Chapter Approved feedback on Space wolves so far

[Kasper_Hawser]

Phew, I've been revising most of my lists, well actually ALL of my lists from my Bjorn Task Forces to my MSU Razorback lists. In most cases I found out I was suddenly 50-70 points shorter, which basically translated into either filling out with more Claws or Hunters, or being able to fit power weapons for all my Wolf Guard Sergeants. For my Long Fangs, I had a few savings as well since I tend to have mixed Lascannon and Missile Launcher squads, which means I could add almost an extra lascannon, or fill out with another heavy bolter.

 

One of the more notable cost savings is the multi melta, which is now cheaper than a Lascannon as it should be, and closer to the old plasma cannon costs. This has made me consider playing aggressively with Long Fangs, either outflanking a bunch of them with MM or put them in a Stormfang to really get up close and personal and unleash either a storm of melta, or a storm of Heavy Bolters. A bunch with 5 heavy bolters is surprisingly cheap at 134 points.

 

So far yet to have any games, I hope to have one vs Orks this Sunday on 30th. Will be using my traditional 4 Twin assault cannon Razorbacks with a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf with claws, wulfen stone and Saga of Wolfkin as my main counter attack. Oh and with Njal as support. hopefully will be enough to stem the tide to manageable numbers by the time he reaches my lines. If he uses speed freaks or dreads or even a Stompa, hopefully my Long Fangs will whittle them down too. May sound a bit cowardly, but I still prefer my mid range gunlines.

 

Anyway, I also wanted to ask if anyone has had a game with Chapter Approved changes as well, and if so, what's the verdict so far?

[Kallas]

Anyway, I also wanted to ask if anyone has had a game with Chapter Approved changes as well, and if so, what's the verdict so far?

 

Verdict: Meh.

 

There are few actually worthwhile changes in CA18. We got plenty of points drops for subpar equipment (Meltas, for example) and for some inexplicable reason Plasma also dropped in cost (absolutely mind boggling, and maintains the 'Plasma=best' state). However we're still Marines, and our core issues (and points) haven't been sorted out.

 

• Grey Hunters/Blood Claws are still 13pts each, which is too much;
• units that get kitted out are still too expensive for what they do;
• our vehicles are still just too expensive - Rhinos are ok, Razorbacks are solid, Land Raiders are still a bit too expensive but at least they tried; Land Speeders are still crap because they're made of paper and can't hit the broadside of a Broadside; Vindicator is still worthless; the poor Predator is now completely outmatched by the Contemptor Mortis (who brings better firepower for less) and Twin LC Razorbacks (two TLCRBs cost only 220 vs the Quad LC Predator's 180, but they have 9 extra wounds and are two different targets, plus transport capacity); Whirlwinds went down but they still hit like the ghost of a kiss and so are functionally worthless; Hunters are ok now, but they're still just a Lascannon on tracks. The flyers are ok, but it's amazing how prolific T7/3+ is, even among factions that are 'lighter' (getting sidetracked, but it's dumb that 'glass cannons' like Eldar get 7/3+ on so much stuff even though their vehicles are also faster and fly; and their flyers are both more manoeuvrable and just as tough as ours! Urgh!)
• Terminators. Hm. Still too expensive, and with Plasma getting reduced in cost they're still shelf warmers for the most part. We have the best (loyalist) Terminators, however, as we can kit them out with the cheapest options (Deathwatch get less flexibility, but better shooting) such as Power Sword/Maul+Storm Bolters/Storm Shield which could actually be pretty solid (I'm toying with an idea with Arjac, a Stone-bearer and a big unit of Power Maul/Storm Bolter+some Shields for a deep striking hammer and anvil all-in-one - a hamvil, if you will). I think the change to Storm Shields isn't going to last too long (predominantly because Deathwatch is able to put them on everything, which will become obnoxious) and was probably not tested enough in general, but I'm also a huge pessimist. Shrug.
• Dreadnoughts getting a good 20-30pt drop is nice. Armigers completely invalidated them and now they're at least relatively cheaper. Between regular Dreadnoughts, Venerables, Wulfen and Contemptor Mortis, I like we could easily threat saturate with a wall of stompy boys.
• Drop Pods: still garbage. Points can only do so much, and in their current state Pods need to be about 20-30pts, because they're just bad.

