Knight Castellan for AdMech - viable?

[MajorNese]

Greetings, fellow servants of the Omnissiah.

 

As the new dominus knights look really awesome and suitably massive, I'll add one to my collection anyway. The question however is, is it viable to add it to an AdMech army at 2000 points, or is dunking almost a third of the army's points (and quite a few CP) into one model unreasonable, putting all eggs into one basket? Especially considering the recent points drops for AdMech, 600p is quite a bit (I'll have to calculate the exact value when CA is out, hate those low-res pics).

 

As a rough first draft of a list that I'd have in mind:

Stygies:

-dominus

-3x enginseer (WL, necromechanic)

-3x5 ranger

-3x10 vanguard (1 plasma each, or maybe data tether, maybe split them to smaller units)

-1x4 dragoons

-2x neutronager

 

House Raven:

-knight castellan

-2x armiger warglaive

 

With double BTL and a superheavy detachment, I'll have 16 CP to burn. Exalted Court and Heirlooms of Conquest give the castellan a 4++ and Carl's Cannon of Ultimate Death. Considering I'd use most CPs on Potato Ion Shields (3 CP), Raven strat (2 CP) and additional repairs (1CP), I'll definitely need all those CP.

 

With the advancing warglaives and dragoons, I'd have some distraction for enemy AT. Neutronagers are so cheap now, they are too good to pass, providing additional AT and with BS strat can hit flyers on a 2+. Skitarii fill the board and sit on objectives - not enough of them to truly flood it. Enginseers camp the vehicles, dominus buffs neutronagers or skitarii. Downside, the repair is limited to 4W per round, unlike my converted Baneblade (mostly 6-8). If anyone wants that one model dead, it will probably be dead rather soon.

 

Could this work?

I've been out of the gaming loop for half a year, I don't know what passes for lists these days. Last time I tried a knight (atropos, 2+/3++ with WT/Relic/Rotate), it went down to 3 wounds in first round by massed IG fire and the +1 to hit stratagem - admittedly, it charged the gunline to get in range, but would have easily died with less than the 2+/3++. The dominus can't have both the Carl Cannon and the 2+, but the former seems necessary to deal real damage.

[Clingy]

I like your list. I haven’t tried a Castellan yet but I will be doing something similar when I get mine table ready.

 

As for fretting about spending 600 points on a model/unit. Just look at dakkabots people spend 550/660 quite often on a big blob. Similar situation really and it often works out well for them even though the bots are rooted in place. The knight can move.

[MajorNese]

As for fretting about spending 600 points on a model/unit. Just look at dakkabots people spend 550/660 quite often on a big blob. Similar situation really and it often works out well for them even though the bots are rooted in place. The knight can move.

I tend to not do the big expensive unit thing, as it regularly backfired with just a few lucky/unlucky rolls. I even got to the point of playing marines without any vehicles or unit over 200p, and made good experiences with it. But with knights, there is no way to shave off points or split to smaller units - take it or leave it. Which is why I'm asking about experiences with this kind of unit, as I usually don't field them.

[Heliomanes]

Shouldn't this be in the army list forum? Anyway - the Castellan is one of the best units in the game now, and is a staple in high level Imperium lists - so, yeah, it is a good choice. Don't be surprised if it gets a rules nerf in a few months though.

[Frostglaive]

There's a reason why a House Raven Castellan shows up in a lot of Imperial Soup tournament lists. It's good. Start throwing CP at it as well for the Order of Companions stratagem, the Ion Bulwark WL trait, and the Cawl's Wrath relic, it's really good.

[MajorNese]

Shouldn't this be in the army list forum?

...maybe? The list was just quickly cobbled together to give an impression of the army context for the castellan, but I'm mostly interested in how the castellan would perform, in offensive and defense. So far, I've only seen it on paper, but someone in this forum probably has some experience with it.

 

That it is considered one of the best units is new to me - its profile doesn't look too different from a regular knight, it just has more different guns all around. The atropos can be considerably more resilient (cheaper Rotate, 4++ base) while cheaper, and that one still died on me every time. Granted, it has to go closer to do its job.

 

I've found that threat management can keep units alive in a way that their profile never could, which is why the list context matters IMO. In that regard I'm not sure how far up the castellan is placed on the target priority, when also including neutronagers/warglaives in the same target category.

If it were the only big target, mathhammer could solve that issue rather quickly.

[Focslain]

As some-one that runs a castellan on a regular bases I can say your wasting your CP rotating the shield. Ion bulwark is a must take but that's all you need. From there it's a matter of threat elimination. Drop units that can be a serious threat to your knight and that will be the better defense then popping 3CP you can use in repair and other strats.

