Black Legion Rivalries

[Marshal Rohr]

To avoid detailing the other threads,

 

 

The Black Legion has no ‘rivalries’ the way the Iron Warriors have the Imperials Fists or the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons. The Black Templars certainly have no rivalry with the Black Legion and losing Sigismund to Abaddon is not as important as losing Sanguinius to Horus. Regardless, Horus was the Primarch of the Sons of Horus and hate Abaddon as an extension of that. The Blood Angels are not the Black Legions rival, as the Black Legion has no rival. It is a Legion, and the Imperium can only offer tiny chapters in its defense. You would not say a JV football team is the rival of the New England patriots because Tom Brady used to play them when he was on a different JV team.

[The Doctor Of War]

The Black Legion may not have any "rivals" within the Imperium, but there are a number of examples of rivals within Eyespace. The resurgent Emperor's Children, for example, found within the Fabius Bile novels, along with earlier groups that certainly contested Abaddons rise to prominence.

When it comes to realspace, i'd imagine its hard to begin a true rivalry when one side disappears for thousands of years at a time.

[DuskRaider]

The Blood Angels have a rival and that's the Sons of Horus / Black Legion. Whether the Legion sees it the same I'm unsure. While the Black Legion takes in all sorts under their banner (be it by choice or force) they are at their core the Sons of Horus. The majority of Legionnaires in the Legion are Sons of Horus.

[Morovir]

Also, bear in mind that while the Black Legion see themselves as reborn from failure, the Imperium does not see them that way.

[Marshal Loss]

To be honest, I strongly doubt that the majority of the Legion's members are OG Sons of Horus. The XVI had been decimated even before the Legion was founded, and they've had 10,000 years to take all kinds of scum and villainy into their ranks. Their culture stains the Legion, sure, but BL isn't SOH + friends. Perhaps it's a safer bet to say that Horus' brood represent the largest bloodline rather than the majority of the Legion itself.

 

As for the Blood Angels, their obsession is with the Talon (and he who wields it), not the Legion itself. I think the old BL codex states it well enough:

 

 

 

Since the day that Horus slew their Primarch, Sanguinius, the Blood Angels have held a burning hatred for Abaddon - he who wears the very claw that once throttled the life from their gene-sire. Over the millennia, Abaddon has taken great delight in nurturing this hatred, reveling in each Blood Angel life taken with the infamous Talon of Horus. The annals of the Blood Angels are littered with the names of those slain by Abaddon's fell weapon, but even amongst these extensive records, the Battle of Mackan is held in righteous  abhorrence for the sheer number of their battle-brothers slain by the Despoiler.

[Sete]

Think you guys are mixing Black Legion with Sons of Horus.

They are not the same entity.

While Black Legion rose from the ashes of the Sons they are their own thing.

 

Yeah Abbadon uses the Talon that killed Sanguinius, and it drives BA a bit crazy.

 

Sigismund almost killed Abbadon almost destroying the nascent Legion. Their first major encounter after leaving the eye almost destroyed them.

 

I think that would qualify the BT for a bitter rivlary.

[The Doctor Of War]

 

To be honest, I strongly doubt that the majority of the Legion's members are OG Sons of Horus. The XVI had been decimated even before the Legion was founded, and they've had 10,000 years to take all kinds of scum and villainy into their ranks. Their culture stains the Legion, sure, but BL isn't SOH + friends. Perhaps it's a safer bet to say that Horus' brood represent the largest bloodline rather than the majority of the Legion itself.

 

As for the Blood Angels, their obsession is with the Talon (and he who wields it), not the Legion itself. I think the old BL codex states it well enough:

 

 

 

Since the day that Horus slew their Primarch, Sanguinius, the Blood Angels have held a burning hatred for Abaddon - he who wears the very claw that once throttled the life from their gene-sire. Over the millennia, Abaddon has taken great delight in nurturing this hatred, reveling in each Blood Angel life taken with the infamous Talon of Horus. The annals of the Blood Angels are littered with the names of those slain by Abaddon's fell weapon, but even amongst these extensive records, the Battle of Mackan is held in righteous  abhorrence for the sheer number of their battle-brothers slain by the Despoiler.

 

 

I'd say that quote disproves the initial assertion in this thread that the Black Legion has no rivals in the Imperium, given it's clearly showing Abaddon has a particular interest in making the Blood Angels suffer and hate him in return.

[Vykes]

Pah, the BT are just bitter in general, ain't no rivalry there.  

 

I'd say that it's probably true, the Black Legion in its current iteration has no real rivalries outside of maybe some ill-ease regarding the Emperor's Children due to that outstanding proto-Black Legion issue.  The Blood Angels are more like the age old enemy, not a rivalry but a noted 'ancestral' foe.  It's more one sided in how much the Angels loath the inheritors of the Warmaster, who are the Black Legion while --as Morovir mentioned-- the primary tenet of the Black Legion is casting off the past to embrace the Long War.  They're no longer the Sons of Horus, no longer the same legion who marched on Terra in the past.  That's a different identity, even if some of the individuals remain the same.

