started DW, don't feel like playing BA anymore

[durdle-durdle]

This is kind of a rant thread I guess, so if that's unacceptable; mods, please remove.

 

     I've been playing blood angels for about three years now, since just before the 7th (6th?) edition codex dropped.  The things that initially pulled me to blood angels were the fast vehicles and mobile assault units.  I loved the baal predator and vindicator, because using one force org chart, i could take a big wall of av 13 stuff.  I also loved assault marines as a troops choice, and the ability to take flamers everywhere, when template weapons were useful.  I loved drop pods and taking a heavy reserve list.  I do also love terminators, though they're fairly unchanged from how they were.  Death company with a reclusiarch (i think was what it was called, later became DC chaplain) was amazingly good.  the special dreadnoughts were also so cool.  The furioso with either blender claws for huge amounts of attacks and the frag cannon template.  The death company dread was also pretty cool, and i loved putting dreads in drop pods.  

     Since then, the baal predator has been moved to heavy support, and further downgraded into an expensive, worse razorback.  vindicators are basically worthless now, and "fast" vehicles don't exist anymore, so my blitzkrieg army is just a normal marine army.  Assault marines are no longer troops (which, i get it, they're codex adherant.  But come on, it was a really cool thing.), flamers are much worse than they used to be, as are drop pods.  While reserves are no longer random, with scatter die going away, dropping in flamers and meltas is basically non existant now.  Death company are now only slightly different vanguard veterans, and worse in many people's opinions.

     The are very few tricks the blood angels still have that I enjoy.  The ability to 3d6 charge a single unit with jump packs when it deep strikes is great, as is the "upon wings of fire" stratagem to redeploy a unit.  The problem with these though is that you can affect a single unit with the 3d6 charge, so you're only able to make 2-3 uses of this in the whole game.  Even then, I've had a ton of failed charges that just blow the game for me.  The other thing they do very well is hero hammer, but that's not a thing i've ever really liked.  While a smash captain is good, it also serves as a crutch that drains command points, while the rest of the army is mostly meat shields while he and (for me,) mephiston do all the work.  I really like sanguinary guard and librarian dreads still, but that's about it.  most of the things I liked have been made much worse.

 

   So, i started proxying my marines as deathwatch, and now I can't find much reason to go back.  Every time i start to build a blood angels list, I cringe at taking normal tactical squads or intercessors.  Scouts are okay, but I don't want to spam them like the internet seems to tell me to.  I keep finding myself wishing I could take a troop choice that does effective things.  Intercessors are okay, but intercessors with SIA are amazingly better.  Tactical marines are ok, at best, but veterans with a bunch of storm bolters that have SIA and storm shields are amazingly better.  It gets even worse when I try to take any kind of specialist units like hellblasters or whatever.  Why would i take a unit of just those, when I can take a unit of intercessor bodies (with that amazing SIA) + 5 hellblasters?  The same thing with terminators.  My issue with them has always been that they don't put out enough wounds with storm bolters, and fists on everyone is expensive.  But with SIA and the option to take power weapons, as well as bodies and a higher rate of heavy weapons, terminators become amazingly better too.

     Not only that, but having reroll 1's to wound on tap as well as +1 to wound nearly whenever I want, on EITHER or BOTH shooting and melee makes them much better.  The fact that I can take usable, effective troops choices and deep strike them into range to murder things with their great guns is great.  The HQ's aren't the power houses that captain slam and mephiston are, but they're still very good, and i'm OK with that.  I'm actually not finding myself struggling for command points either, because i actually want to take the deathwatch troops, and that's most of my army.  It's not as punchy as blood angels, which is a thing i'm kind of struggling with.  I keep wanting to run forward and declare charges, but that's not even that bad.  Marines are still pretty able in combat, especially when you mix in a couple terminators or power weapons (on vets) or a couple aggressors on an intercessor squad.  Literally the only thing I find myself wanting to take is librarian dreadnoughts and sanguinary guard.  Everything else is kinda meh-bad now.

 

    It's kind of heart breaking because I LOVE blood angels, and i love how my models look, and stuff, but I just can't find any reason to put them on the field.  I've been toying with putting a detatchment into an army with a batallion of deathwatch for troops and CP's, but i just keep ending up cutting them out.  I was already building a homebrew chapter of primaris marines, and I think that's going to be most of the army I play from now on, and my blood angels are just going to sit on my shelf for a long time.

