Black Templar Captains: A theory.

[Honda]

Did Master of Sanctity not used to be a thing?

 

 

Yes they were, as well as Reclusiarch.

 

I miss their official rules, but still have them in my crusade (currently led by Master of Sanctity Levi Hesse).

 

The old fluff, the really "good" stuff, it's still there waiting to be used.

[Marshal Rohr]

I like the idea of Reclusiarchs being the chief chaplains of a given crusade, with there being several Arch-Priest Master of Sanctity leading special crusades as their Marshal. Like roving priest knights on missions from the high marshal.

[Sete]

Or maybe, bear with me, they actually get a vision from the Emperor.

Its 40k, we are allowed to have some mysticism.

Being just a weird shroom trip or latent psyker just cheapens the concept.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Sete

[Brother Tyler]

On 12/13/2018 at 7:44 AM, Brother Adelard said:

However, I'm not aware of any reference to Navarre in particular prior to the Codex, so I think it was intentional from the outset that he be a BT Captain. Also, neither the codex or the White Dward refers to him as 'Captain of the Wall' it's Captain of the Banner. Where does that come from?

The quote from "Captain" Navarre actually appeared during 2nd edition.

 

Codex: Ultramarines (2nd Edition) page 23 said:

"Your honour is your life.

Let none dispute it."

Captain Navarre of the Black Templars

So the "Captain of the Banner" thing (I stand corrected) was clearly an attempt to reconcile the title of "Captain" (which was given when the Chapter was a Codex Chapter) with the revised lore (i.e., the post-Codex: Armageddon) for the Black Templars.

 

 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Awesome! I didn't have any pre-third source material, so this is great.

[Marshall Heber]

Was it Chapter Master Lazerian who named him "Captain of the Banner"? As an Imperial Fist surely he wouldn't be able to promote a member of another chapter so could the "Captain of the Banner' be an honorary rank within the IF, a decoration given to members of other chapters who perform great deeds while fighting alongside

[Sword Brother Adelard]

According to our sources, yes it was.

 

Maybe, it clearly isn't a rank as such, as before Navarre was a champion he could have been a plain initiate.

[Honda]

Or maybe, bear with me, they actually get a vision from the Emperor.

 

 

I've always assumed this.

 

Note: I'll have to look for other references, but the vision is kind of a big deal and has a significant impact on the initiate. In the "Lords of Mars" series, the vision Varda receives haunts him and he is hesitant to share it. So I've always interpreted the event as some form of divine  intervention and/or prophecy given by the Emperor.

[Canadian_F_H]

Then again didn't Grimaldus declare somebody an emperor's champion who didn't have a vision? Or did he?

[Firepower]

Then again didn't Grimaldus declare somebody an emperor's champion who didn't have a vision? Or did he?

He declared Priamus the Emperor's Champion when the first died during the Templar's final stand. Sort of an exceptional situation, I'd say.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Firepower

[Honda]

He also said, "Go get your sword", which was in the middle of a bunch of Orks when the EC went down.

 

He did.

[Marshal Rohr]

Mysticism robs you of a level of realism I prefer in my background. Ymmv. The emperor handing out swords in daydreams. That’s no basis of a system for championship. Edited December 15, 2018 by Marshal Rohr

[Canadian_F_H]

Well. I just read it not long ago. Didn't want to spoil all that for anyone. I was just not remembering priamus having a vision as any point. Tho i vaguely remember a line about it in the video series so maybe I just forgot...

 

That being said it was a badassed part imo. And is basically the same as my idea for the "castellan" rank in BT. A castellan being a rank for someone in charge of a castle historically. A Marshall promoting a sword brother to castellan of a fortress that belongs to the enemy. It being a castellan's duty to repel all invaders from his fortress, it is an odd way of saying, "your castle is over run with the enemy, sort it out, your honor is at stake."

[Brother Tyler]

Mysticism robs you of a level of realism I prefer in my background. Ymmv. The emperor handing out swords in daydreams. That’s no basis of a system for championship.

But we definitely get to see the violence inherent in the system.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Mysticism robs you of a level of realism I prefer in my background. Ymmv. The emperor handing out swords in daydreams. That’s no basis of a system for championship.

That's why I like the idea that the vision infuses the champion with a measure of the Emperor's power, through some form of Avatars or psychic ability. It explains how a standard brother goes from being standard to being exceptionally badass.

 

Anywho, did anyone find any other fluff mentions of BT Captains?

[Honda]

Mysticism robs you of a level of realism I prefer in my background. Ymmv. The emperor handing out swords in daydreams. That’s no basis of a system for championship.

