Vigilus Defiant & Chaos

[Iron_Within]

 

[Moustache twirling intensifies]

 

But yeah, reading the fluff in Vigilus Defiant - there is a part that specifically says in no uncertain terms that Abaddon will be there to claim Vigilus personally in 80 days. Doesn't mean he'll necessarily get a model update, but...

 

Unrelated, there's also a sly wink and a nod to all the people complaining that OldMarines are obsolete. Couldn't help but smile at that.

 

 

I don't see the sly wink anywhere, care to elaborate?

 

If theydon't update Abaddon they might as well admit he's a Squat! I mean he's tiny even compared to Chaos Terminator models now.

[Cheex]

 

 

[Moustache twirling intensifies]

 

But yeah, reading the fluff in Vigilus Defiant - there is a part that specifically says in no uncertain terms that Abaddon will be there to claim Vigilus personally in 80 days. Doesn't mean he'll necessarily get a model update, but...

 

Unrelated, there's also a sly wink and a nod to all the people complaining that OldMarines are obsolete. Couldn't help but smile at that.

 

 

I don't see the sly wink anywhere, care to elaborate?

 

If theydon't update Abaddon they might as well admit he's a Squat! I mean he's tiny even compared to Chaos Terminator models now.

 

 

The page that describes Marneus's "Rubicon Primaris" process is pretty much a direct response to criticism that OldMarines are (or will be) obsolete.

[Doom Herald]

It is worth noting that Haarken's ability allows re-rolls not just of one which also apply to himself. Also, I see people saying Chaos doesn't have enough Ld debuffs, but in Heretic Astartes armies alone (without forge world) we have: Terror Tactics (-1 to -3 Ld), Raptors (-1), Spawn (-1), Icon of Despair (-1), Bligtbringers (-1), Muataliths (-1 to -3), and now Haarken (-1) coming to a potential -11 Ld. Again, this is before non Astartes chaos units or Forge World units. Further, powers like Treason of Tzeentch utilised by a Thousand Sons Prince synergise with all of this, as does Cacaphonic Choir from the Slaanesh discipline. Just to name a few other Ld penalties chaos can get, a Renegade Atropos can get up to -3 Ld on its own with a relic, the Forge World keeper of secrets is similar, you have Vulgrar and the Hullbreakers, Be'lakor, butcher cannons, and more.

[Panzer]

People don't say Chaos doesn't have enough LD debuffs. People say that debuffing LD is rather pointless currently.

[Doom Herald]

There are a lot of units that ignore morale, but that is what Cacaphonic Choir and Treason of Tzeentch can be used for.

 

Of course, Ld debuffs aren't the only weapon that would be used even in an army focused on it.

[Kraken]

It is worth noting that Haarken's ability allows re-rolls not just of one which also apply to himself.

The issue is that it's a reroll for melee only. And Raptors are crap at melee.

[Closet Skeleton]

Raptors are crap at killing stuff in melee but they're also now cheap enough to make large squads not entirely implausible and if you want to use warptime to tag ranged threats then its Raptors or Bikes. Technically that's Warptime being amazing and enemy firepower being that much of a threat but its worth thinking about.

 

We also have VotLW and Prescience so how good a unit is doesn't matter that much. Khorne Berserkers make all other assault units look worthless in terms of killing power but there's more to the game that that.

[Kraken]

Raptors are crap at killing stuff in melee but they're also now cheap enough to make large squads not entirely implausible and if you want to use warptime to tag ranged threats then its Raptors or Bikes. Technically that's Warptime being amazing and enemy firepower being that much of a threat but its worth thinking about.

 

We also have VotLW and Prescience so how good a unit is doesn't matter that much. Khorne Berserkers make all other assault units look worthless in terms of killing power but there's more to the game that that.

Once again, even in that far-fetched situation, you are better off with a standard Chaos Lord with Jump Pack.

Sure you are only rerolling the 1s, but you are also rerolling for shooting where the Raptors are much more efficient (also allows to supercharge).

[Tokugawa]

If you could successfully put Prescience, Warptime and Votlw on 1 same unit, which unit won't become "powerful"?

 

Is it so hard to admit some poor-designed unit is weak?

