Vanguard Veterans after CA

[Zubb]

Beetween cost reduction of the unit itself and the drop of price of Storm Shield, Vanguard might be competetive with other assault units in our Codex. Also Relic Blade option for the Sergeant is now reasonably priced. Have anyone tried them yet? What are your ideas?

 

FYI:

VV 16 -> 14

JPVV 18 -> 17

SS 5 -> 2

RB 21 -> 9

 

I am not sure about the footslogger version, but on Jump Packs you can get a mix of guys with double chainswords, chainswords & 3++ and special weapons & 3++ and a sergeant with the Relic Blade.

[Panzer]

If I weren't playing Primaris the biggest part of my army would consist of sword&board VV, just saying. After CA I wouldn't even feel bad about it. They've become really cheap for what they do. The only issue is that they still easily die against mass shooting since Stormshields don't help against AP0.

[Karhedron]

I see these guys as working really well to compliment Sanguinary Guard. The SG are incredibly durable vs small-arms fire and excel at cutting through elite units with Glaives and Fists all round.

 

VanVets with CS/SS are the opposite. They are durable against heavy weapons and big monsters while being a very cost effective way of cutting through chaff (not quite as good as DC but the 3++ is a BIG deal against a lot of units).

 

So what does this mean in practice? Against horde armies, you can run them alongside the SG to help them avoid getting bogged down. Given that SG often run with buffing characters, the VVs will often be in a position to benefit from some of these buffs too.

 

Against more dangerous units, the VVs can help to tie them down so that the SG do not bear the brunt of the charge. Khornate DPs have a ridiculous number of high-AP, multi-damage attacks which will slaughter SG but which won't bother those VVs too much with Storm shields to hide behind. A charging DP can easily kill 6 SG before they even strike but will only take down 2 VVs with the same rolls on average.

 

Add a few power weapons here and there and you have a unit that is pretty durable and hitty for its points costs that synergise well with our other melee specialists.

[dread05]

I've been wanting to buy a box of VV for more than a year now, but I cant make my mind on how to equip them, and I keep postponing it.

[Karhedron]

I've been wanting to buy a box of VV for more than a year now, but I cant make my mind on how to equip them, and I keep postponing it.

Just personally, I would run a 10-man squad with 4 Storm shields and Chainswords, 5 with BP/CS (cheap bullet catchers for Ap0 attacks) and a Serg with SS and Relic Blade so that they can pose a bit of a threat to tougher targets at a pinch (feel free to substitute with PF or even TH if you prefer).

 

This runs to 189 points and they should be well worth it in terms of durability.

[Riot Earp]

Im considering to take 5 with ss and cs and 5 with thunder hammers in one squad. Meatshields and smathvets ftw.

[Damon Nightman]

I have 10 with hand flamers and chainswords, 10 with a mix of power swords, fists, storm shields, and inferno pistols, and 5 with dual plasma. The dual plasma squad is nasty and got so much cheaper

[Charlo]

Dual plasma seems pretty decent now actually.

 

Intrigued to how they stack up compared to say a RAS with 2 plasma and a combi plas for cost etc.

 

2pt storm shields are totally mental though, I'm genuinely shocked they made that change!

[dread05]

What annoys me with the VV box is that it only has 4 ss (also only 4 pairs of claws). I dont want to build 5 models where 2 of them use the same stormshield, and I cant find any other fitting bit. Do you thing there is way to use a terminator ss? I have the one that's meant to be for a sergeant, but the arm is huge compaired to power armor.

 

 

edit : I guess I can get a deathwatch SS and a deathwatch shoulder pad and make him a veteran who returned from the watch? I already have a lieutenant kitted like that anyway.

[Damon Nightman]

Dual plasma seems pretty decent now actually.

 

Intrigued to how they stack up compared to say a RAS with 2 plasma and a combi plas for cost etc.

 

2pt storm shields are totally mental though, I'm genuinely shocked they made that change!

I thought they were pretty decent before. Similarly priced to the primaris plasma jump people when I checked towards the begining of 8th.

