Chapter Approved feedback on Space wolves so far

[lonewolf81]

Power fists have also the double strength which can deal with monsters/vehicles, making it better than the claw for me. Frost weapons were untouched like all our other special things like characters ,and units. So stupid if you ask me :(

[PeteySödes]

Power fists have also the double strength which can deal with monsters/vehicles, making it better than the claw for me. Frost weapons were untouched like all our other special things like characters ,and units. So stupid if you ask me

 

For sure, hunters unleashed inadvertently nerfed frost weapons with the +1 to hit oddly. I still think there's a potential use case for frost swords on Twolf cavalry since they have WS3+ but by and large the things that can take frost weapons are already WS2+ so are better served by the now even cheaper classic "unwieldy" weapons.

[Kallas]

Frost Swords are ok, but they're still pricey at 7pts each. Frost Axes are basically invalidated by Power Fists, of course. Wolf Claws are solid weapons for chewing through infantry, even if they are expensive.

 

Honestly, SW unique weapons do need a second look, post-CA. I get why some Codexes weren't included in CA balancing, but it's still leaves a bad taste.

[Armchairarbiter]

So I have a couple opinions and additions to add.

 

1) CA 2018 won’t see a lot of changes for wolves, as has been discussed in this thread, due to the codex dropping so close to CA release. I believe they stated this somewhere. Knights and others fall into this as well. They didn’t make CA in November.

 

In the next big FAQ I believe wolves and knights and whatever else came out.. Orks? And GSC I guess will get another points overview. Will prob clarify thunder cav shields.

 

2) with the continued points decreases for primaris marines I think we need to face facts and realize the regular guys are going in the bin. Primaris are more durable and better at killing hordes with the armor piercing. For a similar price. Expect the range to be updated and include melee units and fun new toys to push the disparity further. Personally I’m fine with it.

 

3) the biggest change in CA isn’t points, it’s the new missions. On that front I think this CA is AMAZING. The new first strike instead of first blood, being able to play beyond tabling, making it more objective focused I think is a good thing all around.

[PeteySödes]

2) with the continued points decreases for primaris marines I think we need to face facts and realize the regular guys are going in the bin. Primaris are more durable and better at killing hordes with the armor piercing. For a similar price. Expect the range to be updated and include melee units and fun new toys to push the disparity further. Personally I’m fine with it.

 

Mine won’t be going anywhere anytime soon. The only interesting way to use primaris is the crusaders detachment and we can’t use it. I suspect we’ll be the last to shift with the lowest primaris playerbase until we get something crazy. GH/BC are still way too useful.

[sturguard]

And when that days comes Petey, Ill be using all my Grey Hunters as counts as Primaris!

[NightHowler]

I’m with sturgard

[sturguard]

I understand the way the world works a bit (at 50 I would have hoped I learned something). I understand GW needs to make money. I understand they have to entice folks to buy models, however that may be, the beauty of the models, manipulating the rules, or doing a model refresh. I started with GW in 1988, I cant remember when I picked up my first marine, but it was a long time ago. Actually I think a treeman was the first model I painted. I have no problem with GW changing the face of the marines. However, I will be the first to point out, I have supported GW for almost 30 years, I have given them thousands of dollars in support, if not tens of thousands over those 30 years. Not many people can say that. Those models have given me lots of enjoyment, but not without a dash of frustration from GW over the years. Business aside, there is a right way and wrong way to go about things. I have little tolerance for folks that have the attitude of just deal with it- because again, I have supported GW longer than most ever will. My biggest gripe is not the money. Buying a few new squads of primaris marines is not the deal breaker. The deal breaker for me is I have worked on my SW for over 20 years. I was never a top painter, but I was decent enough. Now at 50, I can hardly paint anymore, my hands shake, I can't see any detail and about the only time of the day I could manage would be during direct sunlight hours- but guess what, I work then. My point is, GW can never give me back my prime hobby years. I spent all those on the GW models I have. If I want to tell my opponent, hey those arent 5 grey hunters with bolters, they are 5 intercessors with 5 bolt rifles, there really shouldnt be any problem. Now, if  I was saying my Grey Hunters were Reivers, well, now that's kind of a stretch. Honestly, I think GW should have equipped the Intercessors the same as Tac marines, and let people kind of port over that one model. The models are cool enough that most folks would still have purchased them. They could have then specialized with the reivers and other models. Anyhow, thats enough of a rant I guess, the biggest changes I noticed in CA was to all the primaris and obviously as stated by previous posters, I think we can all see the end of our old model line. A game as brutal as the current edition of 40k to pay just 4 pts more for an extra wound, and a longer ranged weapon is huge. I think that is where the balancing will come with Astartes. Lets say intercessors make their way to say 15 pts apiece and you have 2 wounds, now all of a sudden thats like having 8 pt marines. They wouldnt be broken as there are plenty of weapons that do multi wounds but they are at least that much more resilient to small arms fire and able to take objectives.