[Cheex]

I must admit that my earlier enthusiasm for Haarkon has waned a little. If his aura was just the same as a normal Chaos Lord's, but worked on RAPTORS and WARP TALONS rather than <LEGION>, I'd be happy. 

 

At least it's still a cool model to base your own Chaos Lord around. Quick head swap and a second lightning claw, and you're pretty much golden.

[Doom Herald]

It should be considered that by allowing re-rolls in general, not just of 1, you can attempt re-rolls to trigger DttFE. Slaaneshi Raptors with Icon trigger it on a 5+, with Prescience it will trigger on a natural roll of 4+. His own would trigger on a natural 5+ with Prescience as well. It may not be ideal for some armies, but against IMPERIUM it can be much more effective.

 

Also, consider that Diabolic Strength would boost strength which would modify both his ranged and melee attacks. That spear is now S7. Follow it up with 6 S6 Lightning claw attacks which get re-rolls to all hits and to failed wounds. Before saves, you have a pretty reliable 7-9 wounds on the charge. More if you're fighting IMPERIUM and then follow it up with the Raptors.

[Cryptix]

I'm fine with admitting Raptors are weak, I just don't think we should change Haarkon to be something he's not when we can give Raptors +1 attack and actually have them be useful in melee as well.

[Panzer]

I think if HaarkEn would turn Raptors into a decent melee unit then nobody would have a problem with him buffing their melee output.
However a re-roll for to-hit rolls is simply not enough considering Marines already hit on a 3+ and already get such a re-roll aura for 1s (aka half of their missed hits) from a regular Lord.

[Closet Skeleton]

If you could successfully put Prescience, Warptime and Votlw on 1 same unit, which unit won't become "powerful"?

 

Is it so hard to admit some poor-designed unit is weak?

 

...

 

That seems to be completely missing the point. Sure three buffs make anything good, the important thing is what can each unit do with those buffs. Warptime on a 12" or 14" move unit is a completely different spell compared to on a 6" unit so if you're taking a fast unit then its the speed that matters, their ability to kill stuff is irrelevant.

 

 

Once again, even in that far-fetched situation, you are better off with a standard Chaos Lord with Jump Pack.

Sure you are only rerolling the 1s, but you are also rerolling for shooting where the Raptors are much more efficient (also allows to supercharge).

 

Its not a 'far fetched situation', its a tactic. Is being able to have 50 firewarriors around their various buff characters 'far fetched'?

 

I agree that a regular Lord is better than Haarken. Being able to benefit from Prescience in two phases is one of the advantages non-Obliterators/Havoks have.

[Ghorgul]

It should be considered that by allowing re-rolls in general, not just of 1, you can attempt re-rolls to trigger DttFE. Slaaneshi Raptors with Icon trigger it on a 5+, with Prescience it will trigger on a natural roll of 4+. His own would trigger on a natural 5+ with Prescience as well. It may not be ideal for some armies, but against IMPERIUM it can be much more effective.

 

Also, consider that Diabolic Strength would boost strength which would modify both his ranged and melee attacks. That spear is now S7. Follow it up with 6 S6 Lightning claw attacks which get re-rolls to all hits and to failed wounds. Before saves, you have a pretty reliable 7-9 wounds on the charge. More if you're fighting IMPERIUM and then follow it up with the Raptors.

 

Yeah, I guess if you go full 15 Slaanesh Night Lords Raptors with Icon of Excess and also buff them with Delightful Agonies you could do ok with Haarken buffing them. Activate 'In Midnight Clad' on them and you have 15 wound unit with -1 to hit and 5+++. The amount of hits is obnoxious with Haarken buffing and the Slaanesh Icon, but because Raptors are only S 4 and only champion can buy specialised melee weapons (seriously these Raptor special weapon restrictions are just ridiculous!) these only really work well against T3 low save chaff.

Do note that with above combo one would be burning 1 CP for NL stratagem every turn and then later 1 CP for VotLW in melee.

 

I don't know, this really only works against cheap low T low save units, anything more tough and the number of inflicted damage quickly becomes unimpactful and Haarken himself needs Diabolic Strength to be able to hurt high T units efficiently.

 

So naah from me, I'll continue utilising small MSU Raptors as cheap melta/plasma delivery and general bullet sponges.

 

This combo would be much better if Raptors had base attack characteristic of 2, even if this meant 1 higher point cost, like Chosen cost now +1 pts compared to normal CSM but have +1 A and far better equipment options.

