Warp Travel in the Era of the Great Rift

[Arkangilos]

I don't think the chaos gods being corrupt because we are corrupt and so wouldn't be corrupt if we weren't holds up.

 

Slaanesh literally only exists because of Excess. Khorne only exists because of anger. Nurgle only exists because of dispair, and Tzeentch only exists because of ambitious schemes. There are not positive aspects to them. The positive aspects people mention *always* go away the deeper one becomes immersed. It's part of the great lie they tell. "We are about honor" says khorne to the honorable warrior. The warrior then begins to give himself to khorne to get strength and favors, and ultimately end up losing all of their honor.

 

Sources all over the place confirm this. The FFG Black Crusade books are a great source for that, too.

[Panzer]

Yeah no I completely disagree with that view and I haven't seen any "confirmation" of what you're saying simply because GW refrains from confirming too much about the true nature of the warp since forever. It's always just teasers and speculations and some facts that might just as well be simply wrongly percieved so aren't actual facts.

 

The reason why you never see anything good coming out of getting involved with the chaos gods is because all you see is how it works in a universe where the chaos gods bad aspects overweight the positive aspects so much. This is Warhammer after all and the chaos gods being no good is a main part of the setting. You can't see examples of something that only exists in an alternative universe (same rules for how things work but different variables).

[Xisor]

The thing about the rift is that if Navigators can see it in the warp it would be more reliable than the Astronomican as a navigational beacon because you can navigate by hand rail the way old non-ocean going vessels could use the coasts to guide themselves across the Mediterranean. So you could feasibly start on one end of the galaxy and just travel parallel to the rift at a safe distance until your navigators and astropatghs detect Vigilus with the warp scrying ability they’ve had in the Lore

That would be very apropos.

 

If the Great Rift wasn't a malevolent horror in a dimension beyond mortal or immortal comprehension.

 

I'd hold most handrails.

 

But not insubstantial and inexplicable ones in the domain beholden to my aeons-old archenemy.

 

Like, I just don't think it would provide the support I expect.

 

Also I've seen the handrail obliterate some of the most expert professionals in my field.

 

But yeah, swings and roundabouts.

 

Hold the damn bannister.

[Marshal Rohr]

I won’t hold a hand rail in NYC, but I know it’s there if I go up and down.

[Arkangilos]

 

The thing about the rift is that if Navigators can see it in the warp it would be more reliable than the Astronomican as a navigational beacon because you can navigate by hand rail the way old non-ocean going vessels could use the coasts to guide themselves across the Mediterranean. So you could feasibly start on one end of the galaxy and just travel parallel to the rift at a safe distance until your navigators and astropatghs detect Vigilus with the warp scrying ability they’ve had in the Lore

That would be very apropos.

 

If the Great Rift wasn't a malevolent horror in a dimension beyond mortal or immortal comprehension.

 

I'd hold most handrails.

 

But not insubstantial and inexplicable ones in the domain beholden to my aeons-old archenemy.

 

Like, I just don't think it would provide the support I expect.

 

Also I've seen the handrail obliterate some of the most expert professionals in my field.

 

But yeah, swings and roundabouts.

 

Hold the damn bannister.

Yeah no one was talking about holding it. It's a figure of speech meaning you can follow it.

 

@sfpanzer, no Black Crusade literally says that. It talks about the reasons people turn to chaos, and how it usually starts off as honor, hope, desperation, or desire. It talks about how they might be fighting for freedom. But it all talks about how it always ends with them forgetting that. And we can just look at the Primarchs, too. Look at how they forgot what they set out to do: free the Imperium from a tyrannical ruler, bring enlightenment, and restore honor. Yet they all descended into corruption and madness.

 

When I get home in a few days I can provide direct quotes, but there is no way in hell you can tell me there are positives to them. It's not supported by anyone or anything in universe other than the people deceiving them.

[Marshal Rohr]

Just to clarify to ‘handrail’ when you do navigation means that you use a geographic feature to orietent your direction. In land nav when don’t wanna expose yourself to traveling down a road or along a river you move a safe distance out and follow from that distance, when you get lost you can turn towards the feature and find it again to reorient.

[b1soul]

@ Reclusiarch Krieg

 

Late to the party...but the current estimate is that the Milky Way contains 100 billion planets of which 40 billion are rather "Earth-like".

 

The Imperium holds a paltry 1 million worlds...so I don't think there's a need to run off to Andromeda at this point.

