Combat Squads special rule

[domsto]

Hello everybody

I have once again reread my Space Marine Codex and one Special Rule took my attantion.

Namely "Combat Squads"

Has anybody ever used this?

What is it good for?

I allways find this kinda dumd to be honest

Marines already have problems to fill out detachments so why should i play a 10 Men Squad and split it up into 2 5 Men Squads?

Why don't play just 2x5men and fill 2 Troope slots?

I don't see anybenefit in this rule. Hopefully someone can explain to me why this is a thing.

[9x19 Parabellum]

It's really a carryover from 7th edition, where you could take 10 marines, and stack 2 of them (carrying 1 special and 1 heavy weapon) into the same 5 man unit for more concentrated firepower.  The other squad of 5, without any special/heavy guns, could be left to babysit an objective, or eat overwatch, etc.   It helped in 7th edition because:

 

1. it was the only way to get 2 powerful guns in a 5 man unit (sgts could take combi weapons but they were one-use only back then).

2. because a squad had to all shoot at the same target, it helped maximize efficiency. (Ie, if you had a lascannon and meltagun combat squaded in squad 1a, and 5 boltguns in squad 1b, only 3 boltguns would be wasted from squad 1a against a tank, because squad 1b could shoot against infantry.  But if they were all in the same squad, the 8 boltguns would all have to be wasted on tank if you wanted to shoot at it with your lascannon/meltagun.

 

So, in 8th edition, it's really just an extra rule that was brought along as a legacy of 7th edition, probably because "hey, it can't really hurt, and might help...and there are probably some Marine players expecting it, either tactically or as a means by which they actually painted their forces and want to have the game mechanics reflect their aesthetic choices."

[old git]

Tournaments have a variety of missions over the weekend, all of which have to be played with one army list. If you have a 10 man squad you can keep it at 10 strong in a mission that scores with kill points therefore only losing one unit that is harder to kill. In other missions ie objective scoring missions, two 5 man squads mean you can cover more ground. So with a single 10 man squad you are more flexible between missions. I realise that the rule wasn't intended for tournaments but it does help. Also I think it was intended to represent marine operational flexibility lore wise.

[Panzer]

Unfortunately it's pretty much useless. Kinda like summoning for Chaos. One of the things GW thought would be great in theory but isn't in practice because the game is not played the way they thought it would be played. ^^

[Bryan Blaire]

It’s also a carry over from rules for Space Marines “because it’s always been rules for Space Marines.” I believe you could combat squad as far back as 3rd Edition, if not earlier (not near my old rule books, would have to check later).

[Jacques Corbin]

I used the stratagem once in a game. I had a 10 man Tactical Squad do almost nothing on a backfield objective up until turn 5, then I used the stratagem and broke them up, and 5 of them jumped in a rhino and hauled :cuss to a midfield objective. I had 3 tactical sitting on that objective when turn 7 ended.

 

So, hardly something I do often, but I like having the option at my disposal.

[Panzer]

I used the stratagem once in a game. I had a 10 man Tactical Squad do almost nothing on a backfield objective up until turn 5, then I used the stratagem and broke them up, and 5 of them jumped in a rhino and hauled to a midfield objective. I had 3 tactical sitting on that objective when turn 7 ended.

 

So, hardly something I do often, but I like having the option at my disposal.

 

Well that's the Stratagem, but the talk is about the special rule. ^^

[Emicus]

Less drops

Better value in new formations upgrading 10 then splitting if desired

Less units for kill points if desired.

 

It's just tactical really, since it's done in deployment rather than list building you get a smidge of flexibility

[Lemondish]

Super amazing rule for Deathwatch, but other than situational mission objective purposes, it's kind of useless flavour.

[BluejayJunior]

Useful for tacticals if you want the heavy weapon to sit back and not move, while the special weapon and sgt move up the board. True, you could still accomplish the same thing with 2 separate squads. But if you really wanted to take max squads, you could split them up this way. I see it as more of an on the spot option depending on your opponent rather than something you would focus on while building the list. 

[Jacques Corbin]

I use it mostly for Scouts. 5 start on the board with Concealed Positions, while the other 5 wait off table in a Land Speeder Storm. Turn 3, they move onto the table and advance towards an objective. Good for late game objective grabbing.

[Kallas]

I use it mostly for Scouts. 5 start on the board with Concealed Positions, while the other 5 wait off table in a Land Speeder Storm. Turn 3, they move onto the table and advance towards an objective. Good for late game objective grabbing.

Is there any particular reason you aren't just taking two units of Scouts which can do the exact same thing, for the exact same cost, but also get a bonus Sergeant?

[Jacques Corbin]

Baiting someone with poor manners to ask that very question, just as rudely as you just did.

 

What do I really need another Sergeant for? He does not shoot any better, and +1Ld is not that crucial for a unit of 5 marines. Oh, maybe you are referring to his 2 attacks? Yeah, that makes a ton of difference.