They should really FaQ that if whole Heretic Astartes Detachment has no Chaos Mark then Chosen could be taken as Troops, similarly how Codex 3.5 worked.

[Kraken]

 

If you could successfully put Prescience, Warptime and Votlw on 1 same unit, which unit won't become "powerful"?

 

Is it so hard to admit some poor-designed unit is weak?

 

...

 

That seems to be completely missing the point. Sure three buffs make anything good, the important thing is what can each unit do with those buffs. Warptime on a 12" or 14" move unit is a completely different spell compared to on a 6" unit so if you're taking a fast unit then its the speed that matters, their ability to kill stuff is irrelevant.

 

 

Once again, even in that far-fetched situation, you are better off with a standard Chaos Lord with Jump Pack.

Sure you are only rerolling the 1s, but you are also rerolling for shooting where the Raptors are much more efficient (also allows to supercharge).

 

Its not a 'far fetched situation', its a tactic. Is being able to have 50 firewarriors around their various buff characters 'far fetched'?

 

I agree that a regular Lord is better than Haarken. Being able to benefit from Prescience in two phases is one of the advantages non-Obliterators/Havoks have.

 

What I mean by far-fetched is that you are putting a lot of resources to make a the Raptors go from terrible to merely mediocre in melee.

Those resources could be used on another unit much more efficiently and even with the Raptors you'd get much better results with a vanilla Chaos Lord and buffing their ranged combat instead.

You are making a lot of effort to make a bad buff works and the end result will be underwhelming.

 

If you want to do the math, compare Haarken + Raptors with Prescience, VOTLW and Warptime against a Jump Lord + Raptors with plasma with Prescience, VOTLW and Endless Cacophony.

[Doom Herald]

Yeah, I guess if you go full 15 Slaanesh Night Lords Raptors with Icon of Excess and also buff them with Delightful Agonies you could do ok with Haarken buffing them. Activate 'In Midnight Clad' on them and you have 15 wound unit with -1 to hit and 5+++. The amount of hits is obnoxious with Haarken buffing and the Slaanesh Icon, but because Raptors are only S 4 and only champion can buy specialised melee weapons (seriously these Raptor special weapon restrictions are just ridiculous!) these only really work well against T3 low save chaff.

Do note that with above combo one would be burning 1 CP for NL stratagem every turn and then later 1 CP for VotLW in melee.

 

I don't know, this really only works against cheap low T low save units, anything more tough and the number of inflicted damage quickly becomes unimpactful and Haarken himself needs Diabolic Strength to be able to hurt high T units efficiently.

 

So naah from me, I'll continue utilising small MSU Raptors as cheap melta/plasma delivery and general bullet sponges.

 

This combo would be much better if Raptors had base attack characteristic of 2, even if this meant 1 higher point cost, like Chosen cost now +1 pts compared to normal CSM but have +1 A and far better equipment options.

They should really FaQ that if whole Heretic Astartes Detachment has no Chaos Mark then Chosen could be taken as Troops, similarly how Codex 3.5 worked.

VotLW will effectively buff a unit of Raptors to S5 vs T4 or T5, S6 vs T6, S7 vs T7 or T8. With VotLW alone you are wounding targets up to T7 with a 4+ and T8+ on a 5+. With chain swords, they are really at 2 attacks, if you buff them with Prescience and Slaanesh Icon they will on average generate 1 additional attack before Haarken's re-roll effect. At 15 strong, you are looking at 46 effectively S5+ attacks.

 

Alternatively, you could use World Eaters dettachment Raptors which already get 3 attacks on the charge. Using prescience on them, they now on average will generate 4 attacks after DttFE, before Haarken's re-roll. With VotLW, at 15 strong, you are now looking at 61 S5+ attacks.

 

If you are worried about them surviving overwatch, charge a Rhino into the unit first. Although, I find overwatch is generally ineffective unless a flamer style weapon is used.

 

Alternatively to using a full strength Raptor squad, you could use multiple smaller squads for better melee weapons. This does mean only 1 unit per turn can use VotLW and prescience though, but it does mean more attacks at higher AP.

[Doom Herald]

What I mean by far-fetched is that you are putting a lot of resources to make a the Raptors go from terrible to merely mediocre in melee.

