Thoughts on Tyranids after Chapter Approved - Nidz are back!

[antique_nova]

So, I was just looking through the nid codex for the billionth time (well I was looking through every single competitive combo, codex and faq for the nth time again), to see how the meta could change after this year's chapter approved plus the experience I've gathered from GTs this year to see if I could spot anything good and boy was was I in for a shock.

 

Nidz are back! And when I mean back, I mean they have a very strong potential to be number 1! Due to huge points drops in tyrannofexes, lictors and broodlords and I have my own list now, that not only beat my top 3 lists while going second, but may actually become top dog without using any other codexes or indexes or more than a single detachment at 1750 or 2000 pts. Which is insanely rare, but it's also easily one of the most expensive armies I would have ever gotten. XD

 

What do you guys think of nidz now with the new changes?

 

EDIT: Tyranids are a bit iffy, because I've discovered after various playtesting that they don't have enough juice to take the top 1 or 2 spots. Maybe the top 3 or 4, Since that's the case, I don't mind sharing what I've tried to do with the nidz.

 

1750 pts

 

1x Broodlord - [Warlord] [bio Artefact] Chameleonic Mutation: Your opponent must subtract 1 from all hit rolls for ranged weapons that target this model.

 

[Warlord] Trait: Mind Eater: Each time the Warlord slays an enemy CHARACTER in the Fight phase, choose a friendly <HIVE FLEET> unit within 3". At the end of the phase, that unit can move (and Advance if you wish) as if it was your Movement phase.

 

Spell: Smite/Catalyst

 

3x Lictors - 3x Flesh Hooks - 3x Rending Claws - 3x Scything Talons 

 

10x Genestealer - 10x Scything Talons

 

10x Genestealer - 7x Rending Claws - 3x Scything Talons

 

20x Genestealer - 15x Rending Claws - 5x Scything Talons

 

Spearhead Detachment - Jormungandr 

 

1x Tyranid Prime - 1x Boneswords - 1x Lashwhip & Bonesword - 74 pts

 

1x Venomthropes - 1x Toxic Lashes

 

6x Hive Guard - 6x Impaler Cannon

 

3x Hive Guard - 3x Impaler Cannon

 

3x Tyrannofex - 3x Acid Maw - 3x Stinger Spores - 552 pts

 

The idea is that I can move any genestealer unit 18- 20" per turn before charges with one stratagem. Since they normally move 8 and can roll 3D6 to determine the highest advance and then use the [sTRATAGEM] Opportunistic Advance to double it's roll, which will most likely be a 5 or 6. You could give them adrenal glands but I don't bother, but if I were to, then I'd take them with scything talons. I'd use the [sTRATAGEM] Adrenaline Surge to fight twice and have them finish off said engaged unit, before using [sTRATAGEM] Overrun to jump further ahead to where ever I need them. Also, if they have some weak characters lying around, then I'd use my warlord to take full advantage of that.

 

The reason for the acid maw Tyrannofexes is for those pesky hemlock wraithfighters as they can be a nightmare to deal with, especially nidz as they have a heavy reliance on monstrous units. With them, I can get 21 auto hits per turn and when they stand still, that's 42 auto hits per turn which is nuts! I then have genestealers ramming down their throats as another threat and the hive guard shooting twice per turn (36 shots per turn = 24 hits per turn) as another big threat.

 

The lictors are to deter DMC tzaangors and other deep striking elements, while capping objectives and killing off ranger/scout units.

 

This list I thought might work, but there are some pretty big weaknesses in it that I just couldn't overcome. Even when I tried 3 units of 6 hive guard or spammed termagaunts or hormagaunts or more genestealers. If I had a swarmlord, then I could move 1 genestealer unit an average minimum of 33-35" per turn, before declaring any charges, which is like having a Dark Matter Crystal every turn. Simply nuts! And you only need to spent 1 stratagem that costs 1CP per turn to do this. However, it relies too much on a swarmlord which I could easily kill in one turn with any of my top 3 lists if I wanted to, which I would.

 

I even tried putting in two units of forgeworld spores that can deploy mid table before the fight begins (free of charge, although it costs 54 points per smallest unit). Which would help to solve the anti-deep strike problem very well.

 

In the end, my conclusion is that while the nidz have benefited a lot from the CA this year, it's not enough to hit the top 3 reliably. Not even with the new missions as they lack the punch to do so.

 

What I'd like to see with new nidz changes is the swarm of flies stratagem that the Death Guard use to shield a particular unit. If we could do that to a hive guard unit so that they can't be targeted if they're not the closest enemy unit, then that would be golden! I'd say that should cost 2 CP at most.

