WD Crimson Fist Index Astartes / Codex Supplement

[Lemondish]

So, saw this leak pop up over on dakka...Crimson Fists rules, but they aren't consistent so it's either the poster's fault or they aren't real - take with salt, as usual.

 

New Chapter Tactics: +1 to hit against units with more models than your attacking unit twice as many models as your attacking unit, Dreads count as 5 Edit: added Sete's info

 

Warlord Traits:

Tenacious Opponent: Same as Codex

Refuse to Die: Get back up on a 4+ with d3 wounds the first time you die

Stoic Defender: All Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts gain Defenders of Humanity If they are within 6" of the Warlord. If they already had it, they count as 2 models per 1 model

 

Stratagems:

Bolter Drill: Same as Codex. 

A Hated Foe: Target Unit rerolls all wounds against Ork units

Slay the Tyrant: Target Unit adds +1 to hit against Characters

 

Relics:

Fist of Vengeance: Same as Codex

Duty's Burden: Replaces Bolt Rifle 36", RF 2, Str 5, AP-2, D2

 

Thoughts? A few ramblings below...

 

At face value, the Chapter Tactic looks to be good for MSU units and single model units like Dreadnoughts - Redemptors that basically ignore the movement penalty by shooting something with at least 2 models? Okay. Edit: Damn, too early to get excited.

 

Bolter Drill could be amazing if you can get it to proc with the Chapter Tactic and the new Specialist Detachment.

 

Fist of Vengeance still boss. The new bolt rifle is weird since the only characters I can think of that can carry one is an Ancient...everyone else has auto or stalker, right? 

[Sete]

The CT is twice as much models.

Dread counts as 5.

Saw the CT image. It's legit.

Didn't see images for the rest, take it with salt.

But the CT is what I posted word by word.

[Lemondish]

The CT is twice as much models.

Dread counts as 5.

Saw the CT image. It's legit.

Didn't see images for the rest, take it with salt.

But the CT is what I posted word by word.

 

Dread counts as 5 models for that tactic? Lamesauce. 

 

And my hype levels tank into the ground. 

[Sete]

At least the dread is affected by the CT.

The Dakka Dread will be a better option and even after moving, if you shoot against a hordies unit you will hit on a 3+.

 

I'm not a tatics dude, I play fluffy all the time, so I really can't comment about effectiveness.

But considering I play mostly Vs nids, if I played CF it would be useful.

[Sete]

https://imgur.com/a/qC5f8g9

 

Link for the page

[Lemondish]

At least the dread is affected by the CT.

The Dakka Dread will be a better option and even after moving, if you shoot against a hordies unit you will hit on a 3+.

 

I'm not a tatics dude, I play fluffy all the time, so I really can't comment about effectiveness.

But considering I play mostly Vs nids, if I played CF it would be useful.

 

I mean, it's still useful - I was just hoping for something that essentially made Dreads super mobile almost all the time. It's definitely a horde specific trait that encourages MSU, something I'm totally okay with, and I imagine it'll apply far more often than attacking buildings ever would. Your characters will always benefit from it unless they're going toe to toe against something, and that's neat. Whether it applies as often as the benefit of ignoring cover...well I suppose that depends on the battlefield. 

[Dumah]

So they call out Dreads specifically, but no mention of large model infantry such as Aggressors and Centurions... That seems to imply they count as one model each for the Tactics. That could be quite strong, given their typically small unit size. I suppose the same goes for Terminators to a lesser extent.

[Lemondish]

So they call out Dreads specifically, but no mention of large model infantry such as Aggressors and Centurions... That seems to imply they count as one model each for the Tactics. That could be quite strong, given their typically small unit size. I suppose the same goes for Terminators to a lesser extent.

Great point. Inceptors, too.

[Panzer]

Stoic Defender sounds pretty awesome with the new CA18 missions.