Those resources could be used on another unit much more efficiently and even with the Raptors you'd get much better results with a vanilla Chaos Lord and buffing their ranged combat instead.

You are making a lot of effort to make a bad buff works and the end result will be underwhelming.

 

If you want to do the math, compare Haarken + Raptors with Prescience, VOTLW and Warptime against a Jump Lord + Raptors with plasma with Prescience, VOTLW and Endless Cacophony.

You do realise you are comparing a 1CP tactic and a 3CP tactic right?

[DominikB]

 

Yeah, I guess if you go full 15 Slaanesh Night Lords Raptors with Icon of Excess and also buff them with Delightful Agonies you could do ok with Haarken buffing them. Activate 'In Midnight Clad' on them and you have 15 wound unit with -1 to hit and 5+++. The amount of hits is obnoxious with Haarken buffing and the Slaanesh Icon, but because Raptors are only S 4 and only champion can buy specialised melee weapons (seriously these Raptor special weapon restrictions are just ridiculous!) these only really work well against T3 low save chaff.

Do note that with above combo one would be burning 1 CP for NL stratagem every turn and then later 1 CP for VotLW in melee.

 

I don't know, this really only works against cheap low T low save units, anything more tough and the number of inflicted damage quickly becomes unimpactful and Haarken himself needs Diabolic Strength to be able to hurt high T units efficiently.

 

So naah from me, I'll continue utilising small MSU Raptors as cheap melta/plasma delivery and general bullet sponges.

 

This combo would be much better if Raptors had base attack characteristic of 2, even if this meant 1 higher point cost, like Chosen cost now +1 pts compared to normal CSM but have +1 A and far better equipment options.

They should really FaQ that if whole Heretic Astartes Detachment has no Chaos Mark then Chosen could be taken as Troops, similarly how Codex 3.5 worked.

VotLW will effectively buff a unit of Raptors to S5 vs T4 or T5, S6 vs T6, S7 vs T7 or T8. With VotLW alone you are wounding targets up to T7 with a 4+ and T8+ on a 5+. With chain swords, they are really at 2 attacks, if you buff them with Prescience and Slaanesh Icon they will on average generate 1 additional attack before Haarken's re-roll effect. At 15 strong, you are looking at 46 effectively S5+ attacks.

 

Alternatively, you could use World Eaters dettachment Raptors which already get 3 attacks on the charge. Using prescience on them, they now on average will generate 4 attacks after DttFE, before Haarken's re-roll. With VotLW, at 15 strong, you are now looking at 61 S5+ attacks.

 

If you are worried about them surviving overwatch, charge a Rhino into the unit first. Although, I find overwatch is generally ineffective unless a flamer style weapon is used.

 

Alternatively to using a full strength Raptor squad, you could use multiple smaller squads for better melee weapons. This does mean only 1 unit per turn can use VotLW and prescience though, but it does mean more attacks at higher AP.

At that stage why wouldn’t I just take Berserkers, yes they cost more but are so so so much better in combat

[Doom Herald]

 

 

Yeah, I guess if you go full 15 Slaanesh Night Lords Raptors with Icon of Excess and also buff them with Delightful Agonies you could do ok with Haarken buffing them. Activate 'In Midnight Clad' on them and you have 15 wound unit with -1 to hit and 5+++. The amount of hits is obnoxious with Haarken buffing and the Slaanesh Icon, but because Raptors are only S 4 and only champion can buy specialised melee weapons (seriously these Raptor special weapon restrictions are just ridiculous!) these only really work well against T3 low save chaff.

Do note that with above combo one would be burning 1 CP for NL stratagem every turn and then later 1 CP for VotLW in melee.

 

I don't know, this really only works against cheap low T low save units, anything more tough and the number of inflicted damage quickly becomes unimpactful and Haarken himself needs Diabolic Strength to be able to hurt high T units efficiently.

 

So naah from me, I'll continue utilising small MSU Raptors as cheap melta/plasma delivery and general bullet sponges.

 

This combo would be much better if Raptors had base attack characteristic of 2, even if this meant 1 higher point cost, like Chosen cost now +1 pts compared to normal CSM but have +1 A and far better equipment options.

They should really FaQ that if whole Heretic Astartes Detachment has no Chaos Mark then Chosen could be taken as Troops, similarly how Codex 3.5 worked.