 

I also want to see carnifexes dedicated to killing swarms of infantry, because they seem to be able to do everything else and they seem like a perfect unit to do so. Troops should be terrified of surrounding a carnifex and with good reason. The STONE CRUSHER CARNIFEX BROOD with the bio-flail in forgeworld is heading in the right direction with this, but I'd like to see it get a +1 to hit on the charge like the other normal carnifexes in the main codex. I want to see the same for Hive Tyrants, because right now they're far too easy to bog down and deal with. They need a similar stat weapons to that of the titanic feat of the Imperial knights. Say 2x hits for each attack they dedicate. (knights currently get x3. So some knights can crank out 15-18 attacks per turn and that's before the fight twice stratagem).

 

I want to see Tyranidz being able to get into combat MUCH MUCH faster, because they're purely bioengineered for war! They should be faster than Eldar! So, I want to see them ALL have a +3" to their dice rolls when charging. I mean you should be scared :cussless when swarms of tyranids are charging you and not because they'll tie you up, but they're swarm you so fast, that eventually they'll swarm and gobble you up with pure numbers! The current codex doesn't reflect this very well.

 

I also want to see better ways for tyranid units from the codex to be able to take out flying units, because they really suck at it right now. Since they can barely protect their monstrous creatures. I mean people use to fear the tyranids, because of what they could do. Now, not so much...

 

Also, I advise that anyone considering competitive tyranid armies at about 1750 pts. You should be avoiding monstrous creatures as they're too much of a points sink and easily killed. Plus they don't do that much considering how much they cost and the new missions seem to punish gun line armies severely. More so than before.

[tychobi]

Love the enthusiasm! Confused as to how nids deal with the tournament "gatekeeper" list of castellan with guard/blood angel support. Is the plan to get in a gunfight with rupture cannon from the tfexs? That castellan will blast 2 tfex a round no sweat and with 100ish guardsmen swarming about it will be very hard to get to.

[Xenith]

Is there a review of the CA changes? I don't think it's changed to your much other than making some borderline unusable units cheaper.

 

Apparently the points were changed before the Knights impact on the meta was realised. I'd expect CA 2019 so penalise Codex Knights hard.

[Kallas]

Full list of changes: https://www.reddit.com/r/Tyranids/comments/a40wjw/tyranid_point_changes_in_chapter_approved/

 

Some pretty substantially drops, notably the Swarmlord, Broodlords, and Tyrannofexes.

[antique_nova]

Love the enthusiasm! Confused as to how nids deal with the tournament "gatekeeper" list of castellan with guard/blood angel support. Is the plan to get in a gunfight with rupture cannon from the tfexs? That castellan will blast 2 tfex a round no sweat and with 100ish guardsmen swarming about it will be very hard to get to.

Right now, your best bet is to spam termagaunts with devourers (240 pts) and have them shoot twice (that's 180 shots. 90 hits. 45 wounds.) or use the fleshborers twice (120 pts) with the +1 to wound stratagem (60 shots. 30 hits. 25 wounds.).

 

At first I thought in all honesty, you'd probably better with fleshborer spam with crud loads of hormagaunts and crud loads of tyrant guards with crushing claws + 1 normal hive tyrant and some psykers to keep everyone from going into instinctive behaviour mode. So let`s look at that first.

 

In 1750 pts that's.

 

2x Battalion Detachments

90x Termagaunts with fleshborers

90x Hormagaunts with scything talons

1x Hive Tyrant with the bare minimum (anti-tank stuff)

3x Neurothropes

12x Tyrant Guard with rending claws and crushing claws.

 

More or less 1750 pts and you have 13 command points to play with. You'll probably be spamming that double your advance (1CP per turn), that move again and can't do anything (overdrive 1CP per turn) and then BAM (You'll start using 3CP a turn to fight twice with your tyrant guards).

 

The idea is to goad the enemy into killing the hive tyrant so that your tyrant guards get into a frenzy. Which 12 guards nearby, that's +12 attacks. Or you could just grab a tyranid prime instead and 2 more tyrant guards which is only 6 more at (deleted this part and forgot how it ends). The hive tyrants are crap right now, because they have too few attacks).

 

Maybe you don't even need even two battalion detachments, but you could just do this instead.

 

1x Hive Tyrant with the bare minimum (anti-tank stuff)

1x Neurothrope

80x Termagaunts with fleshborers

18x Ripper swarms

6x Meiotic spores

1x Lictor (you need someone to cap your home objective)

18x Tyrant Guard with rending claws and crushing claws.

 

The spores could be placed up front to deter first turn charges like Da Boyz Jump or the Dark Matter crystal of the Thousand Sons and if you're facing a deep striking detachment that wants to hit your back lines, then simply keep your lictor and two units of spores at the back to cover an area of 72 inches wide by 18 inches long (you can cover your backfield almost entirely with your swarms, hq and spores as they hold further back as your gaunts and tyranid guard chomp upwards.

 

When facing the gatekeeper army you mentioned. The ripper swarms and termagaunts should be more than enough to prevent any deep strikes to your back line. Failing that, you can trade a few termagaunts for some spores and a lictor to keep your back line impassible. The enemy then has to chew through 90 fearless gaunts (which they can't do in one turn) before they can rip into your tyrant guard.