[Scribe]

I don't think the chaos gods being corrupt because we are corrupt and so wouldn't be corrupt if we weren't holds up.

 

Slaanesh literally only exists because of Excess. Khorne only exists because of anger. Nurgle only exists because of dispair, and Tzeentch only exists because of ambitious schemes. There are not positive aspects to them. The positive aspects people mention *always* go away the deeper one becomes immersed. It's part of the great lie they tell. "We are about honor" says khorne to the honorable warrior. The warrior then begins to give himself to khorne to get strength and favors, and ultimately end up losing all of their honor.

 

Sources all over the place confirm this. The FFG Black Crusade books are a great source for that, too.

This.

 

Liber chaotica confirms this as well. It's how Chaos has always been represented.

[Panzer]

It's always represented like this because that's the universe we have to work with. We can't have it represented any other way without having it not be in the 40k universe. 

Take the set of rules of how the warp works and put it into another universe without so much war and depravity and so on and we would end up with completely different representations.

[Azekai]

This.

 

Liber chaotica confirms this as well. It's how Chaos has always been represented.

Ignoring that Liber Chaotica is a fantasy book, Unreliable narrators are a thing. Liber Chaotica is written by witch hunters and the like. They might know something about chaos but they can only guess at the metaphysical underpinnings of the gods.

 

Also, the fact that ‘Khorne only exists because anger exists’ is false. The concept of ‘perfection’ or ‘hedonism’ and ‘physical gratification’ existed before the advent of Slaanesh, and it took more than just a couple of horny teenagers to bring about the Dark Prince. The birth of Slaanesh required the unprecedented debauchery of the Eldar. The gods are terrible things because we mortals, collectively, are terrible things. They reflect us.

[Scribe]

 

This.

 

Liber chaotica confirms this as well. It's how Chaos has always been represented.

Ignoring that Liber Chaotica is a fantasy book, Unreliable narrators are a thing. Liber Chaotica is written by witch hunters and the like. They might know something about chaos but they can only guess at the metaphysical underpinnings of the gods.

 

 

I assume based on this, that you neither have, nor have read them?

 

 

It's always represented like this because that's the universe we have to work with. We can't have it represented any other way without having it not be in the 40k universe. 

Take the set of rules of how the warp works and put it into another universe without so much war and depravity and so on and we would end up with completely different representations.

 

Would we? 

 

What are the basic underpinnings of the Warp?

 

1. Creatures have 'souls'. Humans, Eldar, Ork.

2. Soul's are returned to the Warp upon Death, and make up the 'matter' of that realm.

3. Like emotions, form 'pools' in the warp, just as other chemicals will form layers in a liquid.

4. The fun part! Those 'pools' given time and enough growth became sentient themselves, and realized how they could make themselves grow.

5. The strongest emotions, resonate the most in both the real space, and the Warp, this further empowers the 'pools'.

6. A feedback loop is generated, where the Gods influence mortals, to grow themselves further, to then influence mortals, to grow themselves further, repeat.

 

Khorne, is Honour. Khorne is also Rage, and in the end, while somewhere there is an eddy in the Warp of Honour, it is also in the 'pool' that is Khorne, that is composed mostly of Rage.

 

Assuming there are 4 'primal' emotions, which the Gods are based on, I dont see why other Universes would not turn out the same way, as far as the Warp goes.

[Panzer]

 

 

This.

 

Liber chaotica confirms this as well. It's how Chaos has always been represented.

Ignoring that Liber Chaotica is a fantasy book, Unreliable narrators are a thing. Liber Chaotica is written by witch hunters and the like. They might know something about chaos but they can only guess at the metaphysical underpinnings of the gods.

 

 

I assume based on this, that you neither have, nor have read them?

 

 

It's always represented like this because that's the universe we have to work with. We can't have it represented any other way without having it not be in the 40k universe. 

Take the set of rules of how the warp works and put it into another universe without so much war and depravity and so on and we would end up with completely different representations.

 

Would we? 

 

What are the basic underpinnings of the Warp?

 

1. Creatures have 'souls'. Humans, Eldar, Ork.

2. Soul's are returned to the Warp upon Death, and make up the 'matter' of that realm.

3. Like emotions, form 'pools' in the warp, just as other chemicals will form layers in a liquid.

4. The fun part! Those 'pools' given time and enough growth became sentient themselves, and realized how they could make themselves grow.

