From Raven to Cross: ideas, help and thoughts welcome

[9x19 Parabellum]

Greetings brothers!  An emissary from the Ravenspire requests your time!

 

I've been building my Raven Guard army for a couple years now.  The last 6-8 months I've started going more-or-less all-in with Primaris, and in fact here's a link to pretty much all of my Raven Guard Primaris force:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/332882-what-have-your-raven-guard-done-lately/?p=5220653

 

Now, I'm not a big fan of the aesthetics of mixing the scales of Original Marines and Primaris. I love them both, for different reasons, but for me they are oil and water.  Thus, I've been playing my Primaris RG as their own thing.  And I've been having a good time with them, but here's the thing: they don't feel like Raven Guard to me.  Both my intercessors and even my Hellblasters in both of the last games I've played have been running into combat to punch the hell out of things. And they've been largely successful doing that.  That's great and all, but doesn't feel very Raven Guardy.

 

So I'm thinking of converting them to a different faction.  And in fact, I'm thinking of scratching off all those Raven icons and replacing them with a Cross.

 

So my question is, what do you guys all think of the notion of an all Primaris Black Templar force?  Both models and/or rules-wise, how could this work?

 

Some specific questions:

 

-Are any of the BT special characters (models) big or massive enough to blend in with the Primaris aesthetic? I really, REALLY like the Emperor's Champion model. But he's resin and, worse, presumably, his body is all one piece, so limited conversion opportunities there. Helbrecht looks pretty massive, though short.

 

-Even if one made a fully primaris force, can it work without Helbrecht and/or Grimaldus?  And if it can't, how does one go about transporting Helbrecht and/or Grimaldus so they can keep up with the rest of the force, since they wouldn't be able to ride in a Repulsor tank?

 

-One of the things I really want to do is get another unit of Intercessors, arm them with Chainswords; they would always pay the 1 CP for the "Veteran Intercessors" upgrade, and the fluff would be that the +1 attack comes from the Chainswords.  This would then map over (roughly) to a Crusader squad (minus the neophytes).

 

So yeah, there you have it.  But I'm interested in any ideas, whether rules, models, or some combination of the 2 that could get these guys to work, as long as everything uses the Primaris scale.

 

Thanks!

[9x19 Parabellum]

So, while I'm waiting on a response to the above, has anyone considered the combo of:

 

-Veteran Intercessors (1 CP); each model now has 3 attacks, plus..

-Grimaldus' unmatched zeal ability (6's generate an additional attack)

-Liberators Stratagem (1 CP); each 6 generates 2 hits instead of 1. Note that the liberators stratagem does not say that these attacks do not generate additional attacks, which means the additional rolls off Grimaldu's special rule could proc additional hits.*

 

With rerolling failed hits...that's....I don't know how many exactly but I believe the precise mathematical output is a "Holy -Tonne of Attacks" (gotta be around 40 hits I imagine?)

 

Now pile-in/consolidate and spend 3 CP to "honor the chapter" and do it all again!

 

 

* at least I'm thinking that's how it works.

[HighMarshalAmp]

Let me play Devil's Advocate for a bit:

 

So essentially, you only have 10 wounds with 2 attacks per model. That's like a Tac Squad charging into CC.

Veterans? Sure, +1 attack, but they're still lacking in gear options. They're still just punching.

 

Right now, Primaris just aren't a CC force. Anything, even Company Vets with Power Weapons outclass them, especially when factoring in the Vigilus Formation.

 

Now if your RG ends up in Melee, maybe you're playing them wrong? (Sorry, but Devil's Advocate, as I said)

Intercessors and Hellblasters have 36" guns with the Hellblasters shooting at S8 without overloading. That's golden for RG Chapter Tactics!

 

And have you considered that next year, there might me more Primaris releases with better Melee focus?

 

Okay, done with being a nag.

 

Now your plan sounds quite good. Intercessors can use Oldmarine arms, so you could use the snazzy chained Chainswoirds from the venerable BT Upgrade Sprue. Like your fluff btw.

 

With the old models... Frankly, there's one of two ways you can go: use the old models and try not to see the difference or converting new models and sticking them onto 32mm bases to silence even the most dickish opponents who measure every move you make twice.