 

I can pretty much guarantee that you won't lose more than 6 tyrant guards before they get into close combat (you can also use the FNP +5 spell to keep them alive) as you'll be using [SPELL] Onslaught + [sTRATAGEM] Opportunistic Advanceto move your tyrant guard about 17-19" in one turn before any charges are made. Let's also not forget about overdrive. To make it 29-35" minimum in just one turn! (That's nuts). I believe that [sTRATAGEM] Opportunistic Advance will work twice in one turn (when you use before using overdrive and during overdrive). Because the wording is as follows.

 

"Use this Stratagem in your Movement phase when you roll the dice for an Advancing KRAKEN unit (other than a unit that can FLY). You can double the number you roll and add that total to their Move characteristic for that Movement phase, rather than following the normal rules for Advancing."

 

I believe it works, because it specifically says "your movement phase", so any time you advance with a Kraken unit you can use this. Now, the wording is only for a single kraken unit I believe, since it says for "an advancing kraken unit" and not "any advancing kraken unit", which is fine, because you only need to do it for one tyrant guard unit. Now here comes the real sneaky . You just zip that tyrant guard unit into a building where the imperial knight can't touch them and just let him shoot it, because he will. Also, no other unit will be able to charge you, because chances are they won't be able to fit onto the upper floors of said building! (I'm surprised that tyrant guard are classed as infantry and not monstrous creatures, but they're small enough!)

 

Also, I highly doubt that anyone will want to mess with a unit of 6x Tyrant Guards with crushing claws, because that's 18x S10 AP3 DD3 attacks that are hitting on 4s and you can use the [sTRATAGEM] Adrenaline Surge to fight twice. So now that's most likely 36x S10 AP3 DD3 attacks that are hitting on 4s. Most units will find it difficult to stop that. Because you've also got 90 termagaunts, 27 ripper swarms and 12 more tyrant guard heading their way that will most likely charge them in turn 2.

 

You should do well with this as the tyrant guard are pretty tough with 3 wounds piece at T5 with +3 saves and you have 18 of them. That's 54 wounds at T5 and +3 saves.

 

However, if you're worried that your enemy will just focus everything on the tyrant guard and ignore everything else, then you could use the two list variants below, so that they will have a hard time choosing.

 

Option 1

Battalion detachment - Kraken - 8 CP - 1748 pts

 

2x Neurothropes

58x Genestealers

6x Meiotic spores

1x Lictor (you need someone to cap your home objective)

18x Tyrant Guard with rending claws and crushing claws.

 

Option 2

Battalion detachment - Kraken - 8 CP - 1742 pts

 

2x Broodlords

49x Genestealers

6x Meiotic spores

1x Lictor (you need someone to cap your home objective)

18x Tyrant Guard with rending claws and crushing claws.

 

Actually, i think I've done pretty well with these. As I can see them zipping up any building in no time by turn 2 and tearing basically anything and everything to pieces that they touch. Both tanks and infantry. Plus, it's not all that obvious as to what you should shoot first. However, you will get your ass kicked by a hemlock wraithfighter army as they'll pretty much wipe out all your tyrant guards by their turn 3. Because tyranids just don't have a real answer to them. As the no matter what you bring, 18 hive guard or tyrant guard, the hemlocks will always focus on them and you'll normally have to hit them on 5s, but eldar player will most likely destroy on unit of hive guard first, then make your your 2nd hive guard unit hit on 6s, which the second unit hits on 5s against a different hemlock. Then they'll crush your 2nd hive guard unit 2nd turn and force your remaining hive guard unit to hit on 6s with the stratagem and there's literally nothing you can do about it, because it's 600 eldar points vs 864 pts minimum. The Eldar win just by engaging you.

 

However, I've only just reread the codex (again) and discovered that the swarmlord is classified as a hive tyrant (doh! how did I miss that! xd). So, if you wanted a guaranteed first turn charge with say genestealers or hormagaunts who could get about a 32" movement on average before any charges are declared, then I'd use the list below.

 

 

Option 3

Battalion detachment - Kraken - 8 CP - 1747 pts

 

1x Swarmlord

1x Neurothrope

81x Hormagaunts

6x Meiotic spores

1x Lictor (you need someone to cap your home objective)

18x Tyrant Guard with rending claws and crushing claws.

 

Or if you think 18 Tyrant Guards are too much, then how about.

