So happy that Chapter Approved 2018, finally cleared this up

[antique_nova]

This is not a discussion of the rules, but I just want to say that I'm kinda tired of so many people misinterpreting the rules of casting warptime onto a unit of Tzaangors or any other unit arriving via Dark Matter Crystal and I don't blame them. Well partly.

 

I have never had a problem with doing this, before it's always been clearly stated to me that it is possible as DMC units are never stated as being in reserve or reinforcements and that reserves are always units that do not deploy on the table in the deployment phase. The biggest problem here is that there has NEVER been any wording to link reinforcements and reserves together, but now there is!

 

So, if you ever have trouble getting your point across of interpreting the rules for this then just read the three points below:

 

I've highlighted the most important parts in red

 

Source: Thousand Son's codex - Page 99

 

[RELIC] Dark Matter Crystal: Once per battle, at the end of your Movement phase, you can select the bearer or a friendly THOUSAND SONS INFANTRY unit within 12" of him. Remove that unit from the battlefield and immediately set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" from any enemy models. This does not count as Falling Back if the unit was within 1" of any enemy models.

 

My Point: Reinforcements are never mentioned here.

 

Source: BIG FAQ 2 - 2018 - Page 5

 

Tactical Reserves: Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.

 

My Point: Reinforcements are normally mentioned as not deployed, before the game starts.

 

Source: Chapter Approved 2018 - Page 31

 

Reserves - Reserves are forces which are not directly present at the start of battle, but are available as reinforcements. If a mission uses Reserves, it will detail which units in your army start the game in Reserve – these units are not deployed with the rest of your army. The mission will usually state when the units placed in Reserve arrive on the battlefield – this is typically at the end of a particular Movement phase. If the mission does not specify when units arrive, roll for each unit at the end of your second Movement phase (and at the end of each of your Movement phases thereafter) – this is called a Reserve roll. On a 3+, the unit being rolled for arrives from Reserve. Note that if a unit placed into Reserve is embarked within a TRANSPORT, they will arrive when their transport does, not separately (if rolling, make a single roll for the transport and the units embarked in it).

 

My Point: Reserves are reinforcements and they are only units that have not been set up before the start of the battle.

 

Case closed. Finally.

[Panzer]

I didn't know that was ever an argument lol

[BluejayJunior]

To play devil's advocate,

 

Q: Can the Auspex Scan Stratagem be used to shoot an enemy unit that is removed from the battlefield and then set up again, for example, when using a teleport homer? A: Yes.

 

Auspex scan is used when a arrives from reserve. But this FAQ states that it also applies to units that are picked up and then set back down, because they are treated as having arrived from reserve. In all other aspects, any units that are removed from the battlefield and placed in a new location count as arriving from reserve. Therefore, they cannot move for any reason. 

 

The passage that you point to in Chapter Approved is talking about a specific rule for certain missions. Nothing about it is applicable for this situation. I don't see anything from this that convinces yours is the correct ruling.

 

If you are correct, though, this does mean i could take a Jumppack Librarian, use Upon Wings of Fire to move him up the board, then use Wings of Sanguinius, to move him again. 

[Marshlands]

You could under this interpretation.

 

It's really just another RAW interpretation vs possible RAI

[Sonoftherubric21]

I think most would agree with this interpretation until GW directly states to the contrary (which they have yet to do) 

[MillionsSons]

Good that the CA explains further whatca reserve is.

For me Big FAQ2 was already clear that if something starts the vattle on the table then its not a reinforcement and DMC can be used on them with Warptime.

 

All the reviews I had seen on youtube from 40k influencers were clear on this, and in local tournaments there was also no questions raised.

[Raven1]

I didn't know that was ever an argument lol

I think as usually most things like this are clear to players except those who try to rules lawyer to their advantage.

[Marshlands]

 

I didn't know that was ever an argument lol

I think as usually most things like this are clear to players except those who try to rules lawyer to their advantage.

I cant remember references but before big faq 2 one of the FAQs said treat it as setting up from reserve, hence should be covered by reserve restrictions. Latest version of that faq question has removed the section of the answer that says treat as reserves hence no specific restriction

 

So now RAW 'nothing says I can't'

[Panzer]

Since this thread seems a bit slow you might want to take a look at the same thread in the Official Rules section ^^

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352311-dark-crystal-matter-dcm-and-warp-time-wt/

[Khalan]

You're confusing rules. Reinforcements and reserves and tacitcal reserves are different things.

 

DMC arriving units count as reinforcements, therefore no Warptime. Any unit setup on the field mid battle counts as such.

[Marshlands]

You're confusing rules. Reinforcements and reserves and tacitcal reserves are different things.

 

DMC arriving units count as reinforcements, therefore no Warptime. Any unit setup on the field mid battle counts as such.