 

IDK if any of this is helpful, or it's just me whining, but I felt like posting it.

 

     TL;DR: I find deathwatch to be all around better than blood angels, and can't find any reason to play blood angels any more over deathwatch.

[antique_nova]

If that's how you feel, then wait until you start playing Tzaangors...

 

Come over to the warp! Embrace your nerd side! ^^

 

EDIT: We have milk, blue cheese and biscuits! 

[BrotherAetherick]

I've also moved on from Blood Angels (my first army) to a DW blood angel soup.

 

With the nerf to fly I've since removed the blood angels and have gone DW/Space wolves/Astartes soup. So I feel your frustrations in abandoning your first chapter.

 

With the new 2 point stormshields it's a great time to play DW. Primaris also have their merits with SIA and mixed kill teams. Watchmaster rerolls are awesome.

 

Welcome to the watch.

[durdle-durdle]

If that's how you feel, then wait until you start playing Tzaangors...

 

Come over to the warp! Embrace your nerd side! ^^

Eeeeh, I played chaos marines for a while in 7th with my blood angels. Ended up selling them because I didn’t want to take the time to paint all their super intricate stuff. It’s actually why I started building a primaris army to go with my blood angels. They paint so quickly, and look great too.

[antique_nova]

I don't paint the intricate stuff, I just wash over it. Still I must admit that painting marines is still the fastest way to go.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

My advice is to consider running two battalions... BA and DW. I am running my BA battalion with a Smash Captain, Mephiston the Lord of Death and three scout squads - so much fun !

 

Welcome to our group here. It’s a good crowd for sure.

[Raven1]

You could certainly run 2 detachments. I was going to suggest a fresh coat of paint that is distinctly DW but keeps the BA livery so sort of bits from both. Your slam captains certainly dont have to go anywhere

[anarchistscourge]

I had exactly the same problem when i started playing DW. Used to play crimson fists and now most of them have been converted over to the DW. They just have so much more character and playability than standard marines

[durdle-durdle]

Furthermore, I just realized the veterans can just “take” chainswords and keep bolters. With storm shields being only 2 points, I can live my dream of fielding shield walls with units like:

 

-deathwatch vets

5x with chainswords and storm shields

5x with storm bolters and chain swords.

 

Literally the only thing I miss is 3d6 charging a unit from deep strike, so I think i’ll start adding a vanguard of death company and sanguinary guard. I’m so happy right now.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I love Blood Angels.

[Vel'Cona]

Typically, I encourage folks to play "what they like" rather than "what wins." If you don't enjoy the concept of an army, then no matter how good it is objectively your victories will feel hollow.  It's the same reason I don't play Craftworld Eldar or Tau, since I don't enjoy the core concepts of their faction identity.

 

That's not to say you shouldn't play what you want.  By all means, if DW seems like a better option for the kind of army you want to play and the models you have on hand, then you should go for it.  Just make it clear to your opponents what everything is, as I can personally say it's quite frustrating to play against a proxy-horde and get blindsided when a Power Sword turns out to be a Power Fist or some such nonsense.

[vigitant]

For all that my list has dropped BA for Njall's Rune priest deathstar, BA's still are rather good, and complement DW well.

BA can enable a cheaper battalion with scouts(best scouts in the astartes), and they have some of the best melee AT characters.
Smashcaptain is best in BA and SW.  A libby dread is downright scary with a 12" fly move and character rule.  If there are gallants in your local meta, a libby with might of heroes on it can really help get the charge on a gallant, without fearing death grip as much.

turn 1 beacon shenanigans off a DW jump character can leave you with a BA smash captain, libby dread, DW jump libby, etc, with storm shields and terminator bodies to screen, all about 15-20" up the board.  It's pretty scary.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

My issue with Libby dread is its base number of attacks.

[Lemondish]

My issue with Libby dread is its base number of attacks.

 

I think it more than makes up for it by being a psyker and the character protection. Pricy, so not the most efficient, but he's super fun. 

 

More attacks would make him just stupid effective. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would just take Mephiston over the metal bawx every time - easier to hide and S10 so basically wounding everything on 2+ with Red Thirst kicking in... there is a reason why his points went up .