[Marshal Loss]

 

I'd say that quote disproves the initial assertion in this thread that the Black Legion has no rivals in the Imperium, given it's clearly showing Abaddon has a particular interest in making the Blood Angels suffer and hate him in return.

 

It describes a rivalry with Abaddon specifically, not his Legion. The thread's assertion is that the Black Legion has no rivals, not that Abaddon doesn't enjoy the impact his talon has on the descendants of Sanguinius.

[Sete]

It could easily be expanded upon.

After all is basically a year old lore.

 

I personally think it would be cool to have, like I said previously, the forces of the 2 most famous 1st captains as rivals.

Diametrically opposed, one trying to destroy the vision of the Emperor while the other the last chapter upholding it.

 

BA are busy with khorne daemons at the moment :P

[Marshal Loss]

It could be expanded upon, but it hasn't been, rendering the whole point as conjecture rather than fact. And when you think about the spirit of the Black Templars more specifically, I actually would much prefer they don't have any singular rival (although I can understand it would be attractive being described as the polar opposites of the setting's ultimate bad guys). They are the spirit of the Great Crusade made manifest, the last crusaders, and as such I'd rather they hate everything equally.

 

Think back to the Black Legion novel: Sigismund showed the Black Legion nothing but regal disdain. They were nothing to him - less than nothing, even though he'd been watching the Eye of Terror for close to a thousand years. That's exactly how all Traitors should be to the Black Templars. Nothing. Less than nothing. They don't deserve being recognised as rivals to the Sons of Sigismund.

[Marshal Rohr]

For all their size and strength, the Templars are still only the size of a single middling grade warband when all together. That is not a rivalry. That’s a righteous and ancient hatred, but the Templars could not have beaten the million legionaries the Black Legion brought with them through the Eye during the First Black Crusade. The Black Legion doesn’t spare a thought to the Black Templars.

 

A rivalry requires a mutual hatred and similar level of power (if nation/institution) or ability (if personal). Rivalries hold the potential for either side to win. Even if the Black Templars carry a torch of loathing for the Black Legion for 9000 years, it doesn’t matter to the Black Legion. They’re just another group of loyalist marines to hate. Only the ancient black legionaries May recognize them as Sigismunds descendants, and even then after 9000 years, they’ve killed hundreds and hundreds heroes of the Imperium.

[Sete]

It could be expanded upon, but it hasn't been, rendering the whole point as conjecture rather than fact. And when you think about the spirit of the Black Templars more specifically, I actually would much prefer they don't have any singular rival (although I can understand it would be attractive being described as the polar opposites of the setting's ultimate bad guys). They are the spirit of the Great Crusade made manifest, the last crusaders, and as such I'd rather they hate everything equally.

 

Think back to the Black Legion novel: Sigismund showed the Black Legion nothing but regal disdain. They were nothing to him - less than nothing, even though he'd been watching the Eye of Terror for close to a thousand years. That's exactly how all Traitors should be to the Black Templars. Nothing. Less than nothing. They don't deserve being recognised as rivals to the Sons of Sigismund.

Bah I hate you for being right

For all their size and strength, the Templars are still only the size of a single middling grade warband when all together. That is not a rivalry. That’s a righteous and ancient hatred, but the Templars could not have beaten the million legionaries the Black Legion brought with them through the Eye during the First Black Crusade. The Black Legion doesn’t spare a thought to the Black Templars.

 

A rivalry requires a mutual hatred and similar level of power (if nation/institution) or ability (if personal). Rivalries hold the potential for either side to win. Even if the Black Templars carry a torch of loathing for the Black Legion for 9000 years, it doesn’t matter to the Black Legion. They’re just another group of loyalist marines to hate. Only the ancient black legionaries May recognize them as Sigismunds descendants, and even then after 9000 years, they’ve killed hundreds and hundreds heroes of the Imperium.

They only needed to beat one for the thing to fall apart ;)

 

So basically you are saying BL has no rival, except the mighty hammer of the Emperor?

Ah it was Creed all along in that bush with a titan.

[Scribe]

Marshall Loss, crushes it again.

[Marshal Rohr]

I’m saying the Black Legion has no rival because Satan and the Armies of Hell have no rival save one, and he’s dead and enthroned in the 40k universe.

[Sete]

I’m saying the Black Legion has no rival because Satan and the Armies of Hell have no rival save one, and he’s dead and enthroned in the 40k universe.

There we disagree.

Abbadon might lead the armies of hell, but he ain't Satan. Just a pawn for the true god's of the warp.

 

And if Sigismund thought so little of the traitor legions he would not wait 1000 years for them.

He alone knew they would return and bring hell with them.

 

So while I agree that traitors should be treated as less than nothing they still pose a threat that was recognized by one chapter while all others forgot.