[Heliomanes]

It usually features in variants of "the list" - seen in most tournaments this past season. 30 guardsmen, 2 commanders, perhaps some artillery fire, a House Raven Castellan and then you spend the rest on either Blood Angels for scouts and Smash captains, or Custodes for their bikes. The point being you have the Castellan to shoot out anything with multiple wounds, and threaten characters with its missiles, while the guard take care of infantry and grab objectives, and the aggressive part of the list charges forward to take out anything remotely threatening, delay the opponent and/or contest objectives.

"Order of companions" let you reroll all 1s, even the ones you roll when determining the amount of shots you get this turn. It is incredibly good on the Castellan. You get 4++ through the warlord trait, and can still go for 3++  in extremis even if it is expensive command points wise. In "the list" the point is usually to shoot and assault the opponent off the table in a turn or two, and a Raven Castellan contributes to that very well.

[MajorNese]

As some-one that runs a castellan on a regular bases I can say your wasting your CP rotating the shield. Ion bulwark is a must take but that's all you need. From there it's a matter of threat elimination. Drop units that can be a serious threat to your knight and that will be the better defense then popping 3CP you can use in repair and other strats.

Good to know. The number of different threats might be rather low at that range, my previous knight experience was always at rapid fire range of pretty much anything.

 

Though Rotate might ne necessary once if going second, to ensure the survival until it can thin down those targets.

 

It usually features in variants of "the list" - seen in most tournaments this past season. 30 guardsmen, 2 commanders, perhaps some artillery fire, a House Raven Castellan and then you spend the rest on either Blood Angels for scouts and Smash captains, or Custodes for their bikes. The point being you have the Castellan to shoot out anything with multiple wounds, and threaten characters with its missiles, while the guard take care of infantry and grab objectives, and the aggressive part of the list charges forward to take out anything remotely threatening, delay the opponent and/or contest objectives.

Well, not staying up to date with tournaments, I didn't know that one. But good to know it won't be just a shelf warmer. I'm just looking for another nice centerpiece for my AdMech that might be more playable than the Ordinatus (yeah, still no rules). Or something to add to that army in general, since Cyraxus got delayed until after Mars is settled IRL.

[Heliomanes]

I feel for you, my friend. I've got thousands of points of lovingly painted Mechanicum units warming my shelves, but the way the Ordinatus was treated was the most aggravating bit. It even had experimental rules for 40k, they just never ported them to 8th. My mouth tastes like bile just by thinking about it.

But yeah the Castellan is a great unit, and will do well as a centerpiece. I went for the much less points efficient Porphyrion myself, but I really hope that they fix the Valiant soon. Just the idea and sheer impractical spectacle of a Knight with a harpoon and a gatling flamer is the most 40k idea since arco-flagellants and power fists.  Love it.

[brother_b]

Shouldn't this be in the army list forum? Anyway - the Castellan is one of the best units in the game now, and is a staple in high level Imperium lists - so, yeah, it is a good choice. Don't be surprised if it gets a rules nerf in a few months though.

The idea that good units should get nerfed because they're good has always been strange to me but I get why the internet always makes nerfing a topic of conversation. Soup du jour is a thing though.

 

Hopefully it won't get nerfed.

[Clingy]

 

Shouldn't this be in the army list forum? Anyway - the Castellan is one of the best units in the game now, and is a staple in high level Imperium lists - so, yeah, it is a good choice. Don't be surprised if it gets a rules nerf in a few months though.

The idea that good units should get nerfed because they're good has always been strange to me but I get why the internet always makes nerfing a topic of conversation. Soup du jour is a thing though.

 

Hopefully it won't get nerfed.

I’ve never understood this approach to balancing. Rather than nerf the latest hotness it would be far more interesting to bring other underperforming things up to par.

 

It also seems an oversimplified approach to balancing. I’d argue the knight Castellan isn’t overpowered. Play it as Krast or Taranis, is it that bad? Nope it’s the order of companions stratagem that the world and his dog are enjoying. If Gw nerf the unit as a whole without thinking about the why I’ll be frustrated.

[Heliomanes]

More interesting and more work intensive, which means more expensive for GW. Expecting them to balance all other units up to the level of the few best units seems like an unlikely bet, but it would sure be the dream.

[Vel'Cona]

This topic needs to get back focused on AdMech/Castellan setup.  In that effort, I'd say the Castellan+Armigers is a good build since it has obvious synergy and cost effectiveness.  As per the hotness of CA points drops, I'll state the obvious that AdMech becoming much more reasonable points-wise means that running the two together is less burdensome than before.  While AdMech can't beat IG for CP farming (which itself is beta-rules nerfed but that hasn't stopped the soup), I feel that we can bring better guns to back up the durability of the Knights, especially with Vigilus Formations making Robots and Kataphrons much more useful.  I'm fiddling with a few such lists myself, though I haven't finalized anything as of yet.