Probably not the kind of stuff you wanted to hear, but oh well 

 

I'm honestly not happy with CA18. It was just...meh. It did nothing to actually fix the plethora of balance issues we have - the most notable is how Plasma is still cheaper than Melta/Grav, what?! That's so dumb, and it's such an easy fix (leave Plasma at 13/15; drop Melta/Grav to 11 each, done). We're still in a Horde edition where raw numbers will be a huge facet and our capability to fight against that is functionally the same (Flamers dropped in cost; but they're still :cuss because they gutted 95% of the horde killing weapons in the game) while our resilience is no better, meaning we'll still get swept away by the masses of dice rolled in our direction. No fixing of Marine Chapter Tactics with regards to vehicles, which is hugely annoying and utterly pointless. My belief that Mechanised Marines are one of the better ways to play Marines hasn't changed (as we haven't had sweeping enough changes...oh, poor Grey Knights...) and at least Twin LC Razorbacks got a bit cheaper which is nice.

 

Anyway, I'll stop ranting now. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

Wow that's a long rant and although not totally unwarranted or unreasonbable, my first reaction is that somehow I think you may have been expecting too much from CA 2018. But I'll reserve further judgement until I've had my first game.

 

As mentioned, personally speaking i'm somewhat happy that now I have more points to fit weapons on my sergeants, whereas before in order to save cost, I had to sacrifice the weapons in favor of combi weapons, even after the Space Wolves codex came out. At least makes my MSU grey hunters with Wolf Guard sergeants more deadlier rather than just armed with chainswords.

[Kallas]

my first reaction is that somehow I think you may have been expecting too much from CA 2018. But I'll reserve further judgement until I've had my first game.

It's not like GW has had a year and a half to notice these things! And their Big FAQs have been...two steps forward, one step backwards too - see the FLY change as a prime example ("Soup is creating an issue, lets nerf melee FLY!")

 

It's not that there's no benefits, and there are some nice changes (which I did mention!), but I'm massively disappointed in several key areas:

• Regular Marine bodies are still crap
• Plasma is still king (which is one of the prime reasons for the above)
• Marine Vehicles are still mostly pathetic

As mentioned, personally speaking i'm somewhat happy that now I have more points to fit weapons on my sergeants, whereas before in order to save cost, I had to sacrifice the weapons in favor of combi weapons, even after the Space Wolves codex came out. At least makes my MSU grey hunters with Wolf Guard sergeants more deadlier rather than just armed with chainswords.

That is nice, but it's not going to do anything to really help Marines much in any significant capacity. Hell, my best performing list got a mighty 30pts cheaper (Bjorn's Twin LC and four character Storm Shields - wow, what will I spend my savings on )

 

Marines desperately need to have enough bodies on the field to be a reasonably competitive mono-Codex, and this CA only really helps if before you were loading out your units too heavily (in my opinion: I honestly feel that MSU and big squads with a heap of special weapons are just too expensive for their output).

 

Things I do like:

• Dreadnoughts got some much needed love (Twin LC/DCCW Dreads are 30pts cheaper, which is very nice and makes them a solid option)
• Storm Shields are cheaper (which I also don't like, because there is already a proliferation of invulnerable saves, but Marines really need the survivability)
• Um...Typhoon/Cyclone Missile Launchers finally no longer cost the same as a Twin Lascannon?

[FabulousRex]

Chaff is way too Cheap, and too hard to kill. 4pts vs 13 is just stupid. It's simple math. Who do you think will win, 10 marines or freaking 32 guardsmen?

 

Multiply that by 10 to 20,based on points size,and you will get swept off the board by the weight of math.

 

http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/12/mathammer-why-tactical-squads-and-a-lot-of-elite-infantry-generally-suck/

 

Guardsmen are somehow 1/3 as cheap, but %20 MORE survivable,and about %50 MORE killy. GW is screwing over marines with poor math skills.

[PeteySödes]

Chaff is way too Cheap, and too hard to kill. 4pts vs 13 is just stupid. It's simple math. Who do you think will win, 10 marines or freaking 32 guardsmen?

 

Multiply that by 10 to 20,based on points size,and you will get swept off the board by the weight of math.

 

http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/12/mathammer-why-tactical-squads-and-a-lot-of-elite-infantry-generally-suck/

 

Guardsmen are somehow 1/3 as cheap, but %20 MORE survivable,and about %50 MORE killy. GW is screwing over marines with poor math skills.

This wasn’t a CA issue though. It’s been like this since 8th dropped.

