"In great armour I shall clad them..." - OldMarines Endure?

[Stofficus]

Hello brothers & sisters,

 

Like many of you, I have been left somewhat cold by the handling of the fluff and implementation of Primaris - and as an owner of a substantial 30k army left without cross-compatibility, I have been motivated by both taste and practicality to wanting to maintain my OldMarine army into 8th edition. 

 

The question I wish to pose to you fine masters of the post-human, how exactly is this done, and more specifically, which OldMarine units don't simply endure, but excel? 

 

The new CA dropped the cost on a number of specialist marine units on the loyal & traitor side, so I understand a definitive answer may remain hard to determine, but allow me to offer my experiences thus far as one sample study: 

 

I ended up settling on the C:CSM codex for repurposing my legion (in spite of its loyalist bent in 30k...) making the assumption that Chaos Primaris were somewhat unlikely, as one thing the primaris launch does accomplish is further separate traitor & loyalist armies (which is a good thing at the end of the day, same for the Deathguard release, which I'm a big fan of), and have had a fairly diverse sample to test my mettle against throughout 8th, from deeply unkind Alaitoc Eldar & Knight parties to the most casual of armies. 

 

For C:CSM, here is my take on OldMarines: 

Traitor Marines - absolute trash. Lack morale re-rolls and many of the available buffs of loyalist tactical marines (which are also pretty bad). They lose out in math-hammer against nearly everything, and aside from a giant horde surrounding Abaddon (which is merely bad, rather than "please don't hurt me"), I'd argue they have no utility. 

 

Chosen - Decent, but potential points sink. carbon copy Company Veterans from the loyalist side, but with a few missing bits of wargear (stormshields, thunder hammers, etc). Extremely versatile unit in terms of loadouts, likely to see a lot more use with the points drops in Chapter Approved. Can be a proper multi-role unit with special weapons & melee weapons, but end up very expensive single wound, 3+ save models, so as sexy an idea as plasma gun + power fist might sound, caution is advised. 

 

Havocs - Fairly flexible heavy support unit. lacking the loyalist signum & cherub, but able to rock specials, not just heavy weapons, they're a solid addition to any list or to fill Heavy Support choices - Chosen may out-do them now as special-weapon carriers, however, as for only 1 pt more you get 2 extra attacks (chainsword + base) and 1 better leadership. 

Raptors - Mobile, flexible ranged unit, terrible melee unit. Unlike most things, Raptors are objectively better than their loyalist versions! Able to choose any special weapon at 2 per unit, plus a matching combi on the Sgt, combined with recent points drops makes these guys attractive deep strike units or highly mobile shooting units, using Fly & 12'' move. Have a -1 Ld aura, but that's a niche thing at best. 

Warp Talons - Just don't even think about it. Chaos Vanguard Veterans, just objectively terrible with only 1 attack base and even when their base price is cheaper than naked traitor marines, paying for two lightning claws ends up with them being awful value. If you absolutely have to, run them as World Eaters for the extra attack to be marginally less awful. 

Noise Marines - This silence is displeasing to Slaanesh, things will get loud now! The sleeper champion of old-school power armour, in my opinion. 19ppm units with veteran statlines, assault 3 24'' bolters which ignore cover, can take 2 pseudo-missile launcher per 10 with either assault D6 S4 Ap-1 or D3 S8 Ap-2 D3, both ignoring cover for cheaper than a missile launcher! Oh, and they also get to shoot/fight whenever a model dies. Just for fun, the Sgt can take a S5 Ap-2 flamer he can use in addition to all other wargear. Did I mention they also use "Endless Cacophony" because the dubstep never, ever stops. They're not cheap, but they outperform everything I've seen due the combo of mobility (assault weapons across the board), surprising range & volume of fire, and powerful buffs available. Whether its Knights or Guardsmen, these guys can do work. 

Khorne Berserkers - When you have to chop everything, accept no substitute - double-fighting angry space marines with a high volume of attacks, which can gain, for a mere 1 pt, a S+1 Ap-1 weapon, and syngerize extremely well with minimal buffs and two of the legion traits (advance and charge of +1 atk on the charge). Delivery can be a bit of a pain, as their threat range is quite limited, but as they are not prohibitively expensive, they can afford spare bodies or points on a transport. Anyone worth their salt will kill these guys before they charge, however. 