 

 

Option 4

Battalion detachment - Kraken - 8 CP - 1743 pts

 

1x Swarmlord

1x Broodlord

60x Termagaunts with fleshborers (shoot one unit twice and with +1 to wound to mow down enemy infantry which is on average 29 wounds on T3 eldar unit at 12 inches! Say Dark Reapers! Hint* Hint*)

41x Genestealers (1x11 & 2x15)

6x Meiotic spores

1x Lictor (you need someone to cap your home objective)

12x Tyrant Guard with rending claws and crushing claws. (2x6 once to fight and one to protect and when you don't need to protect him, send them all into combat)

 

Or if you want a crap ton more genestealers,

 

Option 5

Battalion detachment - Kraken - 8 CP - 1745 pts

 

1x Swarmlord

1x Broodlord

65x Genestealers (say 1x25 & 1x20 & 2x10 or 2x20 & 1x15 & 1x10)

6x Meiotic spores

1x Lictor (you need someone to cap your home objective)

12x Tyrant Guard with rending claws and crushing claws.

 

Actually. Now that I think about it. Tyranids have a pretty good chance against even Eldar with these lists.

[Kallas]

antique_nova - with reference to Opportunistic Advance, the FAQ covers this.

 

Basically, you only roll once for the Advance roll in any given phase. So in your Movement Phase you'd roll and add it to your movement, and then if you use Metabolic Overdrive you'd use the previously modified movement value; you wouldn't roll again, and you'd keep the doubled result.

 

If you were to use the Swarmlord's Hive Commander, however, you would roll again but you would be eligible to use Opportunistic Advance again, as it is a different phase (covered in the FAQ too).

[antique_nova]

EDIT: Holy crap! I just checked the FAQ and it specifically talks about this! Hot damn! I would love to abuse the absolute spore out of this!

 

However, it's not enough to beat my no.1 list. Even if it gets 1st turn. The list in the OP couldn't beat it either, but what one of the option lists has done is become my no.2 list with just one detachment and yes it used some forgeworld units, but that's still bloody impressive! :P

[Finkmilkana]

I honestly don’t understand the love for Tyrant guard in this thread. They just seem like far worse and slow Guard Sentinel Powerlifter (that can also intercept wounds for a model that has more wounds per point than they do) to me, and you certainly don’t see powerlifter spammed anywhere. They also for the most part seem worse than for example termite assault drills. What am I missing that makes them so great for nids that they can carry whole lists?

[Arson Fire]

I honestly don’t understand the love for Tyrant guard in this thread. They just seem like far worse and slow Guard Sentinel Powerlifter (that can also intercept wounds for a model that has more wounds per point than they do) to me, and you certainly don’t see powerlifter spammed anywhere. They also for the most part seem worse than for example termite assault drills. What am I missing that makes them so great for nids that they can carry whole lists?

TBH I don't really like them much either.

The appeal as far as I can see, is that they're the only tyranid that can take high strength melee weapons that isn't a monstrous creature (and hence, can be taken in decent quantities).

 

Personally, I start looking in the direction of genestealer cult allies to fill that particular hole.

[antique_nova]

They aren't meant to carry entire lists, but are a vital part of the list, because they protect the stormlord and beat down vehicles for you.

 

They are also points per damage wise, the most cost efficient tyranid models against T7 and especially T8 units. 

 

Hive Tyrants, stormlords, carnifexes, mawlocs, trygons and zonathropes got nothing on the tyrant and hive guards.

 

So, let's compare all variants of the hive guard vs the tyrant guard on an average basis and the assumption is that you always go second, because to be the best, you need to be beat the most difficult odds and going second is normally a disadvantage for most armies. Especially top tier ones, considering that NO reserves can arrive until turn 2 now.

 

6x Tyrant Guard with crushing claws and rending claws - 294

Can defend Swarmlord? - Yes

Attacks per turn - 18

Hits per turn - 9

Wounds per turn Vs T7 & T8 - 6

 

Against vehicle or monstrous creature units without invul saves against melee attacks like most vehicles, Imperial Knights, the AP3 value will force them to save on 6s. Chances are. Only one will be saved. So that's 5 wounds that go through for an average damage of 10! Fight twice and that's 20 damage! Which is easily worth waiting until turn 2 to charge to get your tyrant guards there. Also, this is the most effective method against slipperly targets like Eldar fire prisms, wave serpents etc. Tau will also be wary and so will their battlesuits. Against units with an invul save against melee attacks this will be less cost effective, but not by much since there is only a 1 or 2 wound difference on average. However, it's extremely rare to find T7 units with invul saves against melee attacks. Plus those kind of units are rarely deploy and rarely effective enough in close combat to really hurt the tyrant guard before they can do their business. Also, there is a new eternal war mission that negates invul saves in a large area. So, even more points for the tyrant guard, since they don't have invul saves. So, those T7 units with invul saves against melee attacks will be far more wary of this unit once they realise what it can and will do.

 

Having a +3 SV also has a huge difference compared to +4 Svs, because if they hide in buildings, that's a +5 Sv against AP3 guns. Where as if you have +4 Svs like Hive Guard, you might as well not roll the dice. Especially in the open, where your save is negated completely.