LOS and Cover might be an issue for both parties. Just agree to overlook that.

 

While putting out a decent amount of dice in CC, just remember that you need an elegant way of getting them there. SftS would do, re-rolling charges would do as well, but in the end, you'll have to see which serves you better.

 

I say go for it.

[Marshal Vespasian]

Canadian_F_H did a great primaris EC conversion, all Credit to him for that idea. I'll propably use something similar for a KT commander.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305544-cfh-acadian-crusade-wip-plog/page-4

[9x19 Parabellum]

Let me play Devil's Advocate for a bit:

 

So essentially, you only have 10 wounds with 2 attacks per model. That's like a Tac Squad charging into CC.

Veterans? Sure, +1 attack, but they're still lacking in gear options. They're still just punching.

 

 

Eh? 10 Intercessors is 20 wounds with 3 attacks if given the Veteran Intercessors stratagem.  That's...not like a Tac Squad...but even to the extent that it is, how is it any different than a Crusader squad?  Tacs and Crusaders don't have any difference in close combat gear options.

 

 

Right now, Primaris just aren't a CC force. Anything, even Company Vets with Power Weapons outclass them, especially when factoring in the Vigilus Formation.

 

I totally agree with that. I know it won't be optimized.  I guess I'm trying to see how bad it will be by limiting one's self to just Primaris.  That being said, I might have to stack Termies against Primaris and see how they measure up.

 

 

Now if your RG ends up in Melee, maybe you're playing them wrong? (Sorry, but Devil's Advocate, as I said)

Intercessors and Hellblasters have 36" guns with the Hellblasters shooting at S8 without overloading. That's golden for RG Chapter Tactics!

 

 

I totally disagree with you here.  If you're disregarding melee, you're writing off 50% of a Primaris Marines (intercessors anyway) combat contribution.  Yeah I guess you could do Stalker Bolt Rifle, I just don't think it's terribly impressive for a heavy weapon.  And anyway if you do gunline it, you're still giving up your 2 Str 4 attacks that you're paying points for.  No, I think Primaris are very much meant to be a shoot and assault kind of army.  Right now they don't have a lot of good variation for close combat, but Intercessors for volume of attacks and Aggressors for the big punches can do some work.  The issue is that this playstyle is in direct contradiction with RG chapter tactic. 

 

Let me play Devil's Advocate for a bit:

 

And have you considered that next year, there might me more Primaris releases with better Melee focus?

 

Yes! In fact, I'm counting on it!

 

 

 

Now your plan sounds quite good. Intercessors can use Oldmarine arms, so you could use the snazzy chained Chainswoirds from the venerable BT Upgrade Sprue. Like your fluff btw.

 

With the old models... Frankly, there's one of two ways you can go: use the old models and try not to see the difference or converting new models and sticking them onto 32mm bases to silence even the most dickish opponents who measure every move you make twice.

LOS and Cover might be an issue for both parties. Just agree to overlook that.

 

While putting out a decent amount of dice in CC, just remember that you need an elegant way of getting them there. SftS would do, re-rolling charges would do as well, but in the end, you'll have to see which serves you better.

 

I say go for it.

 

ok then well I'm thinking Repulsor's for Intercessors and/or Aggressors, and a Drop Pod for the named Characters.  Reivers, should I ever decide to use them, can kind of come in on their own, but right now I don't think they are even close to points effiicient.

[Johanhgg]

Im interested in this thread since im thinking about doing an primaris BT force, well not entirely, but mostly.

 

Following with interest!

[HighMarshalAmp]

I meant to say Crusader, sorry.

They can however all take Chainswords - a 10 man Primaris squad will still have more wounds than a 10 man Crusader squad. It's hard to discredit Intercessors, ya know?

The wounds/ attack ratio however is still equivalent to Oldmarines with Chainswords, but one Intercessor does the job of two Crusaders... it's only a difference of model count 'til the Stratagem comes in.

 

Terminators are still overcosted. I've ordered 15 to add to my Templars, but that's passion, not Tactical prowess.

 

I do tend to judge gun-toting units by their marksmanship. If a model really does 50% of its damage in CC, it's not good at shooting. Primaris do better ranged than in CC, but if you like their CC performance, their shooting is just the icing on the cake. The guns are free after all ;)