Plague Marines - They really, really dislike dying. Enjoying some recent points drops - their offensive power is only marginally better than regular marines, and only then with specific unique wargear to them, they are, however, disgustingly resilient. T5, a 5+++ base, but they don't do all that much aside from irritate your enemies attempts to kill them unless you're Death Guard proper and get more bonuses to stack on top of them. 

Rubric Marines - Never seen them? There's a reason. The weakest cult marine, by virtue of having somewhat schizophrenic rules, and the 1ksons codex having a much better troop - the tzaangors. Their vulnerable to the kinds of weapons found on elite units, but their high AP bolters want to target those same units, so they're hard to get good utility out of. 

Overall, only regular troop marines & warp talons suck for CSM - which is a distinct problem for non-cult legions, as CP generation without either using garbage troops, or cultists, is impossible. For the god-aligned legions, however, they can run some respectable OldMarine armies which can, in my opinion, perform quite well - Noise Marines & Khorne Berserkers in particular provide a troop choice with a clear role, and performs that well within the cost required to field them. 

Now, I have long considered dabbling with Deathwatch to run my "Legion Counts-As," but at the end of the day I don't have practical experience fielding loyalist marine units at present, so I ask you of the frater, what works and doesn't of the classic lineup, or how have you made them work?

NB: I would strongly advise against turning this into a Primaris bash, or "tacticals are the worst thing ever" rant, we all know the discussion points on those, and were I one of our Adeptus Moderati, I'd have a mighty itchy melta trigger finger. 

[TheTrans]

Nice run down mate! 

Is a shame we still need to pay points for trophy racks over loyalist termies ;). 

[Escaflowne_Z]

I would place Blood Angel Sternguard veterans as good/excellent.  Good wargear options, but you don't even need them.  The Sternguard stratagem plus the +1 to wound in melee with a veteran's statline.  Solid. 

 

Blood Angel Vanguard Veterans appear to be big winners after CA, but I find them to still be solid at best in 8th edition.  Blood Angel strategems circumvent some of the problems melee units have in 8th. 

[Panzer]

@whichever mod moved this. Still wrong subforum. It's about Chaos Marines, not loyalists. :D

[Stofficus]

@whichever mod moved this. Still wrong subforum. It's about Chaos Marines, not loyalists.

 

I originally had it under Amicus, because it's sort of everything - Old Marines don't fit into an exact forum niche, just my experience is mostly with CSM to get the conversation going. 

 

In regards to the Blood Angels, I honestly haven't seen much of them aside from smashcaptain & friends, but then then it's apparently tournament season, so everyone locally is rocking Knights, smash captains and the loyal 32. Having "Veterans of the Long War" always on for melee does lend some interesting options with the points drops, and I'd be quite curious to see what kind of assault combos people could whip up. 

[ChazSexington]

Noise Marines and Khorne Berzerkers are the kings of power armour, with potentially Chosen and PMs having a place now. Havocs aren't great, but they're marginally cheaper through wargear now. Raptors miiiiiiiiight just be worth MSUing for plasma. Warp Talons, CSMs, and Rubrics are trash.

I am wondering why you want to port a Legion force wholesale into the 41st millennium? While most of my spikey Alpha Legion boiis are now a mix of Headhunters, MKIV, MKV, CSM, and Raptor/Warp Talon kits with a bit of third party thrown in, none of them are pure 30k.

[Stofficus]

Noise Marines and Khorne Berzerkers are the kings of power armour, with potentially Chosen and PMs having a place now. Havocs aren't great, but they're marginally cheaper through wargear now. Raptors miiiiiiiiight just be worth MSUing for plasma. Warp Talons, CSMs, and Rubrics are trash.

I am wondering why you want to port a Legion force wholesale into the 41st millennium? While most of my spikey Alpha Legion boiis are now a mix of Headhunters, MKIV, MKV, CSM, and Raptor/Warp Talon kits with a bit of third party thrown in, none of them are pure 30k.

 

Because I already had a loyalist 30k army, and quite liked the fluff and aesthetic of the loyalist elements of traitor legions - and I retain the possibly foolhardy hope that 30k may eventually come over to 8th so I can go back to using the Legion list proper, which remains the most fun I've had with a power armoured army yet. 

 

As for plasma raptors, they're something I'm eager to try out - only IG Stormtroopers can offer the same degree of CP-free deep-striking special weapon delivery, and they die to a stiff breeze, whereas raptors can survive some small arms fire, and have the mobility to be properly annoying to the enemy should they survive. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, they are the only fly unit with good mobility that can deliver a respectable amount of firepower and deep-strike for free. Most fly units are melee, or lack deep-strike. Warp Spiders are the closest equivalent I can think of. 