 

As far as the CA I feel it oddly re enforced my playstyle by making a TDAWG tank in every quad dirt cheap and slashing combi weapon costs so WG are very playable. My normal lists dropped about 75-125 in points which is nice but that hardly leaves room for something crazy.

 

The problem I have is that it dropped at the same time as vigilus and while I like the idea of paying 2 cp for another WL trait for a smash jarl, we almost certainly got the worst detachment. Look at any of the gaurd ones and weep while they pay less for the same gear as us then get strats to do what they already were doing...but better, and without strings.

 

Then they flubbed a few things for us making us wait for errata, WG pack leader costs and Twolf shields. So that’s annoying.

 

All in all we’re in a better spot and can do some cool things but since this clearly was an internal balance check vs external, everyone is in a better spot. No real line jumps here in terms on power IMO.

 

Add in vigilus though and I think we’re going to see Gaurd win a lot of games with those spec detachments. Mark my words...

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

The problem I have is that it dropped at the same time as vigilus and while I like the idea of paying 2 cp for another WL trait for a smash jarl, we almost certainly got the worst detachment. Look at any of the gaurd ones and weep while they pay less for the same gear as us then get strats to do what they already were doing...but better, and without strings.

 

Then they flubbed a few things for us making us wait for errata, WG pack leader costs and Twolf shields. So that’s annoying.

 

All in all we’re in a better spot and can do some cool things but since this clearly was an internal balance check vs external, everyone is in a better spot. No real line jumps here in terms on power IMO.

 

Add in vigilus though and I think we’re going to see Gaurd win a lot of games with those spec detachments. Mark my words...

 

 

Well I'm just glad we didn't get WORSE in CA, even if the Stalker Pack was a bit lacklustre. Which is why my expectation was zero to begin with.

 

Deviating to Vigilus, I do like the relic though, which is superior to Black Death if only for the D3 damage plus potential mortal wounds, and that it is slightly cheaper at power axe cost instead of frost axe. S5 and S6 doesn't really make a difference as most vehicles are T7, and tough units are T5. I'll reserve judgement until I try it.

 

As Fearpetey said, it reinforces my existing playstyle leaving me more toys for my boyz. Now all my MSUs will be rocking claws, fists and shields as they were supposed to be, whereas before I only armed them with chainswords. Gotta rip a lot of chainsword arms off now though and replace them with shiny new weapons.

 

Competitive or not, I don't really care anymore. If someone tries to do that horrible broken Imperial Fist intercessor heavy detachment using loyal 32 ( http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/12/40k-wth-the-best-intercessors-are-imperial-fists.html ) to pay for all the extra CP, I'm just going to turn up my nose and not play that horribly cheating idea (in my opinion, not imposing on all). Same thing for any other min maxer of the other new specialist detachments.

[WolfLordZeev]

Im still trying to figure out why folks are so apoplectic about that Imp fists list. Like...its ok I guess? Its a not horrible Imperial Fists army...which is the first time anybody has said that this edition. BOLS tends toward hyperbolic hype. This list will still lose to pretty much every serious competitive list. Standard Eldar/ynnari/deldar lists will scrape all 30 intercessors off in one or two turns. They have no way of dealing with more then maybe a single knight. A guard gunline will probably table it with only maybe taking one or two rounds of shooting. Hell even our army would rip it to shreads if a decent number of our characters or wulfen or planes headed up the board.

 

It uses a large number of stacking bonuses to make a bad faction function optimally. That bad faction played to its absolute best is still at most middle tier in my honest opinion.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Im still trying to figure out why folks are so apoplectic about that Imp fists list. Like...its ok I guess? Its a not horrible Imperial Fists army...which is the first time anybody has said that this edition. BOLS tends toward hyperbolic hype. This list will still lose to pretty much every serious competitive list. Standard Eldar/ynnari/deldar lists will scrape all 30 intercessors off in one or two turns. They have no way of dealing with more then maybe a single knight. A guard gunline will probably table it with only maybe taking one or two rounds of shooting. Hell even our army would rip it to shreads if a decent number of our characters or wulfen or planes headed up the board.

 

It uses a large number of stacking bonuses to make a bad faction function optimally. That bad faction played to its absolute best is still at most middle tier in my honest opinion.

 

You are right, I'm not sure why I was so apoplectic (new word I learn by the way, thanks. :) ) I think it is because it still uses the loyal 32 to "cheat" the specialist detachment system tax. Yeah, I think that's why I was apoplectic, the list claims to be Imperial Fists, but it really isn't.

