Vigilus Defiant & Chaos

[Sonoftherubric21]

"Optimal" doesn't really matter in a vast majority of scenarios. Raptors will do fine. 

 

The only other "proper" melee unit that chaos can go to is berserkers or bust by the communities metrics. That is basically the only truly good option if 99% of the chaos codex sucks as most people seem to think.  

 

A rhino with zerkers in it (with no HQ support) is 253 assuming a fist on champion. The rhino is *REQUIRED* for that unit to function. And they do, to be fair. 

 

Unit of 15 raptors (with fist, and trip plasma pistol, and icon) is equivocal (254). Ill gladly take that comparison. having a unit that ignores terrain on movement and can feasibly engage turn one is valuable in of itself. It can definitely work, and work well. My list with 25 raptors will be getting some long range support to make up for what the raptors cant do (kill tanks and walkers) but against infantry? Raptors will work fine. 

 

As said before the incredibly easy fix for the unit is "World eaters raptors" which fixes the unit just fine. 3 swings each + VOTLW and Harrken makes the unit plenty grindy and fairly dangerous to anything lacking a 2+ save. In my case im going to play around with a bunch of raptor builds for my black legion and see what I can come up with using 25 raptors as the basis of the list.  Haarken is plenty cheap and IMHO solid for his cost. 

[Panzer]

Honestly, nothing is stopping you from playing something like that. However Raptors weren't worth it before CA18 and Vigilus1 and basically nothing changed for them except for a having a charater with JP that allows them to re-roll 2s as well. I seriously doubt that's all that was needed to fix Raptors since that's a really minor buff. They are still the same unit as before in regards to melee so if they were a bad melee unit before they still are now.

[Mekhitar]

Ultimately what unit “works” depends entirely on where you are taking it. I bring lists to league all the time that I wouldn’t put anywhere near a competition I wanted to win, for example. It doesn’t mean they are useless or unfun, it just has everything to do with how you play, who and what you face, and what the expectations are.

 

I took 3 squads of zerks in rhinos to a local tournament last weekend, and I would consider that unsporting if I brought it to Friday night casuals.

 

I’d love to bring Haarken and a bunch of raptors to Friday night. It would be fun and fluffy and I’d do just fine. But they wouldn’t go in my tournament list.

 

Some units really are better than others, but they aren’t “that much” better that the other guys are straight up unplayable. My land raiders and csm squads and possessed and forgefiends still see the table. Just only a certain kind of table. Raptors will too.

 

Vindicators, now - that’s a different story!

 

Raptors may yet redeem themselves if they get a cool formation in Vig II - and I bet we will find something fun for them there. We just don’t have it yet.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Ultimately what unit “works” depends entirely on where you are taking it. I bring lists to league all the time that I wouldn’t put anywhere near a competition I wanted to win, for example. It doesn’t mean they are useless or unfun, it just has everything to do with how you play, who and what you face, and what the expectations are.

 

I took 3 squads of zerks in rhinos to a local tournament last weekend, and I would consider that unsporting if I brought it to Friday night casuals.

 

I’d love to bring Haarken and a bunch of raptors to Friday night. It would be fun and fluffy and I’d do just fine. But they wouldn’t go in my tournament list.

 

Some units really are better than others, but they aren’t “that much” better that the other guys are straight up unplayable. My land raiders and csm squads and possessed and forgefiends still see the table. Just only a certain kind of table. Raptors will too.

 

Vindicators, now - that’s a different story!

 

Raptors may yet redeem themselves if they get a cool formation in Vig II - and I bet we will find something fun for them there. We just don’t have it yet.

 

Ya know, that is fair.... I play almost exclusively in Semi-competitive and casual metas. So that probably colors my perceptions. A couple of my close friends also play Khorne Zerkers.....*ALOT* so I am used to them and know how to deal with them and how they are taken. 

 

I agree that Vigilus 2 will bring us something for raptors. I can't see why they bother having haarken with the "raptor" keyword if that was not the eventual intent. 