VotLW will effectively buff a unit of Raptors to S5 vs T4 or T5, S6 vs T6, S7 vs T7 or T8. With VotLW alone you are wounding targets up to T7 with a 4+ and T8+ on a 5+. With chain swords, they are really at 2 attacks, if you buff them with Prescience and Slaanesh Icon they will on average generate 1 additional attack before Haarken's re-roll effect. At 15 strong, you are looking at 46 effectively S5+ attacks.

 

Alternatively, you could use World Eaters dettachment Raptors which already get 3 attacks on the charge. Using prescience on them, they now on average will generate 4 attacks after DttFE, before Haarken's re-roll. With VotLW, at 15 strong, you are now looking at 61 S5+ attacks.

 

If you are worried about them surviving overwatch, charge a Rhino into the unit first. Although, I find overwatch is generally ineffective unless a flamer style weapon is used.

 

Alternatively to using a full strength Raptor squad, you could use multiple smaller squads for better melee weapons. This does mean only 1 unit per turn can use VotLW and prescience though, but it does mean more attacks at higher AP.

At that stage why wouldn’t I just take Berserkers, yes they cost more but are so so so much better in combat

You very well could, but Berzerkers are slower. For that matter you could take both in a World Eaters dettachment and use the Berzerkers as troops to generate CP as well. The Raptors will hit the targets first though.

 

Keep in mind that those 61 attacks the World Eaters Raptors generate is the average. They can generate up to 92. (2)×(3x14+4)

If you choose to use the Khorne Strategem (expensive I know) they can generate an average of 122 up to 184. All this for 4CP, which is much more comparable to using the 3CP for Plasma Raptors with VotLW and Endless Cacophony. Even if you don't use VotLW or Prescience, you are still looking at an average of 106 up to 184, now for the same CP as VotLW + Cacophony.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Okay so a couple of points to add to this conversation regarding Haarken and Raptors. 

 

Haarken is 115. A chaos lord with duel light claws is 105. This is, of course, tossing away his gun. If you added a "plasma pistol" (a rough equivalent statistically to the helspear but with 0 chance of self-harm) which would cost 5 points bringing him to 110. So your effectively paying 5 points for Haarken but trading the Melee (apostle style) re-roll aura for the RR1 aura. along with Haarkens other abilities which have some corner-case uses. (weak hq's, LD debuff across a huge bubble when applicable) 

If you plan on playing pure black legion (like I do) we really don't care too much about the Rr1 aura being nearby for some units. "let the galaxy burn" is great for that far-ranging raptor unit with guns. I use it consistently and its a cheap strategem. 

 

When you compare raptors to Berzerkers its not really a fair comparison. Zerkers are quite possibly the best melee unit in all of 8th 40k and are the gold standard. Raptors are slightly cheaper (2ppm) and don't need a transport to get where they need to be. Zerkers require a rhino to stand any chance of making contact so that's the rough equivalent of 5 additional raptors on the table compared to a rhino.

 

The easiest fix for raptors is a world eaters detachment obviously as it gives the straight +1 attack which helps their low-ish base number of attacks.  Khorne mark with icon for re-roll charging, as well as using the 3 point (expensive) strategem for "swing again" for the big units can also have applications when needed. A squad leader with either duel claws or fist. They will do fine against most armies. They won't bring home the bacon at a tournament but against a majority of lists on most tables they will do just fine. And they aren't cripplingly expensive anymore given that my 2k list includes plenty of good things aside from 25 raptors + Haarken. (5 with plasma gun triple loadout, 10 with plasma pistols/fist sarge, 10 with plasma pistols/light claw sarge) 

Tl;DR they are fine. Need some help, but are fine. Haarken will work for most people when applied. 

[Doom Herald]

Let's say VotLW is used on 15 WE Raptors.

Running the numbers, that's an average of about 59 hits. Re-rolling all misses has about the same total average hits as re-rolling non DttFE generators and then re-rolling all misses from DttFE. 59 with about 66% wound rate on T4 puts you at about an average 40 succesful wounds with about 13 on average getting through power armor. This is still more than the 12 max that 3 Plasma guns can do. Keep in mind that most models have 1 wound, so the second wound from charged plasma is lost on 1 wound models. Also, this is assuming WE Raptor Champion has just a chainsword.