5. The strongest emotions, resonate the most in both the real space, and the Warp, this further empowers the 'pools'.

6. A feedback loop is generated, where the Gods influence mortals, to grow themselves further, to then influence mortals, to grow themselves further, repeat.

 

Khorne, is Honour. Khorne is also Rage, and in the end, while somewhere there is an eddy in the Warp of Honour, it is also in the 'pool' that is Khorne, that is composed mostly of Rage.

 

Assuming there are 4 'primal' emotions, which the Gods are based on, I dont see why other Universes would not turn out the same way, as far as the Warp goes.

 

 

"that is composed mostly of Rage"

This is where your logic is a bit flawed. It's composed mostly of Rage in this universe because of the feedback loop and the overall negativity in the 40k galaxy. In another universe it could be composed mostly of Honour.

[Scribe]

 

 

 

This.

 

Liber chaotica confirms this as well. It's how Chaos has always been represented.

Ignoring that Liber Chaotica is a fantasy book, Unreliable narrators are a thing. Liber Chaotica is written by witch hunters and the like. They might know something about chaos but they can only guess at the metaphysical underpinnings of the gods.

 

 

I assume based on this, that you neither have, nor have read them?

 

 

It's always represented like this because that's the universe we have to work with. We can't have it represented any other way without having it not be in the 40k universe. 

Take the set of rules of how the warp works and put it into another universe without so much war and depravity and so on and we would end up with completely different representations.

 

Would we? 

 

What are the basic underpinnings of the Warp?

 

1. Creatures have 'souls'. Humans, Eldar, Ork.

2. Soul's are returned to the Warp upon Death, and make up the 'matter' of that realm.

3. Like emotions, form 'pools' in the warp, just as other chemicals will form layers in a liquid.

4. The fun part! Those 'pools' given time and enough growth became sentient themselves, and realized how they could make themselves grow.

5. The strongest emotions, resonate the most in both the real space, and the Warp, this further empowers the 'pools'.

6. A feedback loop is generated, where the Gods influence mortals, to grow themselves further, to then influence mortals, to grow themselves further, repeat.

 

Khorne, is Honour. Khorne is also Rage, and in the end, while somewhere there is an eddy in the Warp of Honour, it is also in the 'pool' that is Khorne, that is composed mostly of Rage.

 

Assuming there are 4 'primal' emotions, which the Gods are based on, I dont see why other Universes would not turn out the same way, as far as the Warp goes.

 

 

"that is composed mostly of Rage"

This is where your logic is a bit flawed. It's composed mostly of Rage in this universe because of the feedback loop and the overall negativity in the 40k galaxy. In another universe it could be composed mostly of Honour.

 

 

I disagree, because we start from a blank slate. Its not like as if Universe Existed -> Full of Rage -> Created Khorne.

 

The warp was once calm, we know this based on the lore of both early Humans (create of the Emperor from the Shaman) the War in Heaven between Necron/Old Ones, and that Slaanesh was birthed in the 'current' age.

 

Rage, Lust/Excess/Sensation, Change/Hope, Despair. Freud and Jung.

 

What even is, Honour? You want to tell me that Honour as an emotional resonance, would ever be as universal as Rage? As Anger?

 

No. An infant know's Anger, can feel it, can express it, and they cannot even communicate. Honour? Not a chance.

[Panzer]

That we disagree is obvious. ^^

 

And something like a blank slate doesn't exist. The warp is time less. It doesn't care about the state of the galaxy a few million years ago compared to now. Just like Slaanesh existed before its birth the warp got formed by the emotions and ambitions of beings across all times so even the warp a few million years ago would've been influenced by the events and state of things in the galaxy now or in the future.

[Panzer]

<double post>

[Scribe]

That we disagree is obvious. ^^

 

And something like a blank slate doesn't exist. The warp is time less. It doesn't care about the state of the galaxy a few million years ago compared to now. Just like Slaanesh existed before its birth the warp got formed by the emotions and ambitions of beings across all times so even the warp a few million years ago would've been influenced by the events and state of things in the galaxy now or in the future.

 

Its all well and good to go with the 'timeless' angle, but based on the totality of the mythos, that doesnt hold up. I mean I get it, thats how the modern Warp is explained, but when put up against things that we 'know' took place, its a bit of a plot hole.

[Panzer]

Well it's supposed to be a realm where logic doesn't exist so such things we'd see as 'plot holes' because it doesn't make much sense to us is perfectly fine. You can't logically explain or comprehend that is detached from traditional logic by design after all.