 

 

Honestly, nothing is stopping you from playing something like that. However Raptors weren't worth it before CA18 and Vigilus1 and basically nothing changed for them except for a having a charater with JP that allows them to re-roll 2s as well. I seriously doubt that's all that was needed to fix Raptors since that's a really minor buff. They are still the same unit as before in regards to melee so if they were a bad melee unit before they still are now.

 

Well yes and no, 2 point drop PPM and all of their gun options (And sarges melee options FWIW) all dropping in points is substantial. Haarken has the LD aura bubble and the character attack bonus. There is definitely potential.

 

Though I get the 2 extra things he does are corner-case bonuses and won't be utilized every game. As well as some....head-scratching design conventions from GW proper. 

[Kraken]

 

What I mean by far-fetched is that you are putting a lot of resources to make a the Raptors go from terrible to merely mediocre in melee.

Those resources could be used on another unit much more efficiently and even with the Raptors you'd get much better results with a vanilla Chaos Lord and buffing their ranged combat instead.

You are making a lot of effort to make a bad buff works and the end result will be underwhelming.

 

If you want to do the math, compare Haarken + Raptors with Prescience, VOTLW and Warptime against a Jump Lord + Raptors with plasma with Prescience, VOTLW and Endless Cacophony.

You do realise you are comparing a 1CP tactic and a 3CP tactic right?

 

You are right, for some reason I was thinking of EC as a psyker power.

My bad.

But I still don't think the math looks brilliant for the melee raptors.

 

 

Let's say VotLW is used on 15 WE Raptors.

Running the numbers, that's an average of about 59 hits. Re-rolling all misses has about the same total average hits as re-rolling non DttFE generators and then re-rolling all misses from DttFE. 59 with about 66% wound rate on T4 puts you at about an average 40 succesful wounds with about 13 on average getting through power armor. This is still more than the 12 max that 3 Plasma guns can do. Keep in mind that most models have 1 wound, so the second wound from charged plasma is lost on 1 wound models. Also, this is assuming WE Raptor Champion has just a chainsword.

 

Looking at T5 models, we get a 50% average wound rate. About 30 successful wounds, assuming a 2+ save on such models we get about 5 unsaved wounds on average. So yes, against tougher units with higher saves Plasma Raptors are better. Against most units though, the WE Raptors in melee with Haarken will on average out-perform the Max output of shooting Plasma Raptors with a Lord. In both cases, however, the POTENTIAL damage output for WE Raptors is higher.

But you are comparing 15 Melee Raptors to 5 Raptors worth of plasma.

[Doom Herald]

You give numbers showing how combat effective they can be and people want to ignore it and comment on previous posts instead. Berzerkers are the nastiest infantry in Close Combat. If Berzerkers are the only "propper" melee unit, seriously don't use any other models for melee. With Haarken, VotLW, and Prescience, Raptors are more than solid melee. Plus, heres the main point, they are fast attack. They will get there quick and they can make use of terrain without being hindered. By all means, if you would rather have Berzerkers slog across the board or ride in a Rhino, do so. The other thing to keep in mind is, no one is going to worry about your Haarken led Raptors until they start reaping models because everyone is sold on the idea that they are worthless in melee. A potential of almost 200 wounds, but they are still useless?

 

I already have 2 Slaaneshi plasma Raptor units, but I will be adding a 15 man WE squad as well.

[Doom Herald]

 

 

 

What I mean by far-fetched is that you are putting a lot of resources to make a the Raptors go from terrible to merely mediocre in melee.

Those resources could be used on another unit much more efficiently and even with the Raptors you'd get much better results with a vanilla Chaos Lord and buffing their ranged combat instead.

You are making a lot of effort to make a bad buff works and the end result will be underwhelming.

 

If you want to do the math, compare Haarken + Raptors with Prescience, VOTLW and Warptime against a Jump Lord + Raptors with plasma with Prescience, VOTLW and Endless Cacophony.

