Speculation article on BoLS: Could 8th Ed 40k be the Last?

[firestorm40k]

Hello, I don't know if anyone has seen this article - not sure I agree with it entirely, but it does make some salient points:

 

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/12/40k-deep-thought-8th-edition-could-be-the-games-last.html

 

Okay, I should admit, I've not actually played 40k in over 4 1/2 years.  The last games I played were 6th Ed, literally on the day that 7th Ed was announced and put up for pre-order by GW.  I've recently come back to the hobby after Kill Team piques my interest, and have even ended up getting the Soul Wars set for AoS (those Nighthaunts are very satisfying to paint!).  So I've come away from this article not really as incensed at the idea of 40k being phased out a la WFB, as I would have been if I was still actively playing 40k.

 

The things that, for me, make this plausible, are the following:

 

• GW is now putting some 'advancing' narratives in to 40k, post Rift/Imperium Nihilus - c.f. Vigilus, rumoured campaign where loyalists come to blows over Guilleman putting himself in charge.  With that in mind, it wouldn't surprise me if there is a plan to advance the 40k narrative to a point where there is a 'finale' (the article speculates that it'd be the return of the Emperor in some form).
• The range, and range of factions and their miniatures, is possibly getting unwieldy.  It looks to me (and this is just my opinion!) that GW are planning to make Marines all about Primaris - it wouldn't surprise me that a new game, with a setting after the 41st Millennium, would drop 'standard' Marines altogether.  There's talk that new Militarum/Guardsmen minis are on the way, again GW could use these going forward as the 'standard human' army, and drop older miniatures like the Catachans and Cadians.  I don't think all factions would be affected in the same way - the Xenos races might get a few new units and older ones dropped, but they'd probably do it in a way to bring those in to whatever comes after 40k.  The Chaos factions are an issue, and I'll come to those below...
• GW have done it before, and despite the horror of WFB players at the time, AoS has established itself.  Hell, I tried several times to get in to WFB, but couldn't stick to painting mass units - but I'm enjoying painting those Nighthaunt minis, and am looking forward to painting the Stormcast Eternals from the box set next.  Having a ruleset that aims for flexibility, as AoS seems to have, is more appealing to a 'casual' gamer like me (always preferred the hobby over the game side).

 

On the other hand, I have doubts that this will happen for many years to come:

 

• GW have stated in the past that they would not 'End Times' 40k; and from a financial point of view, it makes sense, as 40k was always the bigger seller than WFB.  Heck, the IP was worth more - it always seemed to me that there were more 40k licensed video games, board games etc. than for WFB.  I find it hard to believe that GW would 'end' and reboot their most popular product.
• If GW were to 'conclude' 40k the narrative, as the article suggests, and have the 'reboot' game x number of years (centuries) after, I struggle to see how the existing Chaos range would fit in to that.  Yeah, Chaos will always be the counter to the Imperium outside of the Xenos, so I expect there'd still be Chaos in some form - but what of the core for the Chaos faction, the Heretic Astartes?  Would the bulk of this faction just be 'dumped', to the anger of thousands of GW customers?  I think it's more likely that GW would redo this range, along the lines of the existing Thousand Sons/Death Guard faction focus, with World Eaters, Emperors Children and Black Legion factions (the latter being the basis for all other Chaos Marine armies, a la 2nd Ed. Codex Ultramarines).  Taking the time, and financial expenditure, to develop these factions and new minitures, then to drop them (or make them less appealing), just doesn't make sense to me.
• Then there's the biggie - hundreds of thousands of people world wide enjoy playing 40k.  They want to carry on playing 40k.  With the introduction of Primaris, GW haven't scrapped 'standard' Space Marines, because so many people still have their armies and will still want to use them.  Simply put, I don't think GW would want to alienate such a large chunk of their fan base by rebooting their most-recognisable game and IP.

 

 

So those are my thoughts, I'm interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this.  I sort of feel that if it does happen, it's not going to affect me too much going forward, I've still got my existing models, and models put aside to paint, and I'll do that because I enjoy it.  If I went back to playing 40k, well at my old gaming group there was talk of going back to 5th Ed (as we'd all got our heads round playing that, and around its issues, before 6th dropped..!).  So I'd still be able to play 40k in some form.  If a new game came along, and I like the new miniatures for it, I might even be tempted to give it a try (even if it doe take 4 years, and two editions, like AoS).

 

But I know current, heavily committed players are likely to be angered at the mere thought of 40k 'ending'.  I really appreciate that - if this does anger you, please don't direct it at me, I'm just sharing the article for the purpose of discussion!