 

Also, with the [sTRATAGEM] Opportunistic Advance, the Swarmlord's Hive Commander and the [sPELL] Onslaught, the Tyrant Guard have an effective average moment range of 34" before the charge if you roll 5s for advancing with 3 dice each time or 38" if you roll 6s each time with 3 dice for the advancing. That is insane! Especially with the average charge roll of 7, your effective charge range for the Tyrant Guard are between 41" to 45". Likely seriously! And what's best about this? It only needs [sPELL] Catalyst (so that it can assault in the turn that it advances) that costs 6WC to cast with a range of 18" on a unit that can move and advance about 15-16" on average, so it has an effective cast range of 34-35" per turn to easily keep up with those speedy tyrants (pun intended) and you only need to spend 1 CP per turn to do this too! On average, a single fight phase is worth almost 2 shooting phases of your hive guard.

 

These guys will also reliably wipe out a full unit of Necron destroyers within 41" with [sTRATAGEM] Adrenaline Surge in a single turn. No Hive Guard unit can boast that, even if they shoot twice. Sure it costs 5CP to do so, but your opponent will never forget that once you've done it to them and you have more 3 CP to zip another unit around again or for any other unit to fight twice again!

 

6x Hive Guard with impaler cannons - 288 pts

Can defend Swarmlord? - No

Attacks per turn - 12

Hits per turn - 8

Wounds per turn Vs T7 - 5

Wounds per turn Vs T8 - 4

 

Against Imperial knight units, they will most likely use a +1 invul save modifier. Saving half of your shots. So, even if you use the shoot twice stratagem, you'll probably only get 4 wounds through and 8 damage on average. But if you do that, you better have at least 2 units of 6 of these, because one unit will get shot down first turn. Also, consider this against Dark Reapers, you will be out of range against them as they will just hole up in the far corners and yes you can move and shoot, but that means exposing yourself to LOS and you have to cast a spell on one unit to move and shoot without penalty, but knowing eldar they will force you to shoot with minus modifiers.

 

6x Hive Guard with Shock Cannons - 234

Can defend Swarmlord? - No

Attacks per turn - 12

Hits per turn - 8

Wounds per turn Vs T7 - 4

Wounds per turn Vs T8 - 3 (+4 MW against vehicles)

 

The cheapest of the bunch by about 50-60 points which is a lot! However, even though they have an effective range of 30" with the move. Their advantage dies once pitted against non-vehicle units. No amount of points saving will do them justice. Also, consider this, most of their damage will be saved due to their weak AP1 shots. So, in reality, you'll only get 1, maybe 2 shots through against vehicles. Meaning a 6-8 damage wound count on average at 30". Against eldar armies, you'll be laughed at since you'll never be able to hit anything and will even be ignored, because of how worthless you are. Even with the shoot twice stratagem. They will focus and easily kill the swarmlord which isn't what you want here or in any other list with other MCs or high value units.

 

Hopefully, that all made sense and why I believe that Tyrant Guard easily beat Hive Guard of every variant in an all-comers competitive list. Because they have the power, the range and they are the least affected by modifiers. Making it much harder to stop them. They are also tougher than the Hive Guard by +1Svs and protect the Swarmlord, because he has the most powerful ability in the entire codex. The ability to move twice in a single turn without having to rely on killing units, spells or stratagems. So, it can't be negated by spells, stratagems or forward DS denial zone units. The only way to stop it is to kill the Swarmlord and with 12 Tyrant Guard protecting him with a total of 36 wounds between them. That is never going to happen in just one turn or even the first turn.

[antique_nova]

I honestly don’t understand the love for Tyrant guard in this thread. They just seem like far worse and slow Guard Sentinel Powerlifter (that can also intercept wounds for a model that has more wounds per point than they do) to me, and you certainly don’t see powerlifter spammed anywhere. They also for the most part seem worse than for example termite assault drills. What am I missing that makes them so great for nids that they can carry whole lists?

Where does it say this, because I'm looking at the forgeworld book right now and there is absolutely no mention of what you said about them intercepting wounds for a model that has more wounds per point than they do.

[Finkmilkana]

 

 

I honestly don’t understand the love for Tyrant guard in this thread. They just seem like far worse and slow Guard Sentinel Powerlifter (that can also intercept wounds for a model that has more wounds per point than they do) to me, and you certainly don’t see powerlifter spammed anywhere. They also for the most part seem worse than for example termite assault drills. What am I missing that makes them so great for nids that they can carry whole lists?

Where does it say this, because I'm looking at the forgeworld book right now and there is absolutely no mention of what you said about them intercepting wounds for a model that has more wounds per point than they do.

I mean they are like powerlifter, with the addition that they can intercept wounds. But if you give them an anti tank load out, they cost 50 for 3 wounds. Per wound that’s not really cheaper than the HT they want to protect (with the exception of the swarm lord). And since they lack an invuln with only 3 wounds, they are pretty easy to kill with any kind of heavy weapon. Power lifter also have the advantage of a stratagem to hit on 2+ on the charge and getting another attack from stracken.

