Chapter Approved feedback on Space wolves so far

[TiguriusX]

IMHO the problem with GW is the game designers seem to be working in a void and not playing their own game.

 

To go on a personal rant here for a second this complaint goes double for GW's knowledge of Space Wolves who they seem to treat like generic marines without knowing our nuances.  I literally got into an argument with Simon Grant during the SW release month on the GW twitch stream about why our wolf scouts were a poor elite option and said deployment board control is a major part of 8th edition (scouts are more popular than tacticals for a reason).  I emphasized Space Wolves can't do board control with elite scouts.  We lose CP from battalion filler and we can't do a skill noob scouts can.  The simplest solution is to simply give SW scouts the same abilities a generic scout has.  He said we can use outflank for similar results....I strongly disagreed but respected him enough to say we will have to agree to disagree.  I truly like Simon and didn't want to disrespect him and seem like a troll during his twitch stream.

 

Anyways...Marines were much more durable in prior editions where AP was binary (it either did or did not penetrate) rather than a modifier

 

In that game sure a marine was worth the extra cost over a guardsman.  Volume of fire still negated the armor save but it added a little value to the cost of the marine

 

In 8th edition everyone who needs to shoot is packing enough AP to smoke a marine twice over.  The T4 and 3+ armor has little to no value in the game.  It simply does not help a 1W model because RNG happens and you don't have enough marine bodies to ride out a bad run (I speak from personal experience with 5 jump Wolf Guard all packing storm shields...some games they block everything others they all die to small arms fire on the first armor save).  The problem is GW doesn't recognize this.  To add insult to injury marines carry the pathetic bolter for AP0 so they aren't very good for offense or defense.  In a game where a space marine should be special they were instead used as the baseline for all other units/wargear.

[Karack Blackstone]

I agree.

 

There's a massive lack of context of concept to result, and that problem is further compounded by Marines being Baseline, instead of the Median.

 

I realize that may be the core of the issue here. Didn't GW itself once call Marines the Baseline, rather than the Median? Maybe a better word for it should be Benchmark, but, even if GW tries to call it that, it almost never feels that way on the table. AP is high, 3+ is basically 5+ or 6+ most of the time, the dice don't favor 1 Wound ten man squads.

 

I guess, it's best to try stating it as...

 

1 Infantry Squad

1 Sergeant, BG

9 Guards, replace lasgun and las pistol with boltgun and bolt pistol

Swap to 3+ WS, 3+ BS, +1 S, +1 T, +1 Ld, 3+ Save.

 

And it all goes from 4 ppm to 13...

 

K.

 

Back to it though, I did choose to make a thread over in the Adeptus Astartes subforum discussing the editions-old problem of how to try and figure out a way to better represent Marines on the table.

 

Marines... Aren't.

[PeteySödes]

Gretchen get saves against bolters. Learned that yesterday, was not amused.

[Marshal van Trapp]

One thing I dont understand is why all the wolf specific stuff is so much worse than regular marine equivalent, the only thing wolves have up on regular marines is grey hunters (who are arguably better than base marines even though they cant take heavy weapons)

 

Wulfen and thunderwolf are decent too but marines dont have an equivalent

 

Skyclaws- objectively worse than assault marines (although who is taking either)

 

Swiftclaws- worse than bikers on many levels

 

Wolfguard- technically a combination of vanguard and stearnguard veterans, and while decent in their own right suffer from the rule of 3 (could have 6 codex vet squads but only 3 wolf vet squads...)