[Marshal Rohr]

They already did this by releasing 8th Edition. They will just keep building on the current rules

[RandyB]

BoLS is notorious for clickbait and intentional controversy (but I repeat myself). I give their content no credence whatsoever. So whatever they prognosticate, I disregard. If another source confirms them, it's either "broken clock" or "blind dog", whichever analogy you prefer.

[Bryan Blaire]

There is no controversy here: we are already passed 40K - 8th Ed won’t be the end of 40K. There is no “narrative story line” in 40K to end, and none that needs to end either. If the Emperor were to be restored, so what? That wouldn’t end the 40K narrative, it would just giving us another huge narrative point to include.

[Panzer]

Not to mention that GW already said that they won't move the clock to or past midnight. Before 8th it might've been 60 seconds to midnight and now it's 57 seconds to midnight but they won't go to the big conclusion point of the narrative. They said they learned a lot from when they created AoS and I actually believe them in that regard.

[Scammel]

Not to mention that GW already said that they won't move the clock to or past midnight. Before 8th it might've been 60 seconds to midnight and now it's 57 seconds to midnight but they won't go to the big conclusion point of the narrative. They said they learned a lot from when they created AoS and I actually believe them in that regard.

I also get the distinct impression that the recent release of Beasts of Chaos is a tacit admission that they screwed the pooch with the way they handled the existing Fantasy factions. In contrast to what happened to greenskins and ogres, BoC is pretty much a straight port of the faction as it existed. 

[Tordeck]

I just had this conversation recently with someone local. While its all just theoryhammer I agree with BoLS that the way things are pointing story wise, model line, 8th ed is already close to 2 years old, etc. A 40k version of endtimes I can see happening in the next 2-5 years.

[Aarik]

GW will not "End Times" 40k. This is just a blatant clickbait article, IMO, with no new points that haven't already been beaten to death.

 

AoS was necessary to bring Fantasy into a more unique, IP protectable place. Dwarves, high elves, dark elves, empire, bretonnians; those are all pretty generic fantasy tropes that GW can't claim as their own. And generate less excitement (and therefor sales) because of it. But steampunk dwarves, naked fire berzerker dwarves, fish elves, snake elves, fantasy space marines...err stormcast; those are all much more unique concepts that GW can claim as their own and make unique miniatures for. Not to mention the whole things with tons of different realms, as well. Plus, bringing the game away from massive blocks of infantry and closer to 40k made the game more accessible.

 

But 40k doesn't have that problem. It 's lore and factions are its defining feature.

 

Plus, GW has just brought out a ton of new side games/model lines that would not make sense if it was going to drastically change the background or game in a few years. Kill team (new rule set GW has committed to supporting for a long time, AND makes a great entry point into the hobby); Necromunda (new/revitalized game system, tons of new kits), Adeptus Titanicus (same), Blackstone Fortress (new game, models, and GW has said it will be expanded), revamped model lines for 40k (DG, TS, Custodes, Adeptus Mechanicus, Primaris, just to name a few). All of that work would be wiped out if GW blew up the setting.

 

Finally, GW is in a pretty unprecedentedly great place financially. The stuff I mentioned above is going over like gangbusters for the most part. And the most controversial part, Primaris, is controversial largely because of the new (largely thought of as trash, and almost unarguably poorly executed from a writing standpoint) fluff that GW used to justify it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Fantasy was (thought of as; and the sales numbers supported it) broke, so GW made a change to fix it. And that change seems to be working. But 40k isn't broke. It's doing better than it has been in a long time. 8th Edition is the "End Times." The universe changed with the Great Rift. New campaigns like Vigilus are moving the story forward enough to generate interest, but not enough to overturn the general thrust of the background (the universe is still grimdark, even though we can argue to exactly what extent).

[Frostglaive]

BoLS is just a bunch of clickbait. I treat everything they put out as false until proven otherwise by more reliable sources.

[Bat33.1]

Complete rubbish = BoLs

 

According to Rob Symes former WHTV frontman 9th edition 'could' land in 2019 as he said on last nights show he was in meetings while working for GW and they were planning on a 2 year cycle for editions. He doesn't have any insight into how far along this has gone though as he left GW 14 months ago.

[Son of Carnelian]

Not happening.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Moronic.

[Lay]

If anyone wants to read the article without giving BOLS click revenue:

https://archive.fo/gCs4x

[The Doctor Of War]

The key difference is that 40k sells well, WHFB didn't and hadn't for quite some time. That, combined with issues arising around IP protection, necessitated the move to Age of Sigmar.

[tylerw]

As far as Chaos goes, even if they wanted to advance the story, they could shift Chaos a little to be a new empire that's still go plenty of rivalry/infighting, but has actually conquered/held parts of the galaxy without destroying them or turning the whole place into sacrifice. 