 

God, I really need to stop reading Bols articles. Frontline gaming articles are more sensible I think. 

 

Anyway, for my last game of 2018, I'll be fighting Orks this Sunday. Let's hope it ends in a glorious victory for the Rout. Although more importantly, I would prioritise a fun game even if I end up being drowned in a sea of greenskins. You can't fight Orks and not end up laughing even if you lose. Right?

[PeteySödes]

I stopped reading that when he got to “free relics”, that guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. If your most scared of the IF stuff in there I have a bridge to sell you.

[Karack Blackstone]

I think the pack to squad size comparison of old needs one last dead horse kick attempt.

 

For the same points, one gets 30 Guardsmen or 10 Marines. So of 6 / 7th Ed. a minimum platoon with five spare bodies.

 

The problem is not just ppm, it is weight of dice per model, almost meaninglessly better save on one die but far more wounds to absorb into 30 than 10.

 

Basically, from a game systems design perspective, and the same total stats for Marine squads, that’s a pretty decent number of spare wounds.

 

I think the “inviolate” nature of a Marine being the same Wounds value as a Guard has been a nice carry over since RT days for even Marine PBI.

 

How to proceed is the next bast question.

 

The answer back is then what to do for non-Marine Line Infantry. I know I want a fair game, at least from the army building sources go. The serious concern is how does a game designer reinvent Wh40k without alienating so many players because the PA lads want their “proper” stats?

 

It’s a lose-lose situation for GW, in a way.

 

The lesser evil is to keep people playing whilt they try to make a 130 pt ten man squad work as well as a 120 pt thirty man platoon, when people have had a reference their whole time in the game be 1 Wound Marines.

 

It’s cursed ro remain, because...

 

Say you play Guard. Marines just got three times harder to kill. You used to need say 20 shots, now you need 60. Well, why keep playing games because the poster boys got greedy?

 

Damn, I wouldn’t wish this on anyone...

[Kallas]

The issue of bodies is not to be understated: 10 shots can, potentially, kill 10 Marines, but it can't kill 30 Guardsmen.

[PeteySödes]

I think aside from points the fasted way to at least alleviate issues is to fix morale. I still can’t for the life of me understand how the heck they made the one classic weakness of horde armies or mass infantry and gave every...single...one...multiple outs. All the while ATSKNF I’d easily the weakest so I lose far more marines to LD than any of my opponents.

 

But I digress. CA good. Needs be more good.

[Ahistorian]

Heavy Weapons Teams might show the way; multi-basing line human style troops to have fractional wounds per actual body. So a squad might have a Sergeant (1W), HWT (1W), SWT (1W), and a five-man manoeuvre section (3W). Then Guard/Eldar/Gaunts whatever are more fragile than Marines.

[Kasper_Hawser]

While the feedback on the problem of marine stats and cost efficiency is interesting, I would like to gently steer us back to how CA has been impacting us WOLVES, not other armies. Maybe other armies became even more efficient and imba, but let's stick to the impact on Wolves instead. 

 

Specifically, how has CA affected our lists and our games if any. For my part, I'll have a report by Sunday to see how my new army goes. Going to stick Lukas the Trickster in for lulz as I just finished painting him.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

I am happy with the reductions we got. Marine bodies are still too expensive.

 

The one thing I wanted was Fenrisian Wolves cost to be reduced to 6 points per model from last Chapter Approved. Where they are at now is a bit too much. Email GW people. SAVE THE FENRISIAN WOLVES!

[PeteySödes]

Fought some Orks today, he used the new speed freek detachment. I used a lot of CA updated units, contemptor mortis with autos (solid) and fully kitted my WGPA unit for combi flamers, a few Shields, and a leader with a storm bolter and T hammer.

 

That WG unit was the business.....I hadn’t ran flamers since 7th when I would pod them in but the gear was so cheap I wanted to try. Their RB got first turn piled in by bikes using turbo boostas which was NOT what I had hoped to get stuck in with against him but they still cleaned house even with the majority 5+ to wound.

 

5/7 would take again.

 

Grey hunter squads I sprung for the fists and had TDAWG shield/SB tanks in each which I think alone saved their respective squads once over each. All in all it was a real fun list and I got to mash some green skins into the dirt which by all accounts isn’t happening to much nowadays.

[brother_b]

Hello wolf brothers, very interesting read from a BA player. The CA has been nice but not enough to alleviate issues with elite armies.