 

RAS sgt cant take a combi weapon unfortunately.

[Indefragable]

I would go dual chainsword for mestshields. 4A in combat with Red Thirst and catch a bullet like anyone else. I think we get more mileage out of that then a bolt pistol, IMO.

[Captain_Krash]

Does the box set come with the duel chainsword option?

 

Krash

[Indefragable]

Does the box set come with the duel chainsword option?

 

Krash

The sprue only has 5x (left hand) chainswords.

 

But chil’, you a Blood Angel...if you can’t find any spare chainswords lyin’ around, you need to go back to stabbin’ school.

 

:)

[The Unseen]

Indefragable, what if he doesn't have any leftover left chainswords because he already used them all, like a proper Angel of Death?

For me, I have spare bolters for absolute days, but not that many spare melee weapons...

Oops.

[sebs_evo7]

Are you guys starting your vets on the table or are you AoD them? I always end up with my sang guard in reserve, my death company using fury and my vets end up just standard deployment, possibly my problem is I am trying to balance too many units in my list but generally I find the vets just get blown off the table before they are able to do anything

[Xenith]

Are you guys starting your vets on the table or are you AoD them? I always end up with my sang guard in reserve, my death company using fury and my vets end up just standard deployment, possibly my problem is I am trying to balance too many units in my list but generally I find the vets just get blown off the table before they are able to do anything

Are you using enough terrain?

 

Loving this vanguard discussion, I'm inspired to make another unit up for the Archangels.

[Mostwanted]

What annoys me with the VV box is that it only has 4 ss (also only 4 pairs of claws). I dont want to build 5 models where 2 of them use the same stormshield, and I cant find any other fitting bit. Do you thing there is way to use a terminator ss? I have the one that's meant to be for a sergeant, but the arm is huge compaired to power armor.

 

 

edit : I guess I can get a deathwatch SS and a deathwatch shoulder pad and make him a veteran who returned from the watch? I already have a lieutenant kitted like that anyway.

If you search ''Siege of Terra; IX Legion, 83rd Company "Crimson Thorns" in the WIP section and look on page 11, OakRiver has used a Blood Angel Storm Shield really well. He shows the arms he used, which are from the FW Imperial Fists Phalanx Warder Squad.

 

I'm going to do it the same way and also try some by attempting to cut the hand off from the bit in the BA assault Terminator box that attaches to the storm shield, then attach that to a power armoured arm. Not sure if that would work though because of the hand and wrist being at a strange angle to fit onto the terminator arm.

[appiah4]

I had armed my (currently unassembled and unpainted) Vanguard Veterean squad with Relic Blade and Storm Shield for the sergeant, 2x Chainsword/Storm Shield, 2x Power Lance/Bolt Pistol, 2x Chainsword/Hand Flamer

 

I guess I am vindicated in my loadout choice? Hehe

[Indefragable]

I haven’t had a chance for theoryhammer w/ VV beyond the occasional think in the restroom.

 

Relic Blades over TH on VV Sgts seems to be the popular opinion...I’m guessing due to -1 To Hit on a WS3+ Sgt.

 

I still lean towards TH b/c the S8 and D:3 seems more useful overall...yes, you may miss more but when you do hit it will hurt more things and do a reliable amount of damage. I would like to think that the math of “actual damage done” would be relatively equal for the two, but I’m guessing the cogitation acolytes are all for the relic blade.

[appiah4]

I haven’t had a chance for theoryhammer w/ VV beyond the occasional think in the restroom.

 

Relic Blades over TH on VV Sgts seems to be the popular opinion...I’m guessing due to -1 To Hit on a WS3+ Sgt.

 

I still lean towards TH b/c the S8 and D:3 seems more useful overall...yes, you may miss more but when you do hit it will hurt more things and do a reliable amount of damage. I would like to think that the math of “actual damage done” would be relatively equal for the two, but I’m guessing the cogitation acolytes are all for the relic blade.