[Scribe]

The Warp, is like that sure. Real Space has rules like Time however, and there is lore which reflects that the warp as is, is not how it always was.

 

Discount or discard it as you will, but they are canon.

[Azekai]

 

 

This.

 

Liber chaotica confirms this as well. It's how Chaos has always been represented.

Ignoring that Liber Chaotica is a fantasy book, Unreliable narrators are a thing. Liber Chaotica is written by witch hunters and the like. They might know something about chaos but they can only guess at the metaphysical underpinnings of the gods.

 

 

I assume based on this, that you neither have, nor have read them?

 

Thirsting gods, your tone is arrogant.

 

I have a copy of the Nurgle Liber. It is written from the perspective of a hospitaler servant of Shallya, a decidedly Fantasy reference point. I stand by what I said.

[Scribe]

Well I'm not going to get mine off the shelf to take pictures of the marines, and the description of other 40k elements.

 

:)

 

Edit: Regardless, it's the same as when people erroneously claim the setting has somehow fundamentally changed in tone, since Gathering Storm. It has not.

 

The Warp, and Chaos, is the same. We have 20+ years of material that paints a picture that is almost uniformly consistent and yet we still have people who say 'I wish one time a Guardsmen would look at an Icon of Chaos and feel nothing' because despite a largely consistent representation over decades, people still either refuse to grasp the reality of what 40K is, or want it to be something that for again, 20+ years, it has not been.

 

So pull out some supporting documents that show my understanding of the warp is wrong, I went into 8th/Dark Imperium lore with an open mind, and found nothing really has changed.

 

Otherwise, we can 'agree to disagree' but I'm quite comfortable in my understanding of 40ks lore at this point.

[Panzer]

We're talking about a hypothetical scenario. A what-if that's based in an entirely different galaxy. There is nothing to challenge your understanding of the 40k lore because the 40k lore is based in only that one galaxy with that one history and that one intend of how things are supposed to be. It's all just speculation that's as likely right as it's as likely wrong but impossible to prove since GW won't ever give us an official explanation to those things. Also consistency is another logical concept that doesn't really exist in the warp so even "time doesn't exist" is a "rule" that isn't always true. ;)

 

Nobody was even talking about the Dark Imperium narrative right now so I'm not sure why you are starting with that one? I went into the new narratives with the same open mind and came to the same conclusion as you that nothing much really changed. Guilliman even had to lie to humanity and claim his initial crusade was a huge success even tho he couldn't even finish it properly just so they would accept the new breed of Marines and him as their leader.

[Arkangilos]

Thing is you can’t take “what if” in this case because it’s literally just making up what you want it to be. We know, based on Lore, Khorne was awakened due to anger, he is Anger manifested.

We know that Nurgle is the literal manifestation of Dispair.

Slaanesh of excess.

Tzeentch of forbidden desire and schemes (not the lustful kind)

 

They only exist because of the state of the universe. There is nothing good about them. If the universe was perfect and the only emotion was love then there wouldn’t be the four Chaos gods of Anger, Despair, Excess, and Schemes. It would be the God of Love. They would simply not exist.

 

Lore PROVES that the closer one gets to the gods in devotion the less “positive” they are. It is literally written that the more one gives himself to Khorne the less honorable he becomes. Heck, it’s literally a phrase chanted all the time, “Khorne cares not from whence the blood comes, only that it comes.” Does that sound like honor to you?

 

Remember, the Primarchs once thought they could retain honor. Angron thought he was liberating the galaxy from a tyrant until he turned, now he exists only to kill.

 

Also the galaxy wasn’t nearly as bad towards the end of the Great Crusade as it is in the 40k so that argument kind of falls apart. The chaos gods specifically WANTED to make it bad.

[Panzer]

Yeah I think I'm going to drop it. We're going in circles now.

[Ishagu]

Khorne might be about honour in Warhammer Fantasy, but in 40k he's only about mindless slaughter. His worlds are literally planets where the weak are butchered over and over again then re-born so the cycle can continue. There's nothing honourable about any of it.

 

There are no positives in the other Chaos Gods either because they take everything to an extreme.

[Lexington]

There are no positives in the other Chaos Gods either because they take everything to an extreme.

Chaos Gods are like mountains or storms or suns - they just are. Concepts like “positive” or “negative” aren’t inherent aspects of the thing, they’re artifacts of our perception.