 

Sorry for the long post, I find as I get older, I get wordier as well.

[One Two Wolf]

Sturguard, I agree with every word (except that it's a rant, I don't think it is). I played decades ago and had a long break. A year or so ago I painted up some charcarodons to get the feel back and have since spent fairly big on a good SW force that I'm painting through.

 

I wonder about:

 

What happens to rhinos?

 

If termies get looked over (the only thing they have over intercessors is wargear and deep strike) what happens to land raiders?

 

How, lore wise, do all the lads get primaris'd, or heaven forbid, killed off?

 

40k is an amazing hobby, I love it, and wish I never had the break. I have 3000 points to mod and paint up and if just as I finish half is obsolete I'll be absolutely gutted. I see primaris as an overdue update to astartes but as you say, why not something closer to the original? They are A LOT easier to paint well and are better sized for the game - but so many gamers' decades of specialisation could easily be lost with just chapter 'upgrade' sprues becoming the norm. I hope (perhaps in vain) that there is always a place for the old guard, that maybe in 9th or 10th land raiders can take a mod to carry primaris, that something thoughtful happens to respect the value of our old and loved regular duders. I went back to my parents' place and churned through the attic to find my old boys and while they look hideous, I was so happy to have them back.

[sturguard]

One Two Wolf- see I think that's the point. We already have a primaris rhino and dread. Next year maybe a primaris terminator unit. I think the whole model range gradually changes over until all the models I grew up with are obsolete. GW has learned through their fantasy side that making them obsolete over night is a bad idea. But they know time is on their side, the older players like us will gradually dwindle and eventually no one will even know what a non primaris land raider even looks like.

 

I am building a list for a game tomorrow and noticed that primaris rune priests and wolf priests are only 5 points more than the originals, for those 5 pts you get +1 attack, +1 wound, thats a pretty good deal. Granted you get as many equipment options, but for the wolf priest and rune priest, its about their powers not what weapon you are equipping.

[Armchairarbiter]

And when that days comes Petey, Ill be using all my Grey Hunters as counts as Primaris!

 

That's fine, quite frankly I would let anyone I am playing with do that. I just think a lot of Marine players are being silly about this. True scale marines have been a request for yyeeaarrss. I believe they're also trying to simplify the marine based rules line. I think GW is just currently trying to straddling that line and the new edition/other armies line. With an entire new edition, they had to release stuff for other armies as well. So the primaris stuff will likely be in phases. Phase 1 obviously being your standard primaris marine. Phase 2 will likely flesh out the line. Phase 3 would, in my mind, be for specialized primaris units for the non-codex compliant factions. 

 

My only issue is by straddling that line they've divided the marine line... Primaris should be able to fit into Rhinos and such. I assume they will change that once the line is fleshed out... or who knows, maybe there is an updated rhino kit incoming? Lol 

 

I have been around long enough to know model lines will be changed/replaced and usually it is for the better. (hormogaunts, ork trukks and buggies, dark eldar, sisters, the old space marine tanks, etc, etc). 

 

I am also already kind of making this transition. I have my main objective holders as my intercessors and am converting my grey hunters into wolf guard units, basically veterans to help teach them new primaris the wolf ways. It's working out nicely so far. 

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Honestly I see the fact that primaris cant use transports as a reason to believe that regular marines aren't going anywhere, at least for some time. There are so many models, some new some extremely iconic that would be invalidated by this, not just the base marine. I dont think they would pull land raiders and rhinos an stormravens/wolves/claws these are iconic models that are one and the same with 40k. Plus in the lore they would have to do a full AOS reboot to remove these things as they are entrenched. I feel like I if that was the plan then the would have done it with 8th. Honestly I think ultimately we will get upscaled PA like chaos has been getting, just down the line. And in that moment no reason you can't keep using the old stuff just like you can use your old metal beakie marines if you like. Maybe a base swap to keep in line with proper rules but that's about it as far a any change you would need to make. GW has been adamant that they aren't crushing plastic marines and honestly I don't see anything more than panic created by the internet to indicate otherwise.

