Experience With Vigilus Formations

[HallofStovokor]

Ar the moment I’d say a regular battlecannon is better than the HoS. Flat damage 3 is great but I’d rather fire the regular battlecannon twice because of grinding advance.

 

As written right now the HoS can not be fired twice because it is not on the list of weapons listed on page 86 under the grinding advance rule.

 

I expect this to be «fixed» in a FAQ and then it will be a totaly fantastic weapon :-). Range 72” and 2d6 shots with flat damage 3 is going to hurt most units.

I disagree. The HoS is an upgrade for the battle cannon. It's most definitely a turret mounted weapon, thus it is covered under grinding advance. The only reason they bothered listing the names of the guns is so nobody tried to double fire a heavy stubber or storm bolter.

[sairence]

I feel anyone that tries to argue that in a game is just being silly. It's a battlecannon.

[Are Verlo]

I feel anyone that tries to argue that in a game is just being silly. It's a battlecannon.

 

Anyone claiming the HoS is a battlecannon is cheating and making up rules.

 

Here is a direct quote from Vigilus defiant page 193

"Model with battle cannon only. Hammer of sunderance replaces the bearer´s battle cannon and has the following profile" 

 

Thre is not a single rule that says it´s a battle cannon or that it qualifies as a weapon that enable the grinding advence rule as described in codex: AM page 86.

Players claiming the rules as written enables the HoS to be fired twice if the bearer moves less than half it´s move, are making up rules.

 

 

 

I disagree. The HoS is an upgrade for the battle cannon. It's most definitely a turret mounted weapon, thus it is covered under grinding advance. The only reason they bothered listing the names of the guns is so nobody tried to double fire a heavy stubber or storm bolter.

 

 

No where does it say "upgrade" the battle cannon to the following profile. It CLEARLY says, replace the bearer´s battle cannon. And word by word, the grinding advance tells exactly what weapons that are turret weapons for the purpose of shooting twice and the HoS is not on the list, nor does it say "counts as a battlecannon" or upgrade the profile to damage 3 istead of 3. 

 

I hope it is an oversight by the writers and they add the relic to the list of weapons. As a comparison codex: Imperial knights have many rules/stratagems/abilities that trigger off weapons and there the writer have clearly added the relics to the list. Example of that is chainsweep stratagem page 109, it says "... reaper chainsword, ravager or honour´s bite". The last two are relics and both can only be taken by models with reaper chainsword and they both replace the bearer´s reaper chainsword.

 

As said earlier i hope it is an oversight and GW will do like they did in codex IK: add the relis to abilities that trigger off spesific weapons...because no rule says the HoS is a battle cannon and HoS is not on the list of weapons under grinding advance

 

Edit: spelling

[duz_]

=][= Further discussion regarding ordering after calling back and Grinding Advance.+ Relic equipment can goto the OR or the GW FAQ email. =][=

[ProminusIV]

I played a game with a double tank-commander - fist of the emperor 1000p list. The 3 flat dmg battle cannon was great! And the overwatch stratagem saved my tank from a small mob of commandos that tried to charge from deepstrike. I even used the mortal wound charge stratagem to kill a bullgryn (multiplayer match). All in all, very pleased with the possibility to tune my army even more and it adds a lot of fluff! 

[1126PLL]

I've built an Emperor's Blade Assault Company with the Catachan regimental doctrine at 2000 points. It's pretty funny, with its biggest struggles being anti-tank. However, it tends to be so overwhelming that the enemy quickly loses control of the game; the only army I'm worried about playing against it with is one with a Knight or several, which I haven't had the pleasure of testing against yet.

Brigade Detachment:

HQs:

3x Company Commanders with upgrades (112)

 

Troops:

6x Infantry Squads with vox/flamer (306)

 

Fast Attack:

3x Armored Sentinels with lascannons (150)

 

Elites:

3x Command Squad with upgrades - mostly plasma (202)

 

Heavy Support:

3x Carnodon tank with twin lascannon, heavy bolters (348)

 

Dedicated Transport:

9x Chimera, twin heavy flamer, track guards (882)

 

The basic idea behind the list is T7 3+ spam, with 120 T7 3+ wounds and the sentinel's 18 T6 3+ wounds. The Mechanized Fire Support stratagem is eminently useful, with enemies making their charge distances longer just to get out from under the Chimera's heavy flamers. The Chimeras also cannot be degraded (except for their Attacks stat) and so cannot safely be ignored even at low wounds. There's plenty of empty space inside the Chimeras as well to shuffle units around the board if e.g. one of the command tracks is destroyed. The basic premise is to drive forwards Turn 1 and blow the smoke dischargers, then endure enemy firepower and drive forwards again, while the Carnodons and Sentinels (try to) hunt enemy armor with their lascannons. Any wounded tanks that are left undamaged can then be subject, still on turn 1, to the Rapid Redeploy stratagem which dumps one of the plasma command squads out of their transport and allows them to rapid fire, with the Warlord giving orders to them from inside the Chimera with Laurels of Command. Once you've pinned the enemy in their DZ with your armored phalanx, you can keep the troopers mounted up until they need to clear an objective; the Chimerae can charge and shut down most armour. It seems to work alright.

[noigrim]

I used the russ formation today with the relic cannon and my tank cmd totalled the far pricey longstrike despite having only 4 wounds left

[sairence]

Played the Fist today, with a relic cannon commander, a Demolisher commander and 3 Executioners.

 

Relic cannon solid as always and the Demolisher got to use the move and fire full strategem T1, which got him in range of some Plague Marines. Perfect gun to kill them. :D

 

Was hoping my opponent would get close so I could try the mortal wound charge strategem, but he was on the backfoot the entire game and conceeded T3 with only his 2 Plagueburst Crawlers some Poxwalkers and 2 or 3 characters left.