[Dusktiger]

i've seen both the Imgur pics, and another person on a FB page for crimson fists who took photos of his own copy of the WD issue (subscribers get their copy several days earlier to encourage subscription service)  so i can vouch its accurate as well.  i'll quote the OP here and put any clarifications in a different font color here:

 

New Chapter Tactics: Crimson Fists armies may choose to use either the original Chapter Tactics shared with Imperial Fists in the Codex, of the new ones described below.
 

so the old one was ignore cover and re-roll failed wounds vs buildings.  the new one gives the following:

 

When fielding a Battle-Forged army, all Troops will gain the Defenders of Humanity ability.  In addition, all Infantry, Bikers, and Dreadnought units (except for servitors) also gain No Matter The Odds ability.

Defenders of Humanity - if the unit is within range of an Objective Marker, they control the objective regardless of their opponent has more models than they do.  if the enemy has a similar ability, then revert to giving the objective to the unit with the most models.

No Matter The Odds - +1 to hit when targeting enemy units that contain double the number of models.  Dreadnoughts will count as 5 models for this rule.
 

Warlord Traits:

Tenacious Opponent: Same as Codex

Refuse to Die: Get back up on a 4+ with d3 wounds the first time you die

Stoic Defender: All Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts gain Defenders of Humanity If they are within 6" of the Warlord. If they already had it, they count as 2 models per 1 model

 

Stratagems:

Bolter Drill: Same as Codex. 

A Hated Foe: Target Unit rerolls all wounds against Ork units

Slay the Tyrant: Target Unit adds +1 to hit against Characters

 

Relics:

Fist of Vengeance: Same as Codex

Duty's Burden: Replaces model's Bolt Rifle, Master-Crafted Auto Bolt Rifle, or Master-Crafted Stalker Bolt Rifle Range 36", Rapid Fire 2, Str 5, AP-2, D 2

So my thoughts...
I like the fact that now the Chapter Tactic is 2 buffs that will come into play more often.  I've never seen anyone play games with complete buildings on the map instead of ruins, so re-rolling vs buildings was such a waste.  having a Super Objective Secured for our troops is a nice touch, and if you were planning on playing the Vigilus detachment for Crimson Fists, then your Aggressors will love this even more since they'll all be 2+ to hit and likely have a captain nearby to re-roll 1s.  that's alot of hitting.

 

[L30n1d4s]

Well now, consider a squad of 6 x Assault Bolter Inceptors shooting at a squad of Orks.... use a Rhino Primaris for +1 to hit and then another +1 to hit for the Chapter Tactic if there are at least 12 Orks in the target unit... with a nearby Captain for re-rolls of 1s and Bolter Drill stratagem activated, that means you are generating extra shots on every 4+ and hitting with 97% accuracy... 36 shots base, plus another 18 generated from Bolter Drill at 97% accuracy yields an average of 52-53 x S5 AP-1 hits... activate the new Stratagem that allows CFs to reroll wounds against Orks and you have an average of 46-47 wounds against T4 Orks... factor in a 5++ KFF save and you get an average of 31 dead Orkd.. so an entire Mob of 30 Boyz gone to a single volley from the Crimson Fist Inceptors.... definitely living up to the Crimson Fist reputation there!

[The4thHorseman]

At least the dread is affected by the CT.

The Dakka Dread will be a better option and even after moving, if you shoot against a hordies unit you will hit on a 3+.

 

I'm not a tatics dude, I play fluffy all the time, so I really can't comment about effectiveness.

But considering I play mostly Vs nids, if I played CF it would be useful.

 

Makes Mortis Contemptor Kheress amazing. Moving up the Board with affective 2+ BS against Horde, which is why you would bring it.

[Biscuittzz]

Well now, consider a squad of 6 x Assault Bolter Inceptors shooting at a squad of Orks.... use a Rhino Primaris for +1 to hit and then another +1 to hit for the Chapter Tactic if there are at least 12 Orks in the target unit... with a nearby Captain for re-rolls of 1s and Bolter Drill stratagem activated, that means you are generating extra shots on every 4+ and hitting with 97% accuracy... 36 shots base, plus another 18 generated from Bolter Drill at 97% accuracy yields an average of 52-53 x S5 AP-1 hits... activate the new Stratagem that allows CFs to reroll wounds against Orks and you have an average of 46-47 wounds against T4 Orks... factor in a 5++ KFF save and you get an average of 31 dead Orkd.. so an entire Mob of 30 Boyz gone to a single volley from the Crimson Fist Inceptors.... definitely living up to the Crimson Fist reputation there!