 

Their pure anti tank damage is pretty good for tyranids, but saying they are the best anti tank seemingly ignores that, on their own, they are pretty slow. Sure, if you use the swarm lord etc on them, they (or rather one unit of them) can be pretty fast. But at that point you have to include all the points/CP you spend to get them there in your calculation and, assuming the opponent screens adequately, you still won’t be in turn 1, so you also have to take a “lost turn” into account when comparing them to shooting anti tank. Stuff like tau or eldar might just kite them to death.

Doing slightly more wounds per point simply seems a very bad trade for being quite easily outplayed. They are also far more squishy per point than hive guard against any kind of heavy weapon like plasma and many will die in meele against a knight before fighting twice. And if at the end of the day, you dealt say 16 wounds to a knight, but half of your 300 points of guard are dead from getting over watched/trampled and the knight then falls back and shoots you to bits with his top profile (stratagem), then you didn’t trade favorably.

 

As a side note, I’m also not really a big fan of hive guard either, though I think they are pretty much the best anti tank nids have right now. Tyranids simply got the short end of the stick when it comes to anti tank this edition and need to rely on board control and outlasting the opponent in a lot of matchups. Which in truly competitive settings sadly fails more often than not.

[Kallas]

I think Finkmilkana is saying that Tyrant Guard can intercept (not the Powerlifter), but that the Tyrant itself has better points-per-wound than the Guard do.

[Finkmilkana]

To put the tyrant guard damage a bit into perspektive, 3 Genestealers with toxin sacs cost 48 and deal 2.666 unsaved wounds to a knight (assuming no broodlord but a large squad, so hitting on 3+ with 4 attacks). 1 AT tyrant guard costs 49 and deals only 1.66 unsaved wounds. Per point, that makes toxin sac Genestealers more than 50% more effective. While they are more squishy against small arms fire, they are also faster, far better against softer targets and more durable against heavy weapons. Just getting them all into combat at the same time could be tricky.

[antique_nova]

I don't understand where you got your numbers from, but 3x genestealers with 12 attacks = 9 hits (reroll 2, hit 1) = 9÷6 equals 1.5 wounds. (2 if we round up). The knight will save at least one. Meaning you only get 2 unsaved damage wounds going through.

 

A tryant guard is harder to calculate alone, so let's do the squad equivalent.

 

18x toxin sac genestealers = 72 attacks/48 hits = 8 wounds/5 saved. So only 3 unsaved wound goes through, meaning 6 damage wounds inflicted.

 

That's still half of what the 6x Tyrant guard can do with the Kraken rules, who cause 12 unsaved damage wounds. (7 wounds. One saved)

 

Also, a fully equipped powerlift sentinel costs 45 points and can only be taken in groups of 3. Can't fight twice, are ap2 and don't benefit from the swarmlords ability or any other nid codex abilities. So, they're much slower. Too slow.

 

And concerning the bubble wrap. That is nothing the nidz can just overcome due to how crap their shooting is in general. That's why I don't believe they'll ever take the no.1 spot. Because in this edition their shooting and anti-tank is absolutely crap at best and I have to agree with the kiting and be able to withdraw and max stratagem those tyrant guard to death.

[Kallas]

and concerning the bubble wrap. That is nothing the nidz can just overcome due to how crap their shooting is in general. That's why I don't believe they'll ever take the no.1 spot. Because in this edition their shooting and anti-tank is absolutely crap at best and I have to agree with the kiting and be able to withdraw and max stratagem those tyrant guard to death.

 

Dakka Flyrants/Fexes will do a number on screens. 24x BS3+ 6/0/1 shots each is a significant volume of fire to clear chaff. One Flyrant, two Fexes will set you back about 430-470pts, but they'll rinse screens pretty damn quickly. Hell, three Dakkafexes is only 315pts (without Spore Cysts; 345 with) and they're outputting 72 shots (that's an average of 26 GEQs [your typical screen for Knights], which is two and a half squads of Guardsmen).

[Finkmilkana]

I don't understand where you got your numbers from, but 3x genestealers with 12 attacks = 9 hits (reroll 2, hit 1) = 9÷6 equals 1.5 wounds. (2 if we round up). The knight will save at least one. Meaning you only get 2 unsaved damage wounds going through.

 

A tryant guard is harder to calculate alone, so let's do the squad equivalent.

 

18x toxin sac genestealers = 72 attacks/48 hits = 8 wounds/5 saved. So only 3 unsaved wound goes through, meaning 6 damage wounds inflicted.

 

That's still half of what the 6x Tyrant guard can do with the Kraken rules, who cause 12 unsaved damage wounds. (7 wounds. One saved)

 

Also, a fully equipped powerlift sentinel costs 45 points and can only be taken in groups of 3. Can't fight twice, are ap2 and don't benefit from the swarmlords ability or any other nid codex abilities. So, they're much slower. Too slow.