 

Wolf scouts- not even close to the same as regular scouts

 

Long fangs- better than devastator squads in volume of fire but lack the extra bodies to tank wounds (although a WGPL with SS is great for that, he still only has 1 wound)

 

Bloodclaws- closest marine equivalent is assault squads without jps, and they arnt worth giving any kind of special weapon to (well not the shooting ones) although they are troops so objsec is nice

 

Overall I feel like they didnt really try to make SW feel like it's own army but make it a marine chapter with some subtle changes, in time I'm hoping the primaris get some cool SW specific units otherwise I really dont think they'll prosper

[PeteySödes]

One thing I dont understand is why all the wolf specific stuff is so much worse than regular marine equivalent, the only thing wolves have up on regular marines is grey hunters (who are arguably better than base marines even though they cant take heavy weapons)

 

Wulfen and thunderwolf are decent too but marines dont have an equivalent

 

Skyclaws- objectively worse than assault marines (although who is taking either)

 

Swiftclaws- worse than bikers on many levels

 

Wolfguard- technically a combination of vanguard and stearnguard veterans, and while decent in their own right suffer from the rule of 3 (could have 6 codex vet squads but only 3 wolf vet squads...)

 

Wolf scouts- not even close to the same as regular scouts

 

Long fangs- better than devastator squads in volume of fire but lack the extra bodies to tank wounds (although a WGPL with SS is great for that, he still only has 1 wound)

 

Bloodclaws- closest marine equivalent is assault squads without jps, and they arnt worth giving any kind of special weapon to (well not the shooting ones) although they are troops so objsec is nice

 

Overall I feel like they didnt really try to make SW feel like it's own army but make it a marine chapter with some subtle changes, in time I'm hoping the primaris get some cool SW specific units otherwise I really dont think they'll prosper

I agree with the scouts thing but everything else I have to challenge you on. In terms of overall changes, we play far and away different to codex marines with some really fluffy and interesting strategems.

 

You can keep your dev squads Long Fangs are one of the most reliable heavy supports in the game right now. Sure, we don’t have the ablative bodies but that’s the point, we’re space wolves and that’s potentially the last stop at the station.

 

Our Wolf Guard are meant to lead and really in the most dire situations form up into a few squads. Again, you can keep your veterans, I love that we can boost our squads with TDA or other special weapons. Which bring me to the troops, grey hunters have never had heavies but we get chainswords and this edition especially that matters. Blood Claws are also insanely useful, you complain about special weapons here again but I don’t see why. They put out a metric crap ton of attacks, more than you “marine equivalent assault squad” but it’s a troop choice. You can make a squad of 15, get 3 flamers, or even outflank them. They’re awesome, there’s not a marine equivalent.

 

You also missed out on one of the better transports in the game right now the Stormwolf. All in all feel like your complaints are just kind of ignorant, no offense. The things you complain about are what make us wolves wolves without recognizing the nuance.

 

We’re doing better or as good as most marines not led by rowboat.

[Kallas]

One thing I dont understand is why all the wolf specific stuff is so much worse than regular marine equivalent, the only thing wolves have up on regular marines is grey hunters (who are arguably better than base marines even though they cant take heavy weapons)

 

Overall I feel like they didnt really try to make SW feel like it's own army but make it a marine chapter with some subtle changes, in time I'm hoping the primaris get some cool SW specific units otherwise I really dont think they'll prosper

Eh, I can't agree, completely, either. There's quite a lot of good stuff that's Wolf-specific. There are some instances of Generic > Wolf, but there are also instances of Generic = Wolf and Wolf > Generic.

 

Skyclaws- objectively worse than assault marines (although who is taking either)

 

Actually, no. Assault Marines are, of course, terribad, but it's because they can't actually do anything in melee or at range. Skyclaws have worse ranged game (BS4+ vs 3+), but considering they're only packing Bolt Pistols anyway that's pretty irrelevant. In melee, Skyclaws are 50% better than Assault Marines - so at their primary role, melee, Skyclaws are better.

 

Further, Skyclaws have a far greater range of support buffs: they have Hunters Unleashed (only comparable to Blood Angels and White Scars), can get buffs from having a WGPL, and there are a few different unique buffs (Wulfen Stone, better defensive Psychic Powers to deliver them). Skyclaws aren't going to light the world on fire, but they are actually functional, unlike Assault Marines.

 

Swiftclaws- worse than bikers on many levels

 

I do agree with this. The BS4+ kills their functionality, as they should be predominantly a shooting unit. They do keep Berserk Charge, so they are capable of piling in to melee with 3 attacks each, which isn't bad, but they're still paying a premium - that said, they do get 2W and T5, which isn't to be sniffed at.