[Panzer]

 

 In fact, if I'm not mistaken, they are the only fly unit with good mobility that can deliver a respectable amount of firepower and deep-strike for free. Most fly units are melee, or lack deep-strike. Warp Spiders are the closest equivalent I can think of. 

 

Vanguard Veterans with Plasma pistols and Inceptors beg to differ. ^^

Also T'au Crisis Suits (Commanders included) and T'au Vespid ("only" Assault 2 S5 AP-2 D1 tho)

[Stofficus]

 

 

 In fact, if I'm not mistaken, they are the only fly unit with good mobility that can deliver a respectable amount of firepower and deep-strike for free. Most fly units are melee, or lack deep-strike. Warp Spiders are the closest equivalent I can think of. 

 

Vanguard Veterans with Plasma pistols and Inceptors beg to differ. ^^

Also T'au Crisis Suits (Commanders included) and T'au Vespid ("only" Assault 2 S5 AP-2 D1 tho)

 

 

VV w/ plasma pistols are a neat idea, but they are a functional melee unit, unlike Raptors. Inceptors are totally valid, forgot about those guys. 

 

Crisis suits have shorter movement, and I honestly haven't seen Vespid since playing against a guy who liked lists made of oddball units.

 

So there is a small cohort of shooty fly units, so then the question is efficiency - Crisis suits have struggled with being a bit too expensive for a while now, and can't overcharge their plasma, Vespid look pretty fragile for their price. Only the PA side, I've only seen Inceptors used once (and they met the business end of a Leviathan...) so I can't speak to their performance, but VV w/ plasma pistols could be a fun little spoiler unit - especially if Blood Angels for charging some chaff and still doing respectable damage without needing power weapons per se. 

 

 

[Panzer]

 

 

 

 In fact, if I'm not mistaken, they are the only fly unit with good mobility that can deliver a respectable amount of firepower and deep-strike for free. Most fly units are melee, or lack deep-strike. Warp Spiders are the closest equivalent I can think of. 

 

Vanguard Veterans with Plasma pistols and Inceptors beg to differ. ^^

Also T'au Crisis Suits (Commanders included) and T'au Vespid ("only" Assault 2 S5 AP-2 D1 tho)

 

 

VV w/ plasma pistols are a neat idea, but they are a functional melee unit, unlike Raptors. Inceptors are totally valid, forgot about those guys. 

 

Crisis suits have shorter movement, and I honestly haven't seen Vespid since playing against a guy who liked lists made of oddball units.

 

So there is a small cohort of shooty fly units, so then the question is efficiency - Crisis suits have struggled with being a bit too expensive for a while now, and can't overcharge their plasma, Vespid look pretty fragile for their price. Only the PA side, I've only seen Inceptors used once (and they met the business end of a Leviathan...) so I can't speak to their performance, but VV w/ plasma pistols could be a fun little spoiler unit - especially if Blood Angels for charging some chaff and still doing respectable damage without needing power weapons per se. 

 

 

 

 

Don't get confused by the unit type. Vanguard Veterans with Plasma pistols are much more a shooty unit than Plasma Raptors. Each model will have two Plasma shots at 12" just like if they had regular Plasma, excpet that every model in the unit can have it and as additional bonus they theoretically could shoot them in melee as well if they ever get stuck for a round.

Crisis have less movement but they still have M8 and FLY so they are still quite mobile. They also have lots more damage output than Plasma Raptors so that should equal things out as well.

 

I'm just saying that there are more mobile shooty units that can deep strike than you were thinking, not that any of them are better than the other. ;)

 

But to address your concerns in detail:

Crisis became a LOT cheaper with CA and their Plasma rifles as well so they are an attractive choice again.

Vespids are rarely seen because they get no support from the Codex in form of faction traits and Stratagems. Their durability is fine for their points tho. They also have quite old models which didn't age very well.

Inceptors damage output is monstrous, especially with Plasma. Meeting the business end of a Leviathan is no shame since any PA unit wouldn't live to tell the tale afterwards either unless they have lots of Storm Shields and roll well.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I cannot disagree more with the point on Rubrics. (at least within the context of the Thousand Sons codex) 

 

I play them quite a lot and have had success with them consistently. Its what you get with a model that is almost immune to small arm fire and has guns that can plug even T7 or below tanks off the table.  (T8 is problematic lol) 

 

Rubrics IMHO are one of the only power armored units that actually works well in 8th. 