[Marshal Rohr]

You just said three unrelated thing. The first isn’t true, it’s clearly stated Abaddon hears the whispers of the Gods but refuses to be their slave. Sigismund thinking the traitors are less than nothing is a reflection of how he feels about their character, not their material threat to the galaxy.

[Red_Shift]

I'm just going to sit back and watch two of my favourite posters slog it out. Kudos to Marshall Loss for a great post earlier. Personally I think if the black legion underestimate the sons of Dorn or Sanguinious then they will be beaten back to the eye, again.

[Laughingman]

For all this talk of the Black Legion being a "Legion", I'm still unconvinced, If the books are any indication as time goes on Abaddon has a harder and harder time keeping the disparate elements of his forces together in a meaningful strategic way. They are not the well oiled, multifaceted, legions of old, they are a collection of larger warbands and factions united under a single banner, had they truly been legion the Imperium would have lost long ago... 

[DuskRaider]

To be honest, I strongly doubt that the majority of the Legion's members are OG Sons of Horus. The XVI had been decimated even before the Legion was founded, and they've had 10,000 years to take all kinds of scum and villainy into their ranks. Their culture stains the Legion, sure, but BL isn't SOH + friends. Perhaps it's a safer bet to say that Horus' brood represent the largest bloodline rather than the majority of the Legion itself.

When Abaddon descended upon Maeleum he gave the Legion and ultimatum: join his cause or be destroyed. The vast majority took an oath of fealty to the new Warmaster, some were massacred and a small number escaped and became the True Sons. I don't think we're ever given numbers but I'd say there were still a good number of XVIth left since it was such a large Legion. At the very least I can see aspirants given Horus' geneseed.

[Scribe]

I'm on my phone so can't really lay it out, but if there is a Satan in 40K, and the Warp is it's Hell. Abaddon, is that Satan.

 

People are downplaying the position of the BL in the setting, as usual.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Black legion is more universally despised. Kinda like the "flag ship" of chaos vs the imperium as a whole.

 

I find the BL rather bland to be honest. Not quite here there. (Or anywhere for that matter)

 

If I would have to rationalise a "rivaly" though the most logical does appear to be the BA's. But to my knowledge there isn't a great deal of documented conflict between the two forces prior to or post heresy, baring the imperial palace which was multi legionary.

 

Only that their respective Primarchs had fight (one I'm sure they both really didn't wanna have in some way)

 

I'd say you've got more a chance of the Dark Angels having a better fluff piece for rivaly with the BL. It's a shame that was never avenue fully explored.

[Sete]

You just said three unrelated thing. The first isn’t true, it’s clearly stated Abaddon hears the whispers of the Gods but refuses to be their slave. Sigismund thinking the traitors are less than nothing is a reflection of how he feels about their character, not their material threat to the galaxy.

Willing or not, he IS a slave to the dark gods.

Whether he admits it or not is irrelevant. His soul is damned.

 

Fair enough on the second point, can't argue.

Their lack of caracther does not make them any less dangerous. But I would expect BT to have a pet peeve with the dudes that defiled the halls of the eternal crusader, killed their first High Marshall and vandalized the black sword.

 

You didn't address the third one.

 

Again, if a anyone is satan, it is Lorgar.

[Trevak Dal]

The black legion appeals to me because they aren't a single genetic stock and can more thematically be a truly combined arms/specialization army.

 

The Black Legion summed up in a movie reference:

 

https://youtu.be/tcc2ltIjNU0

[Marshal Loss]

 

To be honest, I strongly doubt that the majority of the Legion's members are OG Sons of Horus. The XVI had been decimated even before the Legion was founded, and they've had 10,000 years to take all kinds of scum and villainy into their ranks. Their culture stains the Legion, sure, but BL isn't SOH + friends. Perhaps it's a safer bet to say that Horus' brood represent the largest bloodline rather than the majority of the Legion itself.

When Abaddon descended upon Maeleum he gave the Legion and ultimatum: join his cause or be destroyed. The vast majority took an oath of fealty to the new Warmaster, some were massacred and a small number escaped and became the True Sons. I don't think we're ever given numbers but I'd say there were still a good number of XVIth left since it was such a large Legion. At the very least I can see aspirants given Horus' geneseed.

 

 

It's likely there were relatively few left to begin with - your account is the simplified version from the BL codex. Their fortress world was ransacked and its gene-seed reserves desecrated and stolen by the Emperor's Children even before Abaddon arrived. He had to utilise seers, spending many years hunting down the remainder of the Sons of Horus in order to give them his ultimatum. Right from the beginning, that means their only surviving gene-seed reserves were those kept aboard warships (see: Amurael's Viridian Sky). They were a relatively large legion during the Heresy, but when one takes into account their losses during that war, and the fact that everybody gangs up on them in the wake of the Scouring - there's a reason why ADB published a short titled Extinction - it seems clear that there weren't many left, and I don't think we can safely assert that BL applicants going forward are being given majority XVI gene-seed. Therefore while it's not ironclad, we can postulate with reasonable certainty that the majority of the Black Legion aren't Sons of Horus.