 

As to why they didn't adjust the PA cost, I see 2 possible reasons. 1) I think for some reason they felt reducing the cost of the wargear would be sufficient to reduce the points of a squad or 2) and perhaps a bit more likely, marketing stepped in and said we need to keep primaris desirable so dont change regular marines yet. Or I guess 3) they are out of touch with how to balance the space marine range and are struggling to do so.

 

I am by no means a GW apologist, but i am willing to take their word that base PA marines wont just vanish anytime soon. And like you all said if that day does come in the future we can just whip out the old marines and say look primaris.

[Karhedron]

I am starting to think that the biggest changein CA2018 may well be the new missions. The changes look innocuous enough but the game actually plays quite differently. Going first is no longer the advantage it was as points are scored at the end of each battle round rather than the end of each player turn. This means the player who is going 2nd can react to every move the 1st player makes. Sure IG have plenty of big guns to take advantage of a 1st turn of shooting but their squads are fragile and prone to being hosed off objectives before they can score VPs by a canny opponent.

Add to this, there are some missions where only Troop units can score. Let that sink in for a moment. Knight armies will auto-lose these missions unless they have brough allied help. Many SW players have complained that fighting Knights with a pure SW force is an uphill battle. That may be true but now if you can wipe out the Loyal32, the Knight player cannot win on certain missions, even if he tries to table you.

Exact victory conditions now vary from mission to mission (the rule about only Troops scoring only applies to some scenarios). But if you randomly generate missions (and I strongly encourage it) a lot of power builds struggle. Elite-heavy armies can no longer win by tabling the opponent. This was driven home to me in dramatic fashion in a game yesterday (The Four Pillars). I lost by the end of turn 2, despite only losing 2 smallish packs of Grey Hunters. My opponent was ahead on VPs (thanks to killing a Cyberwolf and scoring First Strike) and had more Troop units than me. Despite being in a good position, it was mathematically impossible for me to overtake him on VPs by the end of the game.

This shift is going to place an emphasis on Troop units who can take and hold objectives. Our Grey Hunters are already pretty good in this regard and I can see a bigger role for Intercessors in the future too with their enhanced durability. Wulfen packs and Flyers are no longer going to be the game winners and I am going to think twice about using my Grey Hunters as a screen to protect my more expensive Long Fangs and Hellblasters if it is a mission where those Heavy units cannot actually score.

I think that dual Battalion is going to be the winning formula in future and I will be experimenting with 4 Grey Hunter plasma packs and 2 Intercessor packs I think.

If you haven't give then CA2018 missions a thorough try-out yet, I recommend them. The game plays quite differently!

[Bulwyf]

I agree the CA18 missions play out differently. After playing a few games and watching about two dozen batreps online...I don't like it. The absurdity of me of losing a game even if you table the opponent is too much. The suspension of disbelief can only take so much.

 

The rules in CA18 heavily, heavily favor horde armies. All you have to do is flood troops to hold objectives. That's it. Literally, that's it. You can have a much better army than the other guy and blow him off the table. And guess what? You can still lose to turn 2 because you can't catch them in points. I have seen it happen.

 

I like the other changes in CA18 with deployment and lessening the advantage of going first. But still losing even if you table the opponent? Naw fam. I strongly dislike that. I only play mono armies so with Space Wolves I don't have cheap troop options to toss on objectives.

[PeteySödes]

I agree the CA18 missions play out differently. After playing a few games and watching about two dozen batreps online...I don't like it. The absurdity of me of losing a game even if you table the opponent is too much. The suspension of disbelief can only take so much

If you don’t play the mission you deserve to lose IMO.

[Bulwyf]

 

I agree the CA18 missions play out differently. After playing a few games and watching about two dozen batreps online...I don't like it. The absurdity of me of losing a game even if you table the opponent is too much. The suspension of disbelief can only take so much

If you don’t play the mission you deserve to lose IMO.