 

Looking at T5 models, we get a 50% average wound rate. About 30 successful wounds, assuming a 2+ save on such models we get about 5 unsaved wounds on average. So yes, against tougher units with higher saves Plasma Raptors are better. Against most units though, the WE Raptors in melee with Haarken will on average out-perform the Max output of shooting Plasma Raptors with a Lord. In both cases, however, the POTENTIAL damage output for WE Raptors is higher.

[DominikB]

 

 

 

Yeah, I guess if you go full 15 Slaanesh Night Lords Raptors with Icon of Excess and also buff them with Delightful Agonies you could do ok with Haarken buffing them. Activate 'In Midnight Clad' on them and you have 15 wound unit with -1 to hit and 5+++. The amount of hits is obnoxious with Haarken buffing and the Slaanesh Icon, but because Raptors are only S 4 and only champion can buy specialised melee weapons (seriously these Raptor special weapon restrictions are just ridiculous!) these only really work well against T3 low save chaff.

Do note that with above combo one would be burning 1 CP for NL stratagem every turn and then later 1 CP for VotLW in melee.

I don't know, this really only works against cheap low T low save units, anything more tough and the number of inflicted damage quickly becomes unimpactful and Haarken himself needs Diabolic Strength to be able to hurt high T units efficiently.

So naah from me, I'll continue utilising small MSU Raptors as cheap melta/plasma delivery and general bullet sponges.

This combo would be much better if Raptors had base attack characteristic of 2, even if this meant 1 higher point cost, like Chosen cost now +1 pts compared to normal CSM but have +1 A and far better equipment options.

They should really FaQ that if whole Heretic Astartes Detachment has no Chaos Mark then Chosen could be taken as Troops, similarly how Codex 3.5 worked.

VotLW will effectively buff a unit of Raptors to S5 vs T4 or T5, S6 vs T6, S7 vs T7 or T8. With VotLW alone you are wounding targets up to T7 with a 4+ and T8+ on a 5+. With chain swords, they are really at 2 attacks, if you buff them with Prescience and Slaanesh Icon they will on average generate 1 additional attack before Haarken's re-roll effect. At 15 strong, you are looking at 46 effectively S5+ attacks.

Alternatively, you could use World Eaters dettachment Raptors which already get 3 attacks on the charge. Using prescience on them, they now on average will generate 4 attacks after DttFE, before Haarken's re-roll. With VotLW, at 15 strong, you are now looking at 61 S5+ attacks.

If you are worried about them surviving overwatch, charge a Rhino into the unit first. Although, I find overwatch is generally ineffective unless a flamer style weapon is used.

Alternatively to using a full strength Raptor squad, you could use multiple smaller squads for better melee weapons. This does mean only 1 unit per turn can use VotLW and prescience though, but it does mean more attacks at higher AP.

At that stage why wouldn’t I just take Berserkers, yes they cost more but are so so so much better in combat

You very well could, but Berzerkers are slower. For that matter you could take both in a World Eaters dettachment and use the Berzerkers as troops to generate CP as well. The Raptors will hit the targets first though.

Keep in mind that those 61 attacks the World Eaters Raptors generate is the average. They can generate up to 92. (2)×(3x14+4)

If you choose to use the Khorne Strategem (expensive I know) they can generate an average of 122 up to 184. All this for 4CP, which is much more comparable to using the 3CP for Plasma Raptors with VotLW and Endless Cacophony. Even if you don't use VotLW or Prescience, you are still looking at an average of 106 up to 184, now for the same CP as VotLW + Cacophony.

I appreciate that, but you’re spending a lot to make a meh unit good. Where you could spend the same to make a good unit excellent. I agree raptors are great as a distracting shooty unit.

 

On the speed issue rhinos can be taken keeping them safe and giving you a rhino on the board as well.

[Panzer]

Also to put things into perspective, Raptors with VotLW and Haarken is basically the same as Blood Angels Assault Marines and a JP Chaplain. Nobody plays that combo because it sucks. Neither Assault Marines nor Raptors are melee units and any amount of buffing you invest in them would be better used on a proper melee unit so it can actually do the job right.

[dice4thedicegod]

Right.

 

Raptors with chainswords look fantastic. But that is nowhere near optimal gamewise.