[vigitant]

I would just take Mephiston over the metal bawx every time - easier to hide and S10 so basically wounding everything on 2+ with Red Thirst kicking in... there is a reason why his points went up .

Yeah, Mephiston has d3 dmg vs libby dreads flat 3.  T7 is pretty useful in some situations.

If your meta has Gallants, take the libby dread every time.  Mephiston gets 1-shotted by gallants.

I think the libby dread is better paired with a Codex or DW libby, as well.  Mephiston with MoH is cool, but going up to T8 on the libby dread is pretty hardcore in a lot of matchups.

 

Also, d3 damage is...  kinda meh for his points.  I'd almost take another BA smashcaptain for the cost.  3++ and a 3 dmg TH.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t think a DW Librarian can buff any BA units. Also a Gallant will one shot a Libby dread just the same so it doesn’t really matter imo tbh .

[Lemondish]

I don’t think a DW Librarian can buff any BA units. Also a Gallant will one shot a Libby dread just the same so it doesn’t really matter imo tbh .

Well why would you let that happen?

 

It's also weird to use that logic. A Gallant could one shot a Gallant, so is the Gallant now rubbish? Things in this game will die.

 

Best make use of them in the right ways before that happens. Libby dread is fun that way.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Can a Libby dread one shot a Gallant reliably on the Charge ? If yes then for sure that’s saying a lot for the entombed.

[shanewatts]

You can use Might of Heroes on BA, the target is Adeptus Astartes keyword, so a DW libby can cast it on a BA model as well.

 

 

Black orange, you know a Libby dread can get more attacks than a Slam Captain? (That also wound on 2s, and hit on 2s vs 3s with slam captain.)

 

Captain 4 + 1 (Death Visions) + d3 (Red Rampage) + 1 (Unleash rage) + 1 (Might of Heroes) = 7+d3 (8-10) x2 for fight again or fight on die

Lib Drd  3 + d3 (Red Rampage) + d3 (Quicken) + 1 (Unleash Rage) + 1 (Might of Heroes)      = 5+2d3 (7-11) x2 for fight on die

 

The Slam captain is more versatile (jump pack relic, 3d6 charge from reserve etc, can take a storm shield) However the Lib dread is slightly more reliable offensively in that it hits on 2s vs 3s with the Slam captain, and less reliable in that the extra attacks have more variance.

 

Do I think the Lib dread is better than a Slam Captain? No, but it does have just as much chance to one shot a gallant as a Slam captain does.

[vigitant]

 Also a Gallant will one shot a Libby dread just the same so it doesn’t really matter imo tbh .

I was specifically referring to the death grip strat.

Against knights, you want to put some wounds on them, then charge and profile them/kill them.

the knight can interrupt and kill 2 characters dead with attacks on one, death grip on the other.

 

a might of heroes libby dread has a decent shot at surviving a profiled knight gallant.  Its not a perfect thing by any stretch, but going from next to no chance to a decent one is good.

 

Ideally, you want a decent shot at killing it on the charge after putting enough wounds with shooting/smites/etc.  its nice to not be :cussed if you roll bad and leave the knight not dead on the first charge activation.  Especially good if you're converging with enough units.  if the feet hitting on 3's or 4's profiled have to target a unit, death grip has to go into characters.  death grip would 1 shot mephiston or slamguinieus.  it probably just wounds libby dread with MoH.

 

There are also a lot of matchups where being able to throw a T8 libby dread on MoH crack into a fight is super good.  Being able to stall out genestealers, orcs, etc. with a libby dread is something slamguinieus/mephiston cant do.

 

I dont think he's a replacement for smash captains.  but mephiston?  absolutely.  flat 3 dmg is just so much better than d3.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Those are all excellent points! However I doubt the Libby would survive a charging Gallant tbh imo .

I am going to experiment with the Libby Dread.

[vigitant]

Those are all excellent points! However I doubt the Libby would survive a charging Gallant tbh imo .

I am going to experiment with the Libby Dread.

 

100% correct.  Though with screen and the libby dread getting 6+12" movement with flying, i dont see the gallant getting the charge easy

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah it is all about the screens then buffing the dread up as much as possible.