 

Wolfguard- technically a combination of vanguard and stearnguard veterans, and while decent in their own right suffer from the rule of 3 (could have 6 codex vet squads but only 3 wolf vet squads...)

 

Wolf Guard are far superior Vanguard. They have all of the Vanguard options, including Jump Pack (although until SW get a proper showing in CA, they're too expensive - but that's not the Wolf Guards' fault, that's GW's terrible oversight) as well as all of the non-Heavy ranged options available to Sternguard.

 

They can be equipped with a huge plethora of weapons, and they're almost all very useful (only Frost Axes are really untenable at the moment). They can be made for chaff shredding with Storm Bolters and Chainswords; they can be anti-elite with Combi-Melta/Plasma and Frost Swords/Wolf Claws; anti-tank/monster with Thunder Hammers/Power Fists. They can be resilient with Storm Shields.

 

While they do suffer from the Rule of Three (which is de facto meta, even though it's technically an optional rule) it's honestly unlikely that one would be able to run an army with more than three units without suffering in other areas (eg, CP which they can't generate well).

 

Wolf scouts- not even close to the same as regular scouts

 

Kind of agree. They are definitely worse than regular Scouts because Outflank <<< Infiltrate for sure. They do, however, get access to some good special weapons - it's not a huge deal, as Scouts are generally best when kept cheap, but they can pop up with a few Meltas/Plasma for a little surprise with some bite.

 

The bigger issue is the Wolf Scout Bikers, who are still more expensive than regular Scout Bikes with the only difference being they gain Outflank (which is certainly not worth 8pts).

 

Long fangs- better than devastator squads in volume of fire but lack the extra bodies to tank wounds (although a WGPL with SS is great for that, he still only has 1 wound)

 

Definitely better than Devastators when you factor in the TDAWGPL option with possible Storm Shield, they become damn resilient against counter fire. Without a WGPL of either kind, yes they have less bodies, but they do pack in more Heavy Weapons - they're better at the job than Devastators but are more front-loaded damage with less staying power.

 

Bloodclaws- closest marine equivalent is assault squads without jps, and they arnt worth giving any kind of special weapon to (well not the shooting ones) although they are troops so objsec is nice

 

Non-JP Assault Marines are functionally worthless. They're just bad Tactical Marines, who are already bad. Blood Claws, thanks to Berserk Charge, can actually function as a shock troop - pack in WGPLs and a character with Wulfen Stone and you can make a potent linebreaker unit. They still suffer from the same downsides as every Marine (ie, T4/Sv3+ not actually being useful) but Assault Marines have the same without any redeeming qualities.

 

And actually having ObSec on that frontline melee unit is way more useful than at first pass - Assault Marines might be able to kill a unit of Guardsmen (if they roll super hot, because they're garbage) but they can't hold it from counter attack because just a single enemy ObSec trooper will take it away from them.

[FabulousRex]

I'm in favor of reducing the AP of attacks against Marines by 1. Simple survivability boost that leans on good armor saves.

 

As for Good Things? I think Landspeeders with 1 flamer each are a fantastic distraction unit. Not too much threat, but not toothless. A classic Jamming Unit. Sending them ahead of assault oriented units eats overwatch and jams movement against horde armies. I advance the speeders to 2" away from Orks, and sit there blocking movement.

 

Wulfen got better with THSS, like they needed that. Powerfists are affordable, Intercessors having a PF option kinda makes them the best footslogging Troops.

[Marshal van Trapp]

Hmm perhaps I dont have a true fundamental understanding of the wolves units in 8th, although I suppose a better comparison for bloodclaws would actually be Black Templar crusader squads, also armed for melee, they are also a troop (and have objsec) and have the nice synergy of having the ability to reroll failed charges, but also still have BS 3+. I'd argue that Bloodclaws all have a 3+ armor save but if I'm taking a 20 man crusader squad (10 PA 10 Neophytes) then I'm more than likely going to use the scouts for ap -2 or better and take ap -1 or 0 on the regular marines anyway.