 

From a cool factor POV the Thunder Hammer is unbeatable, it just doesn't synergize well with the rest of the unit's options.  Throwing the Vanguards at a unit that needs solid S8 hits to bring down when the rest of the unit is geared towards moving down light or PA infantry is not an efficient use of the unit..  I'm sure it's nice to have that hammer in there in case you get charged by a Dreadnought or something but if you are getting caught with your pants down like that you probably have worse problems than hitting back at it..

[Indefragable]

 

I haven’t had a chance for theoryhammer w/ VV beyond the occasional think in the restroom.

 

Relic Blades over TH on VV Sgts seems to be the popular opinion...I’m guessing due to -1 To Hit on a WS3+ Sgt.

 

I still lean towards TH b/c the S8 and D:3 seems more useful overall...yes, you may miss more but when you do hit it will hurt more things and do a reliable amount of damage. I would like to think that the math of “actual damage done” would be relatively equal for the two, but I’m guessing the cogitation acolytes are all for the relic blade.

 

From a cool factor POV the Thunder Hammer is unbeatable, it just doesn't synergize well with the rest of the unit's options.  Throwing the Vanguards at a unit that needs solid S8 hits to bring down when the rest of the unit is geared towards moving down light or PA infantry is not an efficient use of the unit..  I'm sure it's nice to have that hammer in there in case you get charged by a Dreadnought or something but if you are getting caught with your pants down like that you probably have worse problems than hitting back at it..

 

 

Captain Smash = 124pts

Hidden Content

Captain

-jump pack

-storm shield

-thunder hammer

 

WS2+

4A (5 w/ DVoS)

T4

5W

3+/3++

possible  6+++ with DVoS, or 5+++ from SoS, or 6+++ re-rolling 1's w/ Gift of Foresight, or 5+++ re-rolling 1's w/ Gift of Foresight + DVoS

 

 

Sgt Smash = 109pts

Hidden Content

Vanguard Vets x 5

-jump packs

-Sgt Thunder hammer + storm shield

-3x storm shield + chainsword

-1x dual chainsword

 

WS3+

3A TH + 13A chainsword attacks

T4

5W

3+/3++

possible  5+++ from SoS

 

...or Sgt Shoot N' Smash = 114pts

Hidden Content

Vanguard Vets x 5

-jump packs

-Sgt Thunder hammer + inferno pistol

-3x storm shield + chainsword

-1x dual chainsword

 

WS3+

3A TH + 13A chainsword attacks

T4

5W

3+/3++

possible  5+++ from SoS

 

 

I am looking at a VV as a variation of the beloved Capt Smash build. You can see my logic above. Of course so much of the mileage our Captain Smash build comes by turning him into Slamguinius ala Warlord Traits and/or by milking Strategems. And of course the character protection. But my point is that from a certain angle, you could have put a Smash-lite in the Elites slot with a similar build. In fact, one could say that it's a more versatile build since those chainswords can be a built-in street sweeper for chaff.

 

Basically, it's the slow-kill approach: tie things up with the SS and then sneak in a hammer blow or two here and there. Think of the Sgt as a 7th ed character buried in a meatshield command squad.

 

It's an idea.

[Gingerninja]

I ran VV with TH/SS around when we got our codex. And my take on them is that they are very strong, BUT if they don´t have a re-roll to hit, they almost always makes you disappointed. Don´t forget that when comparing to the smashcpt.

[Captain_Krash]

@indefragable you do the Emperors work! Thank you for that awesome point break down and list theory crafting. Love seeing stuff like this.

 

VV are packing quite a punch now with there reduced point cost...it's seriously awesome.

 

Krash

[Paladin777]

What are people’s opinions on taking somewith twin lightning claws in addition to cs/ss guys. I’ll be buying a couple of boxes when I can get to my FLGS and I’m thinking about making a relic blade sgt (not sure about left hand yet), 4 with cs/ss, and possibly 5 with LC’s.. or something like that. Is the extra cost worth it for the extra versatility.

[Panzer]

I actually think I'd prefer Power sword + something to shoot with or Stormshield over a pair of Lighting Claws. I'll leave the claw business to the Ravens. ^^