[Kallas]

Baiting someone with poor manners to ask that very question, just as rudely as you just did.

 

What do I really need another Sergeant for? He does not shoot any better, and +1Ld is not that crucial for a unit of 5 marines. Oh, maybe you are referring to his 2 attacks? Yeah, that makes a ton of difference.

That wasn't bait, and it wasn't rude.

 

So, I'll ask it again: is there any reason you're not taking two squads of five which:

• Have more attacks, which isn't necessarily a huge deal, but it's literally free
• Have better Leadership; similarly not a huge deal for MSU, but it's still free
• Fill out detachments better, and that is a big deal because CPs are very valuable
• Have further weapon options (eg, a Scout Sergeant can take weapons unavailable to regular Scouts; eg, a Storm Bolter - so does shoot better for a minimal cost increase) to increase the squad's effectiveness

It may not be much a change, for the most part, but considering it's literally free and you're running them as two five-man squads anyway - what is your reasoning? What advantage to running one ten-man squad, that uses Combat Squads to split into two five-man squads, yield?

 

Genuine question; not rude (you can't make something an attack just because you say it is); looking for an answer as to why you're deliberately running at a disadvantage as a choice as there may have been something I missed, and would actually like to learn (if there is, in fact, a good reason).

[HighMarshalAmp]

Well, it has some use again since there is the rule of 3.

You're likely gonna need it if you're playing an infantry-heavy army, and things like 3 Dev or Hellblaster Squads are less than you'd expect...

 

I like MSU squads and Combat Squadding gives me the option to run 6 of them. 6 Dev Squads with 2 Heavy Weapons each, 6 Hellblaster Squads closing in from different directions, all the wile nearly immune to morale casualties and you can never lose more than 5 guys to heavy fire.

 

Hiding 5 and 5 in cover also is a lot easier than hiding the full 10 out of LOS...

 

But if you're Combat Squadding your troops at the beginning of the game, you're only 2 HQs you've probably got anyway short of a second 5CP, so I agree, that's not the obvious choice. (A point already made by Kallas while I was typing all of this.)

 

 

So, I'll ask it again: is there any reason you're not taking two squads of five which:

• Have more attacks, which isn't necessarily a huge deal, but it's literally free
• Have better Leadership; similarly not a huge deal for MSU, but it's still free
• Fill out detachments better, and that is a big deal because CPs are very valuable
• Have further weapon options (eg, a Scout Sergeant can take weapons unavailable to regular Scouts; eg, a Storm Bolter - so does shoot better for a minimal cost increase) to increase the squad's effectiveness

It may not be much a change, for the most part, but considering it's literally free and you're running them as two five-man squads anyway - what is your reasoning? What advantage to running one ten-man squad, that uses Combat Squads to split into two five-man squads, yield?

 

Staying with the question of Sergeants, a second Sergeant is one more Special Weapon and, in case of Devastators, one more Signum.

Sergeants are good. Sergeants are your friends!

[domsto]

So this rule is basically useless 9,9/10 cases?

Jup that sounds like a propper Marines special Rule

[Jolemai]

It's niche but say you took the maximum amount of Devastator Squads (rule of three) and decided you wanted/needed more board coverage. With ten models, you can make two squads which gives you that.

 

Another advantage to creating two squads is that anything that will kill a ten man squad outright now can only kill half the squad, meaning something else has to kill the other five.

 

Perhaps you have a ten man squad and decide you want to use a Razorback (or in the case of TDA, a Stormraven). If you combat squad you can do that with half leaving the other one elsewhere.

 

Take a bike squad, fold the two specials, combi, Attack Bike into one to make the most of the shooting phase, and blast the other bikes off elsewhere for objectives, etc.

 

Combat Squads is one of those things that (imo) benefits non-Troop choices the most to offer more flexibility. A lot of folk go MSU to maximise Command Points and decrease the number of Deployment drops, but that's not the only way to play the game.

[Panzer]

Baiting someone with poor manners to ask that very question, just as rudely as you just did.

 

What do I really need another Sergeant for? He does not shoot any better, and +1Ld is not that crucial for a unit of 5 marines. Oh, maybe you are referring to his 2 attacks? Yeah, that makes a ton of difference.

 

To be honest, your response was the rude one, not his.

Taking two squads instead of one would help immensely filling detachments so you gain more CP. Something Marines are notoriously bad with unless they take the loyal32.

 

 

About splitting Dev Squads ... you could just as well take more Tacticals instead considering there's no limit on Troop units and Devastators are pretty much just Tacticals without ObSec and a few more special/heavy weapon slots? Not really convinced on this one. Hellblaster on the other hand sounds like a plausible use but I've rarely seen anybody fielding so many Hellblaster yet.

Kinda silly that the best use for a faction wide special rule only exists because of some rule that's not even a real rule since it only exists as suggestion for tournaments.