 

 

And that's a fair statement to make. I think the other side of the coin is that in a universe that is inhabited by an overwhelming amount of mystical/spiritual circumstances and beings, that it is reasonable to see how the most powerful psyker known to the Imperium, who many do not believe is dead, could impart another individual with a presence or belief beyond their current experiences  and capabilities.

 

If you think about it, that's one of the reasons the Imperium hunts down psykers with such ruthlessness, because many have the capability of imparting a false reality without the suspecting individual's knowledge.

 

 

I was just not remembering priamus having a vision as any point. Tho i vaguely remember a line about it in the video series so maybe I just forgot...

 

 

SPOILER:

In the story he did not receive a vision.

 

 

He was the equivalent of  a company champion in Grimaldus retinue. It  seems he "expected" to eventually become an Emperor's champion because of his skills with a blade, but as we discovered in "Lords of Mars", the best swordsman is not necessarily going to be given the vision.

 

Which I like the idea of, because it infers the concept that you cannot earn the Emperor's blessing, it is a gift/responsibility that is given freely.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Honda

[Sete]

On Eternal Crusader a Neophyte receives the Vision.

When he is fighting Helbrecth notes that he fights as if he had centuries of experience.

 

It's as if his actions are not his own anymore and he is possessed by a vengeance given form. (This is actually stated in the last codex SM I think)

So my pet theory is that somehow the Emperor saved part of the spirit of Sigismund and imparts upon a chosen vessel his "experience"

 

Do not forget that he does ressurrect celestine, so it's in his abilities to bestow powers upon people.

Hence the Black Templars are the Emperor's Chosen.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Sete

[Canadian_F_H]

That or Sigismund literally haunts his chapter. His anger and oath won't let him move on. The crusade is eternal!

[Firepower]

That or Sigismund literally haunts his chapter. His anger and oath won't let him move on. The crusade is eternal!

Never thought of this myself, and that fact infuriates me. :P

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Sigismund: Angry from beyond the grave.

 

It's not too dissimilar from the Black Rage if that is how it works, it's just a little bit more practical!

[Ciler]

On Eternal Crusader a Neophyte receives the Vision.

When he is fighting Helbrecth notes that he fights as if he had centuries of experience.

 

It's as if his actions are not his own anymore and he is possessed by a vengeance given form. (This is actually stated in the last codex SM I think)

So my pet theory is that somehow the Emperor saved part of the spirit of Sigismund and imparts upon a chosen vessel his "experience"

 

Do not forget that he does ressurrect celestine, so it's in his abilities to bestow powers upon people.

Hence the Black Templars are the Emperor's Chosen.

This is a very "dangerous" theory, actually, as some people have posited that Celestine, other saints and the legion of the damn are essentially "daemons" of the Emperor, which would more or less make the EC a daemonhost of sort. 

 

If it where true, it would be quite ironic, with due consideration to the contempt in which Templars hold all things psychic. BUt then this is a grimdark setting so that sort of bleak irony/hypocrisy isn't entirely unlikely.

[Kinstryfe]

Well, in 40k belief is power, even among non psychics. So if you have who knows how many Astartes, plus who knows how many chapter serfs, plus anyone on a planet they've saved, and anyone who's heard those stories all legitimately believing that the Champion is one of the best swordsmen ever, then whomever is the Champion could end up being one of the best swordsmen ever, regardless of what skills he possessed going into the role. It may be fortuitous that the title is simply Emperor's Champion. In essence the player loses their self and becomes the role, and throughout the Imperium the role is huge.

[Medjugorje]

I love the ideal

[FaultlessCube]

Captain Navarre first gets a mention as far as I can tell back in 1995 in the 2nd edition Ultramarine codex. This is where we hear the quote attributed to him “Your honour is your life, let none dispute it”. 
 

HOWEVER… it is clear from this codex that the lore of the black templars was not yet fully formed as they later show a picture of a black templar with green trim and try to tell us he is from the 4th company if you go by the Codex Astartes markings. They even have a tactical squad marking on his shoulder. Obviously there is no such thing as the 4th company and no such thing as a black templar tactical marine.

Instead of companies, we have crusades, instead of tactical squads, crusader squads and instead of captains, marshals.

Therefore I propose that this so-called ‘Captain’ Navarre was simply a mistake that GW try to cover up in later editions but still clinging to the title ‘Captain’ in an attempt to not have to change established lore.

[Medjugorje]

This is more likely. But maybe GW will create new lore again.