 

And concerning the bubble wrap. That is nothing the nidz can just overcome due to how crap their shooting is in general. That's why I don't believe they'll ever take the no.1 spot. Because in this edition their shooting and anti-tank is absolutely crap at best and I have to agree with the kiting and be able to withdraw and max stratagem those tyrant guard to death.

3 genestealer = 12 attacks = 8 hits = 1.333 wounds that all rend with -4 (so no save) and deal two damage = 2.666 damage. Remember that the rending claws on a 6 to wound have -4 ap, so the knight does not get any save.

 

1 tyrant guard = 3 attacks = 1.5 hits = 1 wound = 0.833 unsaved wounds = 1.6666 damage (or 1.887 if you also give them toxin sacs, but then they cost more than 3 stealers).

I’m not sure why you suddenly have 6 tyrant guards at 12 wounds, when you earlier also had them at 10 (=6*1.6666) wounds too.

 

Powerlifter can move 9 before the first turn, giving them an effective 28.5 charge range turn one. They also have a better base speed at 9 vs 7, which is more than the kraken bonus on its own (while everything else costs points). They also have twice the wounds and can give themselves -1 to hit turn 1 in case they can’t reach meele yet. Still, I’m not saying they are competetive, I’m only saying they are in many aspects better and more reliable than tyrant guard, but are still not played often.

 

And both of them are outdone by stealers.

[antique_nova]

 

I don't understand where you got your numbers from, but 3x genestealers with 12 attacks = 9 hits (reroll 2, hit 1) = 9÷6 equals 1.5 wounds. (2 if we round up). The knight will save at least one. Meaning you only get 2 unsaved damage wounds going through.

 

A tryant guard is harder to calculate alone, so let's do the squad equivalent.

 

18x toxin sac genestealers = 72 attacks/48 hits = 8 wounds/5 saved. So only 3 unsaved wound goes through, meaning 6 damage wounds inflicted.

 

That's still half of what the 6x Tyrant guard can do with the Kraken rules, who cause 12 unsaved damage wounds. (7 wounds. One saved)

 

Also, a fully equipped powerlift sentinel costs 45 points and can only be taken in groups of 3. Can't fight twice, are ap2 and don't benefit from the swarmlords ability or any other nid codex abilities. So, they're much slower. Too slow.

 

And concerning the bubble wrap. That is nothing the nidz can just overcome due to how crap their shooting is in general. That's why I don't believe they'll ever take the no.1 spot. Because in this edition their shooting and anti-tank is absolutely crap at best and I have to agree with the kiting and be able to withdraw and max stratagem those tyrant guard to death.

3 genestealer = 12 attacks = 8 hits = 1.333 wounds that all rend with -4 (so no save) and deal two damage = 2.666 damage. Remember that the rending claws on a 6 to wound have -4 ap, so the knight does not get any save.

 

1 tyrant guard = 3 attacks = 1.5 hits = 1 wound = 0.833 unsaved wounds = 1.6666 damage (or 1.887 if you also give them toxin sacs, but then they cost more than 3 stealers).

I’m not sure why you suddenly have 6 tyrant guards at 12 wounds, when you earlier also had them at 10 (=6*1.6666) wounds too.

 

Powerlifter can move 9 before the first turn, giving them an effective 28.5 charge range turn one. They also have a better base speed at 9 vs 7, which is more than the kraken bonus on its own (while everything else costs points). They also have twice the wounds and can give themselves -1 to hit turn 1 in case they can’t reach meele yet. Still, I’m not saying they are competetive, I’m only saying they are in many aspects better and more reliable than tyrant guard, but are still not played often.

 

And both of them are outdone by stealers.

 

You forgot to mention that they had rending claws in the fight place and for some reason, I calculated each 16pt genestealer as only having toxin sacs. XD

 

The reason for 12 wounds is because I got the scything talons and rending claws mixed up. It happens. XD

 

Powerlifter has 9" scout move, but there is absolutely no way you'd use it if you went second, so you can't count that 9" move. Giving it an effective range of 19" to charge on average per turn. Which is still much too slow and even if it went first turn with the number you gave, that's still much slower than all the benefits that the tyrants could get from the nidz codex.

 

They still are no way near more reliable than the tyrant guard even with those benefits, because they're far more easily killed due to their armour save and yes the -1 to hit helps, but that's only for one unit and the unit is far too small. They still can't do enough damage to claim to be better as being better, because while they have a -1 to hit, they still cannot protect the swarmlord. In other words, they don't synergise with the army very well and that's far more important. Especially in a swarmlord list.