[Trevak Dal]

Crisis suits are Killa kans with fly, +2" of movement greater weapon options and are have less combat options.

 

I'm salty for having 30 of them. Well I learned my lesson to never have more than 3 of a unit ever again.

[Azekai]

Rubrics are middling at best because they only excel at killing other power armor, something that is in ready supply this edition. Any mook with a plasma gun can do that.

Crisis suits are Killa kans with fly, +2" of movement greater weapon options and are have less combat options.

I'm salty for having 30 of them. Well I learned my lesson to never have more than 3 of a unit ever again.

That's what you get for playing dirty xenos

[Tokugawa]

8th is and will still be an anti-Powerarmor edition.

 

There are also some decent PA unit choice(Devs with cherub, Shield vanguard vets, DWatch dakka machine, Zerkers,etc). But most lists of "faithful" Powerarmor lovers are sticked at the bottom level of the 8th food chains.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Rubrics are middling at best because they only excel at killing other power armor, something that is in ready supply this edition. Any mook with a plasma gun can do that.

 

 

From experience I just disagree with the assessment. The point of a Bolter with natural AP 2 and easy access to both wounding and accuracy buffs is dangerous to anything that has a save of any kind including negating the effect of cover on most units. 

 

As I said before they also put out substantial threat on vehicles. Anything T7 or below that I have come across can be shredded (or at at least heavily damaged) from Inferno Bolter fire. I have done it on numerous occasions. I get the middling returns against something like Guard or Orks where you just can't deal with the numbers but thats what the rest of the list is for   

[Closet Skeleton]

I haven't used Rubrics but agree that this isn't 7th ed anymore, -2 AP is very different to AP3. Rubrics don't excel at fighting vehicles but with VotLW they can totally put the pain on t7 if that's the available target for them.

 

 

 

 In fact, if I'm not mistaken, they are the only fly unit with good mobility that can deliver a respectable amount of firepower and deep-strike for free. Most fly units are melee, or lack deep-strike. Warp Spiders are the closest equivalent I can think of. 

 

Vanguard Veterans with Plasma pistols and Inceptors beg to differ. ^^

Also T'au Crisis Suits (Commanders included) and T'au Vespid ("only" Assault 2 S5 AP-2 D1 tho)

 

 

Swooping Hawks are alright. Blood Angels assault squads are literally identical to Raptors apart from the worse sergeant options.

[Panzer]

Crisis suits are Killa kans with fly, +2" of movement greater weapon options and are have less combat options.

 

I'm salty for having 30 of them. Well I learned my lesson to never have more than 3 of a unit ever again.

Well you can still play 3x9 and have 3 left to use as Commanders. :P

Also Crisis aren't even that bad anymore thanks to CA18.

 

 

 

 

 In fact, if I'm not mistaken, they are the only fly unit with good mobility that can deliver a respectable amount of firepower and deep-strike for free. Most fly units are melee, or lack deep-strike. Warp Spiders are the closest equivalent I can think of. 

 

Vanguard Veterans with Plasma pistols and Inceptors beg to differ. ^^

Also T'au Crisis Suits (Commanders included) and T'au Vespid ("only" Assault 2 S5 AP-2 D1 tho)

 

 

Swooping Hawks are alright. Blood Angels assault squads are literally identical to Raptors apart from the worse sergeant options.

I didn't even mention Assault squads because nobody uses them. Vanguard Veterans are better than Assault Squads in every regard. I also didn't mention any specific chapter. Blood Angels Assault Marines are in fact better than Raptors in melee since they get the same bonus as Raptors + VotLW and melee rarely lasts more than one turn without any charges anyway. ;)

[Trevak Dal]

Squads that big are very unwieldy and susceptible to moral losses. But they would smash just about anything when they drop, but that's a lot off the board for my liking.

 

I wonder if there will be scenarios where the purple prose for deepstrike will come in? Like if there is zone mortalis, you couldn't use anything besides teleportarium deepstrike etc?

 

The place I'm looking to play plays at 1500 points too. I get it...but feels bad man.

 

Why vanilla assault marines don't get "patched in" to have access to all specials is beyond me.

 

I've pushed the shift in player mindset away from marines being super soldiers until their tabletop performance is more like Custodates, because I believe that mentality is what has people think "oh, my tactical squad can take this on the tits and come back and mudhole these guys" and assault with them or whatever, and when that doesn't play out like they want it to like in the fluff, they get the Feel Bads.