You do realise you are comparing a 1CP tactic and a 3CP tactic right?

You are right, for some reason I was thinking of EC as a psyker power.

My bad.

But I still don't think the math looks brilliant for the melee raptors.

 

Let's say VotLW is used on 15 WE Raptors.

Running the numbers, that's an average of about 59 hits. Re-rolling all misses has about the same total average hits as re-rolling non DttFE generators and then re-rolling all misses from DttFE. 59 with about 66% wound rate on T4 puts you at about an average 40 succesful wounds with about 13 on average getting through power armor. This is still more than the 12 max that 3 Plasma guns can do. Keep in mind that most models have 1 wound, so the second wound from charged plasma is lost on 1 wound models. Also, this is assuming WE Raptor Champion has just a chainsword.

 

Looking at T5 models, we get a 50% average wound rate. About 30 successful wounds, assuming a 2+ save on such models we get about 5 unsaved wounds on average. So yes, against tougher units with higher saves Plasma Raptors are better. Against most units though, the WE Raptors in melee with Haarken will on average out-perform the Max output of shooting Plasma Raptors with a Lord. In both cases, however, the POTENTIAL damage output for WE Raptors is higher.

But you are comparing 15 Melee Raptors to 5 Raptors worth of plasma.

Fair point on the last, but remember that the second wound from the plasma will be lost on models with 1 wound. So, comparing 2 plasma raptor squads, you are still only looking at a max of 12 casualties on 1 wound models vs 13 on average. This is not taking into account the bolt pistols, since both type of raptor units will have them, though the 15 WEs will have more even after Endless Cacophony.

 

Against tougher units with more wounds, plasma Raptors are more reliable and I will concede should be considered suoerior, but against single wound models, it's different. Again I would like to remind you that this is before you modify the champion's wargear.

[DominikB]

You give numbers showing how combat effective they can be and people want to ignore it and comment on previous posts instead. Berzerkers are the nastiest infantry in Close Combat. If Berzerkers are the only "propper" melee unit, seriously don't use any other models for melee. With Haarken, VotLW, and Prescience, Raptors are more than solid melee. Plus, heres the main point, they are fast attack. They will get there quick and they can make use of terrain without being hindered. By all means, if you would rather have Berzerkers slog across the board or ride in a Rhino, do so. The other thing to keep in mind is, no one is going to worry about your Haarken led Raptors until they start reaping models because everyone is sold on the idea that they are worthless in melee. A potential of almost 200 wounds, but they are still useless?

I already have 2 Slaaneshi plasma Raptor units, but I will be adding a 15 man WE squad as well.

I agree they can be made to be good, but cost isn’t just points it’s also what you give up to make them good. You’re giving up using vets on something else, using prescience on a different unit etc. Also don’t forget the rhino itself has its uses.

 

But would I be willing to try 15 raptor squads? Sure but not with Harkon as I’d need a BL detachment in my non BL LIST

[Ghorgul]

I did some calculations and WE Raptors boosted by Haarken can do some serious damage to low T targets. They don't scale well against T8 because they start at S 4, unlike Berserkers with Chainaxes. They can do brutal damage if one unloads a lot of CP on them. However the basic problem is durability and getting the charge off after deep strike. They really can't take shooting and the combo-wombo efficiency drops like a stone after they start taking casualties.

 

However I feel like most multifunctional compromise with Haarken would be Emperor's Children Raptors with Plasmas/Meltas. They can do quite good damage against T3 targets with VotLW + Excess of Violence and if need come the Double-Tap from Endless Cacophony is really useful against high T8 targets.

 

Hopefully Vigilus II brings us some Raptor formations. Curiously enough both Haarken's and Raptor units Deep Strike ability is named 'Raptor Strike' so there might be some buff to this through specialist detachments.

