a term of address usually associated with being of a certain class or title, I assume what you actually mean is an honour. Castellan would be an honorific when its used to address a Castellan or when his name is written but that honorific would be being used because he's a Castellan by role.

 

Fighting Companies may be temporary/disbandable but they're still a proper command structure, 'ad hoc' is selling them short. I sincerely doubt that former Castellans (Castellans Emeritus?) of disbanded Fighting Companies just end up as regular Sword Brethren again, they probably get some sideways promotion, promoted to Marshall of a splinter Crusade or end up in charge of a new Fighting Company.

[Marshal Vespasian]

Iirc they keep the title as an honour and as such are more equal than their equals.

 

 

I think when it comes to space marine ranks they dont really care to explain it to outsiders. Guard will just do as told by the big immortal killing machines in the field. Even though thats not how its supposed to work after the heresy.

[Marshall Heber]

Do Astartes officially outrank Imperial Guard or would the IG just defer to them because they're the biggest, baddest mothers in the imperium? In which case "I'm the Commanding Officer of these giant space warriors" would be enough. Between Astartes chapters, from what I've read, none would have command over another regardless of rank other than by consensus.

 

I've always wondered about the Emperor's Champion, does he just stay EC until he kicks the bucket or until that particular battle/war is over? If the latter, what happens to him if he survives? To me that is where the honorific title of Captain could come in. He received visions from the Emperor and did many heroic deeds, making him a Sword Brother doesn't seem enough. And that's assuming he wasn't one already. On the other hand these guys are soldiers, a penchant for the dramatic to say the least, but soldiers none the less. Would they really give command to that guy who had a dream and went on a suicidal charge that one time? Seems like a made up title would fit there, he's a great hero with a fancy sounding name like "Captain of the Banner" or "Captain of the Sacred Blade" but no real authority.

[Ciler]

as far as I know, the EC remains the EC for as long as he lives, which is usually not very long anyway.

[Marshal Vespasian]

In theory after the heresy astartes didnt outrank mortals anymore because lots of mortals fell because their astartes Lords fell.

 

In practice if you are a mortal you will do what the immortal murdermonk tells you to do. Even just taking battlefield experience and not getting into superior Intellect and so on.

At least thats how I understand it.

 

 

 

I think the EC is the EC until crusade/battle are over and/or he dies.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Marshal Vespasian

[Marshall Heber]

It just seems vague to me. From the way I've read it, it went from Sigismund appointed as the only Emperor's Champion by Rogal Dorn because he was the best swordsman to any Battle Brother who saw visions before (or, in the case of Renald the Retribution, during) battle, to each crusade having its own champion and occasionally other chapters having one. Although it's kind of a moot point because 99% of the time they don't seem to survive past that particular battle, I just don't think there's a clear answer. Both options present some interesting modelling opportunities (Emperor's Champion Dreadnought or Sword Brother who was once an EC)

 

Back to the Captain idea, it wouldn't necessarily need to be an EC, it could be anyone who hasn't really shown the strategic acumen to be promoted to Marshall or Castellan but has performed a deed of such heroic magnitude that some sort of title or honorary special role had to be given.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Marshall Heber

[Marshall Heber]

Hmm...that might make for an interesting Christmas thread, build a captain figure, name him, and provide a short description about him.

Sounds like a fun little challenge

[Brother Tyler]

The usages of the "captain" rank for the Black Templars characters both appeared before the lore behind the Chapter's ranks and organization was published.

 

The explanation for Navarre's "captaincy" was later retconned to be an honorific granted to him by the Chapters that participated in the Siege of Terra during the Age of Apostasy (the Black Templars, Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, and Soul Drinkers). Navarre's valor led to him being granted the title of "Captain of the Wall" (which, in light of the Beast series, has interesting implications)

 

I don't recall any explanation for Alhaus being given, but I suspect that it would be something similar - an honorific in addition to any official rank. In this, the Black Templars might also use the "Captain" title the way other Chapters use the "Master" (e.g., Master of the Marches) title.

[Medjugorje]

as far as I know, the EC remains the EC for as long as he lives, which is usually not very long anyway.

beside the fact that Sigismund was the very first Emperors Champion and filled that role 1000 years

[Marshall Heber]

In this, the Black Templars might also use the "Captain" title the way other Chapters use the "Master" (e.g., Master of the Marches) title.

Did Master of Sanctity not used to be a thing? And Jurisian was Master of the Forge. I can see how that works for codex compliant chapters that have a set structure of companies, for us it could work for specialised roles such as chaplains, apothecaries or techmarine

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The usages of the "captain" rank for the Black Templars characters both appeared before the lore behind the Chapter's ranks and organization was published.

 

The explanation for Navarre's "captaincy" was later retconned to be an honorific granted to him by the Chapters that participated in the Siege of Terra during the Age of Apostasy (the Black Templars, Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, and Soul Drinkers). Navarre's valor led to him being granted the title of "Captain of the Wall" (which, in light of the Beast series, has interesting implications)

 

I don't recall any explanation for Alhaus being given, but I suspect that it would be something similar - an honorific in addition to any official rank. In this, the Black Templars might also use the "Captain" title the way other Chapters use the "Master" (e.g., Master of the Marches) title.

 

I think it's safe to say that Alhaus is only a captain in reality because Marshals weren't a thing for us until Armageddon came out and he is in effect a relic of those times. (However, we can use Navarre's story as an excuse to retcon the error and argue that Alhaus just had another role.)

 

However, I'm not aware of any reference to Navarre in particular prior to the Codex, so I think it was intentional from the outset that he be a BT Captain. Also, neither the codex or the White Dward refers to him as 'Captain of the Wall' it's Captain of the Banner. Where does that come from?

 

 

While I appreciate the idea that Astartes would use standard ranks within the rest of the Imperium. (In the way that the UK has Field Marshals and the USA created General of the Army, but both have 5* equivalency. Similarly, the RAF doesn't have Lance Corporals, so the RAF Regiment had to eventually rebrand their Senior Aircraftsmen as Lance Corporals because no one in the Army or Marines had a clue what the badge meant. So it's a good theory.

 

However, the theory is trashed by Helsreach. Grimaldus took no time in clearing up that his rank was Reclusiarch and I can't imagine any BT Marshal being bothered enough to call himself 'captain' purely to avoid confusing mortals. (Anyway, we all know that the real way to tell who's in charge of any Astartes force is to see which guy has a cloak and a penchant for standing on little rocks.)

 

I think we could run with Navarre as an example and say that it's not definite that all Champions die. (But that the vast majority will.) But if a Champion fulfils their visions, and miraculously survives, it would be difficult for them to go back to their original role. 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Brother Adelard

[Marshal Rohr]

IIRC, Champion have visions because of a ritual fast, not actual visions.

[Marshall Heber]

IIRC, Champion have visions because of a ritual fast, not actual visions.

Which would explain why they die so much. Sigismund was more like the Company Champion, but for the whole Imperium where the Emperor's Champion that we know is a regular guy who goes head to head with the biggest and baddest of the enemy because of a hallucination he had while hank marvin

[Sword Brother Adelard]

We discussed the Champions thing in a thread a year or so back. As the fluff has aged, the nature of the visions has become more intense and the after effects more powerful. (I can't recall the thread exactly, but it also included my other, more unpopular, theory, that Champions are latent psykers.)