I think the question is why does DMC count as reinforcements. The OPs point was that it doesn't say DMC counts as reinforcements. Do you have a reference?

[Khalan]

Reinforcements are not the same as Tactical Reserves. Tactical Reserves will mostly arrive as Reinforcements, but you can apply the Reinforcements rule without being Tactical Reserves.

The Tzaangors are "set up" on the battlefield mid-turn, which meets all the requirements for reinforcements. As per the reinforcements rule and FAQ, you can't warptime after arriving.

 

Here is a more thorough explanation. Also I am a competitive 1k player, if there was any way I felt I could justify using Warptime after DMC, I would, but the rules are clear.

 

 

[Marshlands]

Well to be honest I don't think the intent is that they can, but that does nothing to convince me it's RAW.

 

The description of reinforcements is somewhat similar but the fact that there was an FAQ saying it did count as reinforcements, and that question has specifically been altered to remove saying they are reinforcements as of big FAQ2 is a much stronger argument...

[Khalan]

Well to be honest I don't think the intent is that they can, but that does nothing to convince me it's RAW.

 

The description of reinforcements is somewhat similar but the fact that there was an FAQ saying it did count as reinforcements, and that question has specifically been altered to remove saying they are reinforcements as of big FAQ2 is a much stronger argument...

 

Thats not an argument at all since a new player or player who hasn't read the faq's wouldnt even know that existed in the past. You can't base your argument on rules that used to exist only on what does. The removal of the specific wording is only knowledge that some people have and can't be used to justify your reasoning since it literally doesn't exist anymore.

[Panzer]

Well to be honest I don't think the intent is that they can, but that does nothing to convince me it's RAW.

 

The description of reinforcements is somewhat similar but the fact that there was an FAQ saying it did count as reinforcements, and that question has specifically been altered to remove saying they are reinforcements as of big FAQ2 is a much stronger argument...

 

Not stronger than the argument that abilities that explicitly work against reinforcements (intercepting shots for example) work against units that get set up without being placed in reserves before.

 

Every unit that is placed as Reserves is also a unit that arrives as Reinforcement, however not every unit that arrives as Reinforcement is also a unit counting as Reserves. The new FAQ OP quoted only talks about Reserves, not about Reinforcements and thus doesn't matter at all for the DMC "problem".

[Marshlands]

 

 

Well to be honest I don't think the intent is that they can, but that does nothing to convince me it's RAW.

 

The description of reinforcements is somewhat similar but the fact that there was an FAQ saying it did count as reinforcements, and that question has specifically been altered to remove saying they are reinforcements as of big FAQ2 is a much stronger argument...

Not stronger than the argument that abilities that explicitly work against reinforcements (intercepting shots for example) work against units that get set up without being placed in reserves before.

 

Every unit that is placed as Reserves is also a unit that arrives as Reinforcement, however not every unit that arrives as Reinforcement is also a unit counting as Reserves. The new FAQ OP quoted only talks about Reserves, not about Reinforcements and thus doesn't matter at all for the DMC "problem".

Sure logically that's airtight, assuming that the intercepting works because the DMC is reinforcements, and not just that intercepting also works against a unit moved by DMC etc for some other reason.

 

I guess that whole reasoning implies there is a logic at work, which most probably isn't the case!

 

Clearly without clarification it's still just gonna be a case of some players arguing 'nothing directly says I can't' vs others perceived RAI

[Khalan]

It only causes that if you willfully read it wrong. It is super clear on what counts as reinforcements in the main rulebook.

[Marshlands]

It only causes that if you willfully read it wrong. It is super clear on what counts as reinforcements in the main rulebook.

It wasn't so clear that it didn't need an FAQ, to clarify that it does count as reinforcements.

 

It clearly got much less clear when gw then changed said faq...

[Heliomanes]

Has there been any new rulings from the ITC or Nova faqs? We tend to play by one of those sets in our local events, so that's ultimately what's going to translate into our regular games.

[Khalan]

Has there been any new rulings from the ITC or Nova faqs? We tend to play by one of those sets in our local events, so that's ultimately what's going to translate into our regular games.

For LVO the head judges said they can't be warpimed.

[Prot]

This just never ends does it?

 

I've watched it go back and forth long enough. The only consistency is people end up taking the argument to a personal level and that's where I have to end it.

 

For the umpteenth time on Dark Matter Crystal, please take it to the rules forum where it can be argued with a larger audience (and probably come to the same inconclusive decision.)

 

I'm sorry there isn't a better way but GW really needs to be much more clear on this mechanism (not just DMC) because it comes up a lot, and is far from having a concrete answer (based on tournaments and the amount of disagreement that happens here.)

 

My advice (I've done this myself) is to take it to GW's 40K facebook page and politely ask there. It's the only way they resolve these issues in my experience.