Dark Crystal Matter (DCM) and Warp Time (WT)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Can you cast WT on a unit that has used DCM the same turn ?

[BrotherAetherick]

No. The redeploy counts them as arriving as reinforcements.

 

From codex space marines FAQ

 

Q: Can the Auspex Scan Stratagem be used to shoot an enemy unit that is removed from the battlefield and then set up again, for example, when using a teleport homer?

 

A: Yes.

 

 

and then from Big rulebook FAQ

 

The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.). 

 

Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex: Tyranids, etc.?

 

A: No.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Thanks !

[antique_nova]

No. The redeploy counts them as arriving as reinforcements.

 

From codex space marines FAQ

 

Q: Can the Auspex Scan Stratagem be used to shoot an enemy unit that is removed from the battlefield and then set up again, for example, when using a teleport homer?

 

A: Yes.

 

 

and then from Big rulebook FAQ

 

The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.). 

 

Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex: Tyranids, etc.?

 

A: No.

Wrong.

 

It's been cleared up before and now it's as clear as day with the new chapter approved rules.

 

Units that arrive via the DMC DO NOT count as reinforcements. Nowhere is it stated in any books (Orks with Da Jump, Thousand Sons with DMC, Grey Knights Interceptors) that units on the table at the beginning of the turn that then suddenly move from point A to B from either relic or physic powers count as reinforcements. Nor do they count as reserves.

 

Source: Thousand Son's codex.

 

[RELIC] Dark Matter Crystal: Once per battle, at the end of your Movement phase, you can select the bearer or a friendly THOUSAND SONS INFANTRY unit within 12" of him. Remove that unit from the battlefield and immediately set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" from any enemy models. This does not count as Falling Back if the unit was within 1" of any enemy models.

 

Source: BIG FAQ 2 - 2018 - Page 5

 

Tactical Reserves: Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.

 

It clearly states here that units that aren't even deployed in the deployment phase, only to come on later, count as reinforcements.

 

Source: Chapter Approved 2018 - Page 31

 

I've highlighted the most important parts in red

 

Reserves - Reserves are forces which are not directly present at the start of battle, but are available as reinforcements. If a mission uses Reserves, it will detail which units in your army start the game in Reserve – these units are not deployed with the rest of your army. The mission will usually state when the units placed in Reserve arrive on the battlefield – this is typically at the end of a particular Movement phase. If the mission does not specify when units arrive, roll for each unit at the end of your second Movement phase (and at the end of each of your Movement phases thereafter) – this is called a Reserve roll. On a 3+, the unit being rolled for arrives from Reserve. Note that if a unit placed into Reserve is embarked within a TRANSPORT, they will arrive when their transport does, not separately (if rolling, make a single roll for the transport and the units embarked in it).

 

The mission will explain how and where to set up units when they arrive from Reserve.

 

I don't know from which FAQ you're quoting what you said, but it's in none of the FAQs, BRB or Chapter Approved books at all, because I've just downloaded them all again directly from the GWS website and cannot find any mention of what you quoted.

[Panzer]

Sorry to break it to you but the highlighted parts of what you quote there only say that such a unit doesn't count as reserve, which was never debated. However it doesn't say that it doesn't count as arriving as reinforcements.

[antique_nova]

Sorry to break it to you but the highlighted parts of what you quote there only say that such a unit doesn't count as reserve, which was never debated. However it doesn't say that it doesn't count as arriving as reinforcements.

 

Rules are Written:

 

For:

• Nothing in DMC description that DMC units are reinforcements.
• Reinforcements are never stated as units that were on the table at the beginning of the turn and then suddenly moving from point A to B via spell, stratagem or special ability.

 

Against: 

• Nothing

 

 

Rules as intended:

 

For:

• All reinforcement rules always talk about units in reserve, which are rules that weren't set up before the battle began or left the table and tried to get back onto the table after being away from it. They never talk about units already on the table at the start of the turn/battle.
• Wording was never changed and no new rules to address it over 12 months with 2 Chapter Approved & 2 big FAQs.
• DMC + Warptime is also only a one use per battle and can only work for Thousand Son units. Not exactly OP that it needs to be nerfed hard, but very powerful.
• The Genestealer Cult's Cult Ambush ability - They Came From Below - Set the unit up anywhere that is more than 9" from any enemy models. The unit can then move normally, even though it has just arrived as reinforcements. - Now even with the FAQ that Brother Aetherick, this still works, because it said "even though it just has arrived as reinforcements". However, the point is, it's clearly stated that the unit arrives are reinforcements and any genestealer unit using this clearly isn't even on the table to begin with, so please refer back to the first point arguing FOR rules as intended.

 

Against:

• Reinforcements wording in BRB talk about units arriving on the table midgame counting as reinforcements with a few fluffy examples.

 

 

While, I did manage to find Brother Aetherick's quote on page 5 of the Rulebook FAQ. His argument is still invalid, because if you look he has nothing to win the RAW argument and a very weak point in the RAI argument, where the points for in RAI are so much stronger.

 

So, you I don't see any reason why you can't warptime any target that used the DMC that turn.

[Panzer]

Literally nothing about the argument changed so if you aren't convinced yet nothing I can say would.

[BlackTriton]

The rules for redeploying are confusing and not well explained anywhere. 

In most clarification, you are considered arriving from reserve.

yet, you are not restricted the same way.

 

Most of the argument are conclusion from other questions or missing peices of text here and there.

I will not pretend to know the absolute awnser.

 

What I can tell you is that It is largely agreed that unit that redeploy's (DMC, The jump, tide of traiter etc.) are legible to "comming from reserve" rules and restricted from moving any further.

I higly suggest you ask your opponent / TO beforhand if you wish to use another interpretation, to avoid conflict since, again, the usually agreed rules are that you cannot.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

What does ITC say ?

[BlackTriton]

What does ITC say ?

 

Does not combine.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Could you please provide their public ruling on this matter ?

[Dam13n]

At this point it bears mentioning that ITC rulings do not equal official rules. They are house rulings for the ITC events.

 

So, unless there is anything official from GW that could prolong this discussion, then I'd suggest leaving it lie.

 

Further non-official rules discussion will result in this thread being locked.

[BlackTriton]

I was able to find a clarification on WH40k official facebook page

I assume that count as official rules?

 

here it is:

 

 

 [name]: I need to ask this but with the [new] reserve rules if you take a unit out of play and then back into play e.g. Gate to infinity turn one do you deploy in your deployment zone or as normal?

Warhammer 40,000 - [name] as we've said above, they are only counted as reinforcements in terms of movement, which the FAQ itself asks. They count as having moved, they cannot be targetted by abilities like Warptime and they will suffer a -1 to Hit penalty with Heavy weapons. It does not preclude them from using abilities like 'Da Jump'. If it did, we would not have included it in the post above.

furthermore, the same discussion clarified that "reinforcement" and "reserve" are not the same thing.

 

From the main rulebook FAQ:

 

 

Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?

A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.

reserves are unit that did not start the battle round on the table, where reinforcement is anything that "teleports" in. 

 

for completion sake, the rules that prevent reinforcement from being affected by movement ability:

 

 

The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.).

Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex: Tyranids, etc.?

A: No.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The reason I mentioned ITC is because they often discuss rules directly with GW so it’s possible they could know the true intent.