[Mother of the Cult]

We sill see the replacement of Primaris first, than see one article of BOLS whit no clickbait on it.

[Rob P]

You have two choices to keep things spicey

 

(1) Expand the universe - this can include covering past events (HH, Age of Apostasy, etc), adding additional races or literally making the universe bigger (Ghouls Stars etc)

 

(2) Move the story on - e.g. Guilliman and primaris

 

GW have done the above with tiny steps - even the primaris / great rift  shift is only a breath forward.

 

I wouldn't be surprise if they continue to do a mix of all of the above. Whilst the brand is hot I doubt they have any incentive to move the story/setting dramatically forward

[RWJP]

I absolutely doubt that GW would "End Times" 40k in any way...

They've even allowed themselves plenty of leeway by explaining that the Imperial dating system is so fragmented that what we think is the current timeline could be wrong. In "Dark Imperium" (the Guy Haley novel) Guilliman estimates that what we believe to be roughly 100.M42 (end of the Indomitus Crusade/beginning of the Plague Wars) could actually be anywhere between early M41 and early M42.

The fact that GW have created that perfect plot device to essentially permanently root the game in a semi-nondescript timezone implies they fully intend to keep the game there. There would be no point in rebooting the Universe.

[D3L]

Complete rubbish = BoLs

 

According to Rob Symes former WHTV frontman 9th edition 'could' land in 2019 as he said on last nights show he was in meetings while working for GW and they were planning on a 2 year cycle for editions. He doesn't have any insight into how far along this has gone though as he left GW 14 months ago.

Absolutely

 

If 9th isn't 2019 its guaranteed to tee off in 2020

[Bat33.1]

I can see an argument being put once again by some GW staff to 'clean up' 40k rules and books. It's less than 2 years since 8th edition dropped and I've lost count of the various books, supplements, FAQs, Chapter Approved, errata, clarifications that are now required for a simple game of 40k. Now we have White Dwarf chipping in with rule supplements. Maybe it's time to follow Age of Sigmar's example of battletomes for formation rules, or pay to use them in the app and free unit data sheets for download. Even if they wanted a small fee each month I'd be happy to pay to keep my back intact rather than carry round a bunch of books and supplements.

[The Yncarne]

On the hunched back subject I’ve noticed that FAQs and errata make their way to enhanced electronic codexes, but apparently points updates don’t. It’s almost as if GW wants us to ask out for a rules-based subscription model.

[Panzer]

I can see an argument being put once again by some GW staff to 'clean up' 40k rules and books. It's less than 2 years since 8th edition dropped and I've lost count of the various books, supplements, FAQs, Chapter Approved, errata, clarifications that are now required for a simple game of 40k. Now we have White Dwarf chipping in with rule supplements. Maybe it's time to follow Age of Sigmar's example of battletomes for formation rules, or pay to use them in the app and free unit data sheets for download. Even if they wanted a small fee each month I'd be happy to pay to keep my back intact rather than carry round a bunch of books and supplements.

It's not that much, really.

1. Rulebook

2. Codex

(3. Chapter Approved)

 

and then the FAQ/Errata for each one which is really no reason to complain since not having them would be way worse.

Also the app is already in development as far as we know. It just seems that it's being done by a single guy as a hobby and GW is simply buying it off of him instead of having it properly developed for some reason.

[Tordeck]

More like:

 

rulebook,

3 codexes

chapter approved

FAQ/Errattas

(Vigilius, Urban Conquest, Apoc, whatever extra)

 

The difference between 1 codex and 3 in weight, space, etc is significant. I miss the days of Codex, mini-Core, models.

[PeteySödes]

I’m not really that fussed about the amount of stuff to carry. I do takenissue with losing my armor facings and other interesting bits to “streamlined play” when the game is slower than ever playing against certain armies.

[Lord Marshal]

The key difference is that 40k sells well, WHFB didn't and hadn't for quite some time. That, combined with issues arising around IP protection, necessitated the move to Age of Sigmar.

 

WHFB didn't sell because GW outpriced their audience. There was plenty of potential newblood. The problem was they all got put off when 8th pretty much mandated you buy six boxes of Core - at least - and all the trimmings before you had anywhere need a viable army. The game just did not function at lower points levels compared to 40k when 500pts wasn't too bad of a ways to introduce newcomers and only really necessitated two Troop boxes and a HQ for most. 

 

Now, 40k will always be the front runner but it's entirely possible for them to fall into the same trap again. The impact won't be nearly as bad as 8th was for WHFB, but it's far from impossible. Whales can only go so far.