 

 

Read the rest of my post you quoted to see the problems with trying to play the mission when the missions heavily favor a style that Space Wolves can never play.

[PeteySödes]

 

 

I agree the CA18 missions play out differently. After playing a few games and watching about two dozen batreps online...I don't like it. The absurdity of me of losing a game even if you table the opponent is too much. The suspension of disbelief can only take so much

If you don’t play the mission you deserve to lose IMO.

 

 

Read the rest of my post you quoted to see the problems with trying to play the mission when the missions heavily favor a style that Space Wolves can never play.

 

 

I do it all the time.... Yea horde armies are a challenge but thats an issue with the army not the mission. I find the missions like that far nenifit me than the other guy. Im way more likely to play aggressive and be in danger of getting tabled in service to the obj.

 

Im not trying to be a blow hard but have you say "I don't have cheap troop options to toss on objectives" but have you tried it? Ive used min squads of BC/GH to hold off huge blobs all the time. Do they die? Almost always, but then i counter punch, or distract, or a bunch of other things we can do.

[Bulwyf]

 

 

 

I agree the CA18 missions play out differently. After playing a few games and watching about two dozen batreps online...I don't like it. The absurdity of me of losing a game even if you table the opponent is too much. The suspension of disbelief can only take so much

If you don’t play the mission you deserve to lose IMO.

 

 

Read the rest of my post you quoted to see the problems with trying to play the mission when the missions heavily favor a style that Space Wolves can never play.

 

 

I do it all the time.... Yea horde armies are a challenge but thats an issue with the army not the mission. I find the missions like that far nenifit me than the other guy. Im way more likely to play aggressive and be in danger of getting tabled in service to the obj.

 

Im not trying to be a blow hard but have you say "I don't have cheap troop options to toss on objectives" but have you tried it? Ive used min squads of BC/GH to hold off huge blobs all the time. Do they die? Almost always, but then i counter punch, or distract, or a bunch of other things we can do.

 

 

Guard, cultists, nids, orks. etc. all are cheaper than GH/BC. We don't even get the cheaper Scout option that other SM get because our scouts count as elite choices (which is fluffy) but get no benefits for being elite.

 

Fighting horde armies in 8th is already bad enough. When the missions themselves heavily favor them by removing tabling as an option and no kill points it means they have far more troops to squat on objectives than you can throw at them. All they have to do is simply eliminate your own troop options and then in some of the new CA18 missions you can't even score objective points because only troops can hold them. 

 

This is not just a problem for me in my own personal meta or my quality as a player. Watch batreps online. It is pretty consistent. Swamp the board with bodies and you win. It is just that simple. Even if you somehow get tabled so what? The other guy can't catch up on points before the game is over so you still win.

 

You may enjoy that but I do not.

[PeteySödes]

Alls I'm saying is a lot of marine players are just laying down and dying with a whole lot of complaining before they do. I prefer to get creative and its worked well for me.

[Bulwyf]

Alls I'm saying is a lot of marine players are just laying down and dying with a whole lot of complaining before they do. I prefer to get creative and its worked well for me.

 

I've never laid down in any game I've played in. If you are winning all your games from CA18 against horde armies with a pure SW list then you are the exception. I have won some games from CA18 but never had the mission rules work against you so blatantly before.

[Karhedron]

I have also never realised that I lost a game despite being in an apparently strong position before last night. However the mistake was mine in not paying more attention to the mission rules. Yes my opponent had more Troop units than I did but that was my choice, not the mission's. Also I made a mistake in employing my usual tactic of using my Hunters to screen my more valuable units. I failed to clock that my Hunters were my most valuable unit and protect them accordingly.

 

The new missions require slightly different army lists and play style but I think ultimately they will result in more rewarding games. A race between 2 armies to see which can kill the other fastest can get boring after a while. Missions that have objectives beyond simply wiping out the opponent have better long term potential IMHO. If you disagree then by all means, keep using the BRB missions.

[Kallas]

The new missions require slightly different army lists and play style but I think ultimately they will result in more rewarding games. A race between 2 armies to see which can kill the other fastest can get boring after a while. Missions that have objectives beyond simply wiping out the opponent have better long term potential IMHO. If you disagree then by all means, keep using the BRB missions.

So...ITC then? Very good mission structures that don't completely invalidate certain factions or play styles?