[Doom Herald]

I would not suggest deepstriking the WE raptors with Haarken, rather i would start them on the board and move them utilizing terrain for cover before charging. I do agree though that large Slaaneshi Raptor units would be a good middle for versatility. With the icon plus prescience you are still looking at a 50% average DttFE. Particularly EC for the strategem.

 

I must say though, I like the idea of quickly wiping out entire conscript units before the core of my army gets to the fight. I don't believe that Raptors are going to be the heart of my army, but they will be useful for a good first strike.

 

I'm going to play with them for now anyway, as I do expect Vigilus II to give something special to Raptors and I want to know them inside and out. I believe the point reduction in CA might have been a gentle nudge to push Chaos players that direction preemptively for what is to come. I think I will try 1 unit of max strength WE Raptors and 2 Slaaneshi units of atleast 10 for support. I just have to work out the details of dettachment set up.

[Panzer]

Instead of EC I'd just go with Alpha Legion Slaanesh Raptors. EC gives you barely anything, all the good stuff comes from them being Slaanesh. And Alpha Legion is self explaining.

[Ghorgul]

So guys, how are those Haarken and Raptor combos working out for you?
 

Did you see the latest FAQ, out today?

Haarken Worldclaimer, Abilities, Lord of the Raptors Change to read:
‘You can re-roll hit rolls for attacks made with melee weapons used by friendly Black Legion Raptor units within 6" of this model.’

 

Good stuff.

[ChazSexington]

So guys, how are those Haarken and Raptor combos working out for you?

 

Did you see the latest FAQ, out today?

Haarken Worldclaimer, Abilities, Lord of the Raptors Change to read:

‘You can re-roll hit rolls for attacks made with melee weapons used by friendly Black Legion Raptor units within 6" of this model.’

 

Good stuff.

 

Hah, so he's already been nerfed. 

 

Imperials really need their training wheels to avoid them spitting out their dummies ;p

[Iron_Within]

We'll it was only a matter of time with all those sweet sweet multi legion raptor hordes being buffed so hard. I mean word bearer raptors were just so dam broken with him....

[Kraken]

Amazing, they managed to make his worthless buff even more bloody useless.

[Ghorgul]

Amazing, they managed to make his worthless buff even more bloody useless.

I like to think they proactively nerfed insanely OP WE Raptor hordes buffed by Haarken, nice to see GW to react OP combos before they manifest on competitive tables and ruin game for everyone.

 

And above is sarcasm, in case I need to state it.

[dice4thedicegod]

CSM players: You can't get a more worthless buff than boosting raptor melee, not shooting, while offering nothing to warp talons.

GW: hold my beer. ..

[Cheex]

Cross-Legion buffing was the only thing he really had going for him, especially since that was specifically brought up on the WHC site as a selling point. What a shame.

[DominikB]

Don’t get why he wasn’t re-roll 1s for black legion and then re-roll melee for raptors and talons...he doesn’t even seem like a particularly useful beatstick :/

[Marshal Loss]

Extremely amusing that they nerfed Haarken after specifically touting this ability when they were promoting his model on Warhammer Community:

 

 

 

What’s more, this ability applies to all Raptors, not just those of the Black Legion, so he makes for a useful ally if you favour using them.

[Kraken]

GW doesn't care about Haarken, he is merely a puppet to introduce the big Black Legion landing in 50 days.

They purposely set him up to fail. Even his lance is nothing but a gimmick to make teaser arts.

 

[ChazSexington]

 

Extremely amusing that they nerfed Haarken after specifically touting this ability when they were promoting his model on Warhammer Community:

 

 

 

What’s more, this ability applies to all Raptors, not just those of the Black Legion, so he makes for a useful ally if you favour using them.

 

 

Let's get the full quote! :D

 

[RolandTHTG]

That's some blowback. 

They just reversed the errata. 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/15/a-lord-of-raptors-he-is-returned/

[Wayniac]

Unfortunately they didn't change anything else, so he's still hot garbage just the people who bought him don't feel like they got cheated.

[dice4thedicegod]

Better than nothing. At least they listened.