Warp Travel in the Era of the Great Rift

[Arkangilos]

So another thing to consider of why the BA might not be there but the Ultras might be is because on the Imperium Nihilus side there is no astronomicon, so warp travel is not only more dangerous but also slower and harder. This would mean that anyone on the Terran side would be closer in terms of time to arrival.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

Exactly this AFAIK, travel on the Nihlus side is risky, especially the further you travel, at least until they come up with some sort of McGuffin device to make it easier.

[Arkhanist]

So another thing to consider of why the BA might not be there but the Ultras might be is because on the Imperium Nihilus side there is no astronomicon, so warp travel is not only more dangerous but also slower and harder. This would mean that anyone on the Terran side would be closer in terms of time to arrival.

 

Baal is also quite a bit more to the galactic east, while the Nachmund Gauntlet is to the west, quite near the Eye. The Brazen Claws are on the Nihilus side but much closer, and I believe they are listed as being on Vigilus. The warp storms have calmed somewhat from the formation of the Rift, but long-distance warp travel is much more risky than it was with the Rift largely obscuring the Astronomican in Nihilus so navigators no longer have a fixed point of reference; now all they have are existing maps of stable warp paths (which are probably badly wrong, the Rift formation likely did a number on those) and their ability to see warp currents and shoals etc. It's still possible to travel through the warp but it's much safer to do so in short hops. Travel in the warp without the astronomican would probably like sailing across the ocean to a small island with no stars or clocks or GPS etc, only old charts and estimated speed and currents to try and figure out where you are. And the ocean is full of shark-squid trying to eat your boat.

 

In the BA codex history, post Devastation of Baal, Strike Force Mephiston attempted a risky warp jump and were assumed lost. They appeared a year later at their destination.

 

So I definitely buy that most of the units fighting at Vigilus are from Imperium Sanctus; they've got problems but still have most of the imperial worlds, resources and stable-ish warp travel now the days of blindness have (mostly) ended on that side of the Rift while on the Nihilus side they're just trying to stem the bleeding from all the chaos incursions. Hope we do get a Nihilus campaign later though where BA get some love.

[Marshal Rohr]

The thing about the rift is that if Navigators can see it in the warp it would be more reliable than the Astronomican as a navigational beacon because you can navigate by hand rail the way old non-ocean going vessels could use the coasts to guide themselves across the Mediterranean. So you could feasibly start on one end of the galaxy and just travel parallel to the rift at a safe distance until your navigators and astropatghs detect Vigilus with the warp scrying ability they’ve had in the Lore

[Slasher956]

Galaxies a big place.... so you spend time going downwards (on the map) to the rift, then turn right and follow it (roughly) meaning some times you are a little too close and get the eddies of the warp hit you.  Other times you are 'out of sight of it' and spend a day or more travelling at an angle away from the rift then have to tack back till you find it again, but only after you realised how far off course you've gone.  By the time you eventually reach Vigilus the war is over and its a charred rock / each by the swarm.

 

Even with the Astronomican ships have been known to take years travelling from system to system.

[Canadian_F_H]

The thing about the rift is that if Navigators can see it in the warp it would be more reliable than the Astronomican as a navigational beacon because you can navigate by hand rail the way old non-ocean going vessels could use the coasts to guide themselves across the Mediterranean. So you could feasibly start on one end of the galaxy and just travel parallel to the rift at a safe distance until your navigators and astropatghs detect Vigilus with the warp scrying ability they’ve had in the Lore

That makes a lot of sense. Except when the warp decides to not make sense. But that was a factor before, so I suspect that method would be at least as viable as any time navigators had to work near or try to avoid warp anomalies prior to the rift...

 

So, actually doable most of the time except for the times everything goes horribly wrong because that's the stuff you hear about and effects us as players when it contributes to the narrative.