 

I've continued to suffer playing against horses and especially the IG. It's so hard to counter his army he's got high str tanks, bodies, and firepower like crazy. I still pull off the win every now and then!

 

My BA have been hamstrung by the new air drop ruled, especially with the new fly rules. It's like melee continues to get harder unless you've got some built in rules to help like orc rerolls.

 

I still dread the drop of his plasma scions.

[PeteySödes]

Yea the Tempestus one suuuucks to play against. Biggest tip if you know your playing them is to mount up, spread, and pop smoke. If you’re centralized you’ll melt so you need to make them choose.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Yea the Tempestus one suuuucks to play against. Biggest tip if you know your playing them is to mount up, spread, and pop smoke. If you’re centralized you’ll melt so you need to make them choose.

 

What's so different about Tempestus now? I thought they've always been able to Deep strike all over the place with their plasma even before Chapter approve 2018. I've had to deal with them a number of times were multiple MSUs of Tempestus with the commanders deepstriking. Wouldn't have been a problem except he had a freaking Stormlord in the game.

[Kallas]

What's so different about Tempestus now? I thought they've always been able to Deep strike all over the place with their plasma even before Chapter approve 2018. I've had to deal with them a number of times were multiple MSUs of Tempestus with the commanders deepstriking. Wouldn't have been a problem except he had a freaking Stormlord in the game.

 

They did get cheaper, as their Hot-Shots are now free (9+2 (11) -> 9+0 (9)), as well as their special weapons coming down too (Meltas and Plasma match Marines, Grenade Launchers are only 3pts).

 

Tempestus aren't as numerous as regular Guard, of course, but they're plentiful enough to be a damn solid army in their own right - and alongside regular Guard they're going to make them a pretty competitive mono-Codex army, in my opinion.

 

For example: you can bring a Battalion of Tempestus:

3x Primes (Command Rods)

 

3x Command Squads (4x Meltaguns/Plasma Guns)

 

3x 10 Scions (4x Meltaguns/Plasma Guns)

 = 849 points (assuming all Meltaguns, so it's only 777 with Plasma!)

 

That Battalion packs in 24 Special Weapons, enough orders for all of the units (and Tempestus have a special order to reroll all failed wounds vs Vehicles/Monsters), and they can all deep strike (assuming the rest of the Guard list isn't, which is a pretty reasonable assumption). Plus it's 45 bodies that just drop in turn two/three and start melting vehicles (and with the volume of fire, they'll punch through MEQs like they're not even there).

[TiguriusX]

The key with tempestus units is BS3 and special weapons plus orders rerolling to hit and wound

 

They are basically the same offensive output as the best marine elite units for a fraction of the cost. They also count as troops and get free deep strike.

 

A marine has higher T and armor...woopty doo. In 8th lethality is dialed up past 11 and it doesn't matter.

 

The tempestus are superior alpha strike units....period

[Kallas]

The key with tempestus units is BS3 and special weapons plus orders rerolling to hit and wound

 

They are basically the same offensive output as the best marine elite units for a fraction of the cost. They also count as troops and get free deep strike.

 

A marine has higher T and armor...woopty doo. In 8th lethality is dialed up past 11 and it doesn't matter.

 

The tempestus are superior alpha strike units....period

Yeah, all of that 

 

Plus they're cheaper (9pts base) which means they can simply have more models. Plus their Hot-Shot Lasguns, while shorter range, have AP-2 over Bolters' AP0.

[Karack Blackstone]

To the well put replies to my post.

 

How then, might we proceed to show or teach GW, if ever, that there's a problem? It's a huge change, and if no other army gets the same treatment, there'd be a very possible, "We're out," from a pretty sizable portion of the current player base.

 

I get there's an issue. It's the solution that's the elusive and hard part...

[Karack Blackstone]

...

 

What do readers think of the following concept?

Take the current regular Astartes stat line, and make the following changes:

 

+1 Wound, +1 Wound total

+2 Resilience, the stat from War of the Ring and Lord of the Rings previous edition.

 

A volley of lasgun fire must cause 4 total wounds to kill any rank and file Astartes.

Call it 14 points to start, and have at. TDA models are likely okay at 6 total wounds to kill, R 3 wouldn't hurt to at least playtest... for TDA, a bake in 6 might work, 9 might need +2 to +5 to the points total, in terms of ppm.

 

Meh...