 

As for skyclaws perhaps I just don't understand their role properly, I use mine (although only really once) as a thunderhammer/power fist delivery system and that worked better than bloodclaws in a rhino but not amazingly.

 

As for wolfguard, as stated they're just too many points for what they do, yeah they're flexible but they serve much better as extra squad leaders (especially in my blood claws packs where it gives me 2 special weapons with 2 attacks each that can crack open big armor or high wound targets equally well)

 

I'm still truly learning the ways if the wolves but the units we have that have marine equivalents just dont seem different enough in good enough ways (seriously elite scouts? Cool make them better! Not worse!)

[PeteySödes]

Wolf Guard are 100% not too high in points for what they do, but you do need to figure out what you need to do.

 

It sounds like from your critique on the claws that you’re looking to have everything do everything. Don’t throw claws at “big armor or high wound targets”, blend their chaff. Use the WG to hunt down big stuff, Stormshield/melta or plasma is really cheap now.

 

Yea scouts stink atm everyone knows it, the horse is dead.

[Yoyo ninja]

I have had some luck sending my claws after buffing characters, MEQ or less. They throw enough dice to force the wounds through. And if you put a thunder hammer or power fist in there then they really go to town on stuff.

 

Last game they ate a (poorly placed) farseer on a jet bike and earned themselves some glory. Before being gunned down by two full squads of gardians

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ Von Trap, I'll reply to you later.

 

Well last weekend was my first Post CA 2018 game, unfortunately instead of fighting Orks, I ended up fighting Genesetealer Cults instead. Wasn't quite drowned in troops, but it was really scary to face at least 2 big blobs of 20 man monsters right in your face (Hybrid acolytes with rock saws which are essential chainfists without the -1 to hit and purestrain Genestealers,

 

I didn't have a lot of anit horde weapons, mainly 4 missile launchers split in 2 squads, but thankfully the missiles with the Chooser of the Slain strategem killed a fair bit of infiltrators. For my survival, I fed them my rhinos and my blood claws to survive. Then counter charged them with my Wulfen Dreadnought.

 

Had 3 psykers so a lot of smiting going on as well.

 

Overall, my MSU became deadlier because now they all of cheap power fists and with the savings, can afford wolf claws.

 

Sadly the game was not in my favor as it was Dominate and Destroy, he was camping on 5 objectives while I sat on 1 objective each turn, so by Turn 3, the score was 19 vs 13. But I think if the game dragged on, I would have dominated by killing his remaining units, which were only neophytes, and hunt down his warlord. But since my opponent insisted on stopping rather than continuing, he concededed to me. this didn't sit well for me, so I declare it a draw for my own record since the coward would rather eat dinner than continue the game. I offered to wait until after the game but he insisted on stopping. 

 

Not the best game to have to end 2018, but I tested myself against a multi charge army and came out with more than half of my army still intact.

 

Fenris Hjolda!

 

PS: Guys, what is up with the upload image? It keeps saying not allowed to use image extension even after I upload into my album and try to link the image to here,

[Bartali]

To the well put replies to my post.

 

How then, might we proceed to show or teach GW, if ever, that there's a problem? It's a huge change, and if no other army gets the same treatment, there'd be a very possible, "We're out," from a pretty sizable portion of the current player base.

 

I get there's an issue. It's the solution that's the elusive and hard part...

 

The problem is that GW are only on the first step of refreshing the marine line. Intercessors are the new base line

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

 

 

To the well put replies to my post.

 

How then, might we proceed to show or teach GW, if ever, that there's a problem? It's a huge change, and if no other army gets the same treatment, there'd be a very possible, "We're out," from a pretty sizable portion of the current player base.

 

I get there's an issue. It's the solution that's the elusive and hard part...

The problem is that GW are only on the first step of refreshing the marine line. Intercessors are the new base line

While I agree with you that the intercessors are the new baseline, that should still lower the cost of the basic PA squad. For 20 points more, you double the wounds on an identical frame and the gun is better. If there was a piece of wargear that did that we would take it every time. I actually think intercessors are properly costed in relation to guardsmen, but the basic power armor marine struggles to keep up.