 

(I'm tired and babbling, but Tldr I agree, and then talked to much. Lol)

[Panzer]

So another thing to consider of why the BA might not be there but the Ultras might be is because on the Imperium Nihilus side there is no astronomicon, so warp travel is not only more dangerous but also slower and harder. This would mean that anyone on the Terran side would be closer in terms of time to arrival.

 

Well the book tells us that Calgar recklessly warp jumped to Vigilus (which means through the warp rift as well) and it almost fried Tigurius brain (he apparently aged a whole lot). Can't get much more dangerous and harder for the Blood Angels I'd say. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Which is exactly how old ships used to travel and the Chinese still managed to show up in Africa and give everyone tons of money just for giggles. The point is it would be reliable not efficient.

[Panzer]

 

The thing about the rift is that if Navigators can see it in the warp it would be more reliable than the Astronomican as a navigational beacon because you can navigate by hand rail the way old non-ocean going vessels could use the coasts to guide themselves across the Mediterranean. So you could feasibly start on one end of the galaxy and just travel parallel to the rift at a safe distance until your navigators and astropatghs detect Vigilus with the warp scrying ability they’ve had in the Lore

That makes a lot of sense. Except when the warp decides to not make sense. But that was a factor before, so I suspect that method would be at least as viable as any time navigators had to work near or try to avoid warp anomalies prior to the rift...

 

So, actually doable most of the time except for the times everything goes horribly wrong because that's the stuff you hear about and effects us as players when it contributes to the narrative.

 

(I'm tired and babbling, but Tldr I agree, and then talked to much. Lol)

 

 

Not to mention that looking at the rift seems to be kinda risky as well if you're this close which would making navigation using the rift itself even harder. ^^

[Canadian_F_H]

Which is congruent with existing fluff about various warp anomalies which I believe were described mostly in the "rogue trader" RPG books. At least that remains consistent.

[Marshal Rohr]

Guys, we can use the Sun to navigate without looking right at it  If you see that big ball of fusion on your right and its the morning, you're facing north. On your left in the morning? South.

 

The rift doesn't need to be needlessly complex, even with its supernatural qualities, it still occupies a physical space, and that can be accounted for. Is it easy? Hell no. Can it be done? Of course. It should be hard to live in the Imperium Nihilus, the same way its hard to live in the post-apocalypse. You can still overcome those obstacles.

[Panzer]

Assuming something like left and right works when using the warp to navigate. I'm not completely dismissing what you're saying but I also think that if GW says that it's not possible or barely possible then there's enough in the fluff to accept that it really isn't possible or barely possible since the warp follows a whole different set of not-logic after all. ^^

The sun blinds you for a short time if looked at directly, you can feel it on your skin and you can use shadows to navigate. The raw warp does a whole lot of other things to you if you try to use it in whatever way. ^^

[Marshal Rohr]

You don't have to navigate like that in the warp. Ships are capable of determining their orientation in the warp via several means per other sources. Just as recently as Titandeath it describes how you can find your position and make a short jump of a few hours without changes in direction to cross huge distances with risk, but not too great a risk. The Chartist captains don't even use Navigators, and have maps of stable jump routes they use for commerce people on the other side of the rift can use.

[Brother Casman]

I've split this discussion from the "Vigilus 80 days" thread so the lore discussion can continue, without derailing the news topic.

[Canadian_F_H]

Good. This is a pretty interesting topic in and of itself. So I'm glad we have the opportunity to pursue it without smothering the vigilus topic. I was holding back a lot in the other thread, so this is going to be good!

[Brother Casman]

Anyway, I'm not sure that the analogy of navigating by coastline lines up that well with using the Great Rift to navigate the Imperium Nihilus. The coastlines are (mostly) stable, and the position of the Sun in the sky is predictable. I'm not sure that the same, or similar, logic would apply to a warp-rift, given it's source in the Immaterium, which is a realm of emotion and soul-stuff, with very little to do with logic. Plus, what does the Great Rift look like, when you've jumped into the Warp? I don't think it would be the same every time.