 

10/10 would bring the Fist again.

[HallofStovokor]

I think guard is probably the best option against chaos lists. I was playing against Khorne demons with a CSM superheavy yesterday. I got charged by blood letters and the lord of skulls. Blood letters charged a punisher hopping to take it out of the fight and the Lord of skulls charged my executioner. I used vengeance for cadia and defensive gunners for the executioner. After that big loss of points, he conceded in my turn 2 shooting.

[Diagramdude]

Emperor's Wrath is great with two Basilisk and a Hydra. All three can reach the whole table and the Hydra is a perfect unit for both stratagems. If there is some FLY unit in range, it will take 16 autocannons on BS3+. If no good targets, 1 CP for suppressive fire. How many points would a Heavy 16 Hydra cost? Way more than 93 and Guard have the CPs to power it for several turns. The Agripinaa relic is also great with the Hydra because it effectively doubles the AP from 1 to 2 against units that would otherwise get a +1 cover save.

[duz_]

FAQ for Vigilus dropped today

A few questions have been answered

 

Relic battle cannon can double shoot and unyielding advance strat also allows you to double shoot

 

I'm on my work PC so can't quote the FAQ txt, I'm sure another enterprising officer will take care of that though ;)

[HallofStovokor]

That's cool, but the FAQ isn't showing up when I checked.

[Shamansky]

Looks like it's not a FAQ really but an update

[Phubar]

Lol, a tallarn LR can move up to 17-22" in a turn and fire the turret twice! Spending 1 CP and an order.

[HallofStovokor]

Wow, so advancing doesn't stop the double shooting of a weapon if you use unyielding advance. That makes Emperor's Fist almost as good as Emperor's Wrath.

[Wassa]

Q: Can an Emperor’s Fist unit that Advanced use the Unyielding Advance Stratagem to shoot its turret weapon twice? A: Yes.

 

Q: Does the Hammer of Sunderance Relic count as a turret weapon for the purposes of Grinding Advance? A: Yes

[Wassa]

Also...

 

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?

A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine.

 

 

 

This reopens up the can of worms of "can a custom regiment take the Storm Trooper Doctrine" debate.

[sairence]

Also...

 

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?

A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine.

 

 

 

This reopens up the can of worms of "can a custom regiment take the Storm Trooper Doctrine" debate.

Ah. I was wondering what weird train of thought triggered that clarification.

 

Happy we don't have to argue about the cannon any longer and surprised that the strategem allows advancing as well. That makes it pretty damn mobile. It had it's uses without that, but now...nice. Guess my Demolisher has more hiding places now. Might need to put racing stripes on it.

[Are Verlo]

Ooooh, demolisher with the strat has impressive effective range :-D

[Diagramdude]

But a Russ TC that advances so far upfield is probably dead? Wait... Strike and Shroud order, plus Nightshroud. T8 12W 3+ with -2 to hit. Nice. 

[MrZakalwe]

Also...

 

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?

A: A Militarum Tempestus Detachment is an Astra Militarum Detachment that has the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine.

 

 

 

This reopens up the can of worms of "can a custom regiment take the Storm Trooper Doctrine" debate.

Is that a debate? It seems clear as day that they can, they just wont have the Militarum Tempestus keyword.

[Phubar]

But a Russ TC that advances so far upfield is probably dead? Wait... Strike and Shroud order, plus Nightshroud. T8 12W 3+ with -2 to hit. Nice.

Yes but grabbing a vital objective and still unleash heavy firepower can be game changing.

Or run away from an aproaching melee unit and still decimate it is funny!

Not all the moves are made forward the enemy and not all suicide moves are a loss.

[Diagramdude]

Oh Phubar I am saying it is not a suicide move at all if you can get Strike and Shroud plus Nightshroud off. T8 12W at -2 is extremely difficult to shift with ranged weapons.

[Phubar]

I red your reply too fast, like a leman russ :D

Now i got it :)

[Wassa]

Played a game last night vs Orks.

 

 

I was playing cadians, a lot of mortars, screening, backed up by an Emperors Fist Detachment:

1x LR Tank Commander Punisher (Emperors Fist Field Commander, Rerolls overwatch for any Leman Russ within 5", Relic of Lost Cadia)

1x LR Tank Commander Battle Cannon (Hammer of Sunderance)

1x LR Punisher

1x LR Battle Cannon

(and some other stuff that didn't benefit)

 

It was glorious brothers!

 

Moved the Punishers ahead of my screens, The Tank Commander Punisher forward enough to be in range of some Boyz and get double shots, Moved the normal Punisher ahead more to be in range of his Lootas. Used Unyielding Advance to regain 40 shots on the Punisher that was ahead. Used the Relic to regain my reroll 1s to hit and added reroll 1s to wound. Shot the mortars to score a few wounds on the Lootas, and then used Overlapping Fields of Fire on the Lootas and finished them off with 40 shots from the advanced Punisher. The Tank Commander Punisher and the rest of my guns finished off the Boyz.

 

Then it was his turn. As expected, he took the bait. 2 Punishers ahead out of position with no screening would be a tempting target. He charged the first one. But with Defensive Gunners, hitting on 5+ and rerolling overwatch from being within 6" of the Field Commander they caused a lot more damage than he expected!

 

 

The Relic Battle Cannon is brutal. 2D6 S8 AP-2 3D. As long as you roll a good number of attacks you're laughing. Amazing against single tough targets, but also effective against multiwound models. No more wasting wounds due to poor D3 rolling! Amazing relic, worth unlocking the detachment just for that.

 

Didn't get to use the Phalanx charging stratagem though as I wanted them to be charged to benefit from Defensive Gunners and rerolling misses.