[NatBrannigan]

I'm not sure GW wants people to enjoy using old school power armoured marines, hence the lack of point drop. I knew it was coming but didn't think the push would be quite as blatant!

 

Also, on the Guard Infantry are overpowered issue, I play SW and Guard and while I don't disagree entirely they're not as good as all that. For me the main issue is highlighted above. Someone saying they don't have many anti-horde weapons so they struggled against a horde. Well.... Isn't that kind of the point? Take a few more Heavy Bolters and those Guard Infantry just disappear.

 

Comparing them to regular marines isn't great because regular marines seem to be poor compared to everything at the moment!

[Karhedron]

Poor old Tactical Marines really are suffering. Scouts are cheaper and give better board control. Intercessors make much better objective holders. The only thing they have going for them is an extra source of heavy weapons and that is largely to ensure continued access to Flakk and Hellfire stratagems if your Devastators die.

 

Grey Hunters fair better with Chainswords and the ability to double-down on special weapons. They work better than Tacs in an aggressive mid-field role and I am happy to continue fielding mine. Whilst they didn't get a points drop in CA, the specials and combi-weapons did and since I normally run one of each per squad, this is effectively the same as a 1pt drop per Grey Hunter so I am perfectly happy.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Honestly I find a large part of the imbalance with more elite armies like marines is the lesser access to cp. Guard can fill a brigade for like 600 points and honestly the 3 company commanders, 6 infantry squads, and 3 heavy weapons teams make a pretty stellar backfield line. And the 3 sentinals aren't completely useless either. Meanwhile for a thousand points space wolves could do something similar but you end up taking 3 iron priest, 6 grey hunter squads, 3 squads of survivors, 3 squads of fenrisian wolves and 3 whirlwinds. This is by far a less potent backfield, and really doesn't do much at the front. This to me is the core problem of the way CP is generated, but the cheapness of guard units on the whole is a major factor. My personal feeling is that CP generation needs to be addressed differently. Or more elite armies should get better stratagems for cheaper and CP should be restricted to the faction generating it.

 

That said I agree that comparing units across codexes it a risky endeavor as codexes should, in theory, have way to mitigate the differences between the codexes. But ever using internal comparisons the base PA marine comes up short in every codex with access to them.

 

My thought on how to make it better is literally keep it all the same cost, but give all marine units 2 wounds and give terminator equivalent a 5+ fnp to compensate.

[Guest Triszin]

Helfrost still needs a rework. having to roll a D6 on a wound to generate +1 mortal wound regardless of the amount of wounds on a model is just.... meh.

 

Perhaps, this. Roll a D6 on a unsaved wound. on a 6, treat the model as operating at the next lower tier if available.

 

THusly, Helfrost now becomes an anti vehicle/anti monster weapon. Could potentially knock a tank down to the next operations rank ( reducing movement, S, A and more).

 

 

also, fenrisian wolves need to become wargear options again. treat them like tau drones, give fenrisian wolves some ( protect the alpha) type rule where they get "savior protocols" for wolf lords and hq models.

[Karhedron]

This to me is the core problem of the way CP is generated, but the cheapness of guard units on the whole is a major factor. My personal feeling is that CP generation needs to be addressed differently. Or more elite armies should get better stratagems for cheaper and CP should be restricted to the faction generating it.

In a sense, more elite factions do get better stratagems as the stratagems they get buff more expensive and effective units. A great many armies have a 1CP stratagem to place a single unit in Reserve and bring it on anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" from enemy models. This stratagem is more effective if you use it to deliver a 300-point elite unit with all the trimmings than if you use it to deploy 50 points of chaff with lasguns.

 

I agree with your second point though about CPs belonging to the faction that generate them. Part of the problem with Imperial Soup is the Loyal32 turning up in every army to provide cheap bodies to hold objectives, 5CPs and a CP miner. These CPs are not spent on the cheap troops who generated them but on the expensive elite units that accompany them. The problem is that keeping track of several different pools of CPs would be a pain in play.