 

Now, I'll be honest - I would have expected a greater Imperial presence at Vigilus. While a garrison of Blood Angels may not have fit, I would have thought that there would be more of the Adeptus Astartes around the area. This is a critical passage from one side of the galaxy to the other.

[m_r_parker]

A-D-B covers this pretty well in his new novel. Any travel around the Imperium Nhillus is performed through a long series of short jumps through the Warp, making travelling any distance a long and dangerous process. The initial crossing of the Rift is also pretty harrying, with their craft practically broken once it reached the other side and a third of the crew dead from the attempt - very much a one-way affair.

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm glad I was following that same path then. Difficult, not Impossible.

[Sete]

Hey they needed to sell that Calgar mini.

To hell with sense.

 

This said, they are really the furthest away chapter from Vigilus. But hey warp matthemathics ;)

[Brother Casman]

I've been thinking about stellar navigation for most of the day now (it's been quiet), and I'm quite curious about how it works on the ships of the Imperium.

 

Navigation is an important part of shipping, and to get to where you're going, you need to know where you are. If you're hugging a coastline, this can be as simple as "there's the lighthouse on whatever point, and over there is the inlet to whatever bay, which puts us here on our map" - which works for a two dimensional surface like an ocean. To pinpoint our location in space, we'd need three points to orient ourselves. Conveniently, the galaxy does provide a number of stars that can be seen clear across the whole shebang (for the most part), and the Emperor set up a permanent beacon on Terra (the Astronomicon). So, if we have a decent catalog of guide stars, we could probably figure out where we are: "Rigel's here, Vega's there, and Holy Terra is over there, which puts us here on the map." The coming of the Great Rift would throw that into chaos (no pun intended) for sure. Some of your guide stars would be invisible, on the other side of the Rift... I'd be surprised if stellar navigation on the Astronomicon side really is unaffected, especially as you get closer to the Rift proper. I can sort of see things being easier with the Astronomicon than without, but still, the old catalog of guide stars must be a mess by this point. And that's ignoring the whole "jump through the Warp to get to where you're going" part of the trip. The Imperium is in quite the pickle, I think....

[Lord_Caerolion]

There's also the fact that Warp travel doesn't only involve the risks of getting lost and finding your destination correctly. You're essentially operating in the dead of night/heavy fog (no light from the Astronomican), and have literal Cthulhu's swimming around in the ocean around you, just waiting to tear a hole in the hull and devour the souls of your crew.

[Panzer]

There's also the fact that Warp travel doesn't only involve the risks of getting lost and finding your destination correctly. You're essentially operating in the dead of night/heavy fog (no light from the Astronomican), and have literal Cthulhu's swimming around in the ocean around you, just waiting to tear a hole in the hull and devour the souls of your crew.

 

Plus it's a very stormy night and there are riffs hidden everywhere. The warp is far from being calm these days. :P

[Marshal Rohr]

So it sounds like you guys are in the camp that no imperial vessels should be able to travel anywhere and any Imperials on the other side of the rift will only ever fight on the planet they were on when the rift opened up? Because you have to understand that’s not a tenable position and defeats the whole purpose of the rift handwaving everyone fighting everyone. Before the rift it made no sense why the Ultramarines would ever be at Cadia.

[Brother Casman]

No, Marshal Rohr, I think we're largely on the same page - Imperial travel is now harder than it was before, but not impossible. I'm not sure that we've all grasped the ramifications of what GW has done, and I was sort of thinking-through some ideas above.

[toaae]

So there was warp travel before the astronomicon, but it was dangerous and unreliable. I recall the fluff mentioning that multiple small jumps would have to be made, but long hauls weren't exactly reasonable. Given that pre-rift, the Imperium already had an issue with arriving to destinations in time, I'd imagine that is exacerbated post-rift. Also, given the Imperium's vertical, Feudal structure, the bureaucracy of the Imperium Nihilus would probably be broken above a certain level, which would mean communicating and coordinating resources between sectors (or lower down), would be in worse shape, which is more time lost.