 

Now that you made it clear that the genestealers have toxin sacs and rending claws, I understand your point. Those genestealers outdo both hive guard and tyrant guard by a country mile! Since the best tyrant guard can do is 10 wounds, while the genestealers can put out 16 wounds. On average a Knight Gallant (the best CC knight) would then get 15 attacks, 12 hits, 10 wounds and 7 kills. Then you hit back a second time with 44 attacks, 29 hits, 5 wounds, deal 10 damage and that's a very dead knight, because that's 26 wounds in total and they only have 24 max. No stratagem will save that knight.

 

And to counter the bubble wrap, I don't think it's necessary to have a swarmlord, because it doesn't matter then if you reach the enemy in turn 1 or 2. You need bodies as you said earlier to overcome that screen more than you need speed and so if you take out all the tyrant guard and replace the swarmlord with another broodlord, you can get 45x toxin sac rending claw genestealers to go with your other 65 butt naked genestealers. You then have 110 genestealers, I'd split that into two smaller 10 bug units, then spread the rest amount 4 units. (later I switch out some genestealers for termagaunts further down, so you don't have 110 genestealers)

 

I also figured that the meiotic spore's special ability is only need for a few moments, specifically to combat TS DMC first strike and daboyz jump which normally won't roll for a successful charge anyway. So, it's better to spend those 3CPs when necessary rather than most of the time or overspend on more mines.

 

Also, for some reason I always kept reading that it was individual devourers with brainleech worms per slot, not double the number. Which is weird, because it's been staring at me in the face, but if we're going to talk about clearing waves, then devourer gaunts are far better at it than anyone else in the codex. Since the stats against guardsmen say:

 

30x Fleshborer Termagaunts - 120 pts

Causes - 8 wounds (14 with the +1 to wound stratagem. 29 with the +1 to wound and shoot twice stratagem) - 3CP spent

Effective Range - 18"

 

30x Devourer Termagaunts - 240 pts

Causes - 36 wounds (70 with the shoot twice stratagem) - 2CP spent

Effective Range - 24"

 

3x Carnifexes - 12x Devourers with brainleecher worms - 3x Enhanced Senses - 315 pts

Causes - 32 wounds.

Effective Range - 24"

 

So, it would seem that the devourer Termagaunts are best for this.

 

I think this would be more appropriate.

 

2x Broodlords

6x Spore mines

7x Ripper Swarms

30x Devourer Termagaunts 

78x genestealers - 3x 26 (20x Toxin Sacs & Rending Claws + 6x Talons)

 

The termagaunts focused unit focuses on killing swarms of infantry, while the rest can easily taken down any imperial knight in one assault phase (they need the fight twice stratagem to finish them off with only a maximum lose of 7 guys from it hitting back.)

 

Still not strong enough to take the top spot, but thanks for clearing that part up about the toxin rending stealers!

 

I'm also not liking the fact that the screen killers are left to just one fragile unit of termagaunts. Although it will do a few things. Such as force the enemy to focus on termagaunts more since they will remove the person's bubble wrap units. Giving your genestealers more time to chew through the enemy and other bubble wraps themselves.

 

So, why not.

 

1x Broodlord

1x Neurothrope

6x Spore mines - 2x3

6x Ripper Swarms - 2x3

29x Devourer Termagaunts 

30x Devourer Termagaunts 

60x genestealers with Toxin Sacs & Rending Claws - 3x20

[Finkmilkana]

Ok, I think we are mostly on a line now.

Just as a side note, I don’t think it is possible to take Genestealers without rending claws. The talons are a free updgrade that does not replace the claws.

 

The biggest problem of this kind of list (and most nid lists) is that it is kinda squishy and can’t attack flyers. A single punisher vulture for example kills up to 12 genestealer a turn and can’t really be attacked back. Sadly, I don’t really think there is a way around this problem for nids right now, so flooding the board as you propose is probably the best idea. Hive guard can at least try to shoot them down, but are not really point efficient and also quite squishy.

[antique_nova]

Ok, I think we are mostly on a line now.

Just as a side note, I don’t think it is possible to take Genestealers without rending claws. The talons are a free updgrade that does not replace the claws.

 

The biggest problem of this kind of list (and most nid lists) is that it is kinda squishy and can’t attack flyers. A single punisher vulture for example kills up to 12 genestealer a turn and can’t really be attacked back. Sadly, I don’t really think there is a way around this problem for nids right now, so flooding the board as you propose is probably the best idea. Hive guard can at least try to shoot them down, but are not really point efficient and also quite squishy.

You're right about that!

 

Nidz also rarely feel like a swarm army and as I've pointed out in a different thread, the game doesn't fairly represent space marines properly at all and this goes the same for Orks and Tyranids who rarely if ever attack anything unless they outnumber the enemy in numbers and points severely.

 

A more realistic battle would normally be nidz outnumbering any force by at least 100 to 1 and if anyone ever tries to fight nidz in large numbers it will either be elite marines on a 10,000 to 1 ratio minimum or a guard army that's outnumbered like 100-1000 to 1 minimum with a relatively small unit of marines in comparison.