 

The simplest solution would be to only give the +3CP bonus for being battle forged to armies where all units fully match the keywords. This is a bit of a blunt instrument though and doesn't scale particularly well. I bet the Loyal32 would be a lot less common if the the +5CPs and miner came at the price of the CPs for being Battle Forged.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

 

This to me is the core problem of the way CP is generated, but the cheapness of guard units on the whole is a major factor. My personal feeling is that CP generation needs to be addressed differently. Or more elite armies should get better stratagems for cheaper and CP should be restricted to the faction generating it.

In a sense, more elite factions do get better stratagems as the stratagems they get buff more expensive and effective units. A great many armies have a 1CP stratagem to place a single unit in Reserve and bring it on anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" from enemy models. This stratagem is more effective if you use it to deliver a 300-point elite unit with all the trimmings than if you use it to deploy 50 points of chaff with lasguns.

 

I agree with your second point though about CPs belonging to the faction that generate them. Part of the problem with Imperial Soup is the Loyal32 turning up in every army to provide cheap bodies to hold objectives, 5CPs and a CP miner. These CPs are not spent on the cheap troops who generated them but on the expensive elite units that accompany them. The problem is that keeping track of several different pools of CPs would be a pain in play.

 

The simplest solution would be to only give the +3CP bonus for being battle forged to armies where all units fully match the keywords. This is a bit of a blunt instrument though and doesn't scale particularly well. I bet the Loyal32 would be a lot less common if the the +5CPs and miner came at the price of the CPs for being Battle Forged.

You mymay be correct there, but if your army can only generate 10 CP in a regular list those stratagems have alot less impact then if you can generate 20 co in your army. And let's not forget that guard has plenty of units worth spending cp on. I believe that gw didnt take into account elites armies inability to generate cp when setting the cost of strategems.

 

I do like your solution to the soup issue though to make it effective the +3 would need to be higher imho. After all the 180 point loyal 32 gets you +2 cp even with that penalty.

 

My idea for CP fix is also simple, make it based on the percentage of points a faction is part of your army. Whichever faction has the highest percentage of points in your army those are the only detachments that generate cp. This removes loyal 32 without hurting mono or mainly guard players.

[PeteySödes]

Keep in mind orders, which lets be real, are basically free strats this edition.

[lonewolf81]

I was reading chapter approved and i saw that terminators with combi plasma / stormshield are 3 points more than a hellblaster with the plasma incinerator. They get a 2+/3++, free deep strike (no cp required to get in rapid fire range) and you can add 1-2 powerfists to combo them with wulfen's reroll charges. I ll give the following unit a go

 

5x termies

 

3xcombi plasma/ stormshield

 

2xcombi plasma / powerfist (one of the is sergeant with 3 attacks)

 

PS You can also fire both combi plasma profiles with keen senses for 20 shots ( 10 plasma + 10 bolters) in rapid fire range

[Nadir]

Niceone Lonewolf! :)

[Karhedron]

The other one that caught my eye was the power Fist and Storm Shield combo. These are a lot cheaper than Hammernators and hit for D3 damage instead of a flat 3. Given that you can almost get 2 Fists for the price of a Hammer now, it might be worth it. We can easily get right-handed power fists by taking a lightning claw and trimming off the claw blades. 34 points each is pretty cheap for what you get.

[Bulwyf]

I think chainfist and storm shield is worth a look as well. It is cheaper than a TH and isn't bad. It was really overpriced before but now it is worth looking at.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I think chainfist and storm shield is worth a look as well. It is cheaper than a TH and isn't bad. It was really overpriced before but now it is worth looking at.

 

Yep, for extra 2 points over fist, we get AP-4 and fixed 2 damage, which I'll take over D3 damage any day.

 

It's really strange, but I think Frost Weaponry has become a little points inefficient compared to the new Fist and Chainfist cost. Wolf Claws now cost more than powerfist in exchange for reroll to wound, which isn't bad I guess.

 

In the end, I think it's all in how well you think you can reroll your D3 damage. If you like D3 damage, then the new relic and cheaper fists are for you. But for me, I more emphasize reroll to wounds to supplement our very good hits now.