 

Not to rain on your parade but you've just used about 500 points and 2 cp to kill about 200 points of boyz. Good on paper but not very points efficient, which unfortunately continues the space marine trend.

[L30n1d4s]

Well, 200 points of Boyz.... every turn.... that's potentially 1000 - 1400 points of Boyz over the course of a game of 5-7 turns.

 

Also, you can drop the Rhino Primaris and then they are only 270 points (not counting a Captain, which you will likely take in your army anyway and which would be buffing multiple other units as well... even without the Rhino Primaris this still generate an average of 48 shots, 46-47 hits, 41-42 hits, and 27-28 dead Orks after KFF saves, so basically killing all but 2-3 models in a mob (which you might just clean up via Overwatch if they charge your Inceptors).

 

Finally, it is not just 200 or so point Boyz Mobz this can be used against... this kills on average in a single shooting phase:

 

-25 man "mobbed up" Loota Squad (400+ points)

-30 man Stormboyz squad (260+ points)

-15 Tankbustaz (250+ points)

-15 "mobbed up" Flash Gitz (400+ points)

 

You get the point, but bottom line, I disagree with your reasoning that this would be "not very points efficient."

[Deafbok]

Further, it's at about 40% of the invested points cost removed in a single turn from shooting where most things can only kill about 33% worth of their own points cost in one round

[Lemondish]

 

 

Well now, consider a squad of 6 x Assault Bolter Inceptors shooting at a squad of Orks.... use a Rhino Primaris for +1 to hit and then another +1 to hit for the Chapter Tactic if there are at least 12 Orks in the target unit... with a nearby Captain for re-rolls of 1s and Bolter Drill stratagem activated, that means you are generating extra shots on every 4+ and hitting with 97% accuracy... 36 shots base, plus another 18 generated from Bolter Drill at 97% accuracy yields an average of 52-53 x S5 AP-1 hits... activate the new Stratagem that allows CFs to reroll wounds against Orks and you have an average of 46-47 wounds against T4 Orks... factor in a 5++ KFF save and you get an average of 31 dead Orkd.. so an entire Mob of 30 Boyz gone to a single volley from the Crimson Fist Inceptors.... definitely living up to the Crimson Fist reputation there!

Not to rain on your parade but you've just used about 500 points and 2 cp to kill about 200 points of boyz. Good on paper but not very points efficient, which unfortunately continues the space marine trend.

That's actually pretty efficient for a single turn of shooting, especially since the Rhino Primaris and Captain are going to be buffing other parts of your army.

[Jacques Corbin]

Wow, that "No Matter the Odds" ability is sweet! Run 5 Hammernators into a squad of 10+, and you are back to hitting on 3s. A squad of 3 Scout bikes now is 2+ shooting vs any unit of 6 or more models, in addition to being absurdly mobile. Plasma Cannon Devastators do not need to be babysat by a Captain when firing Supercharged at units of 10+.

 

Now, the big winner, IMO, is combo "No Matter the Odds" with "Auspex Scan" and dare somebody to deep strike within 12".

[Lemondish]

Wow, that "No Matter the Odds" ability is sweet! Run 5 Hammernators into a squad of 10+, and you are back to hitting on 3s. A squad of 3 Scout bikes now is 2+ shooting vs any unit of 6 or more models, in addition to being absurdly mobile. Plasma Cannon Devastators do not need to be babysat by a Captain when firing Supercharged at units of 10+.

 

Now, the big winner, IMO, is combo "No Matter the Odds" with "Auspex Scan" and dare somebody to deep strike within 12".

Not to mention Bolter Drill triggering on a 5 as well.

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I've removed the "rumours" tag and changed the topic title. This is confirmed and the discussion is now about the actual lore rules with subscribers providing the real information. I'm also directing the discussion specific to the Crimson Fists lore/rules taking place in the NRBA forum discussion about White Dwarf Magazine content to this topic.

 

I haven't subscribed to White Dwarf for a while, but this change might change my mind on that. I'll hold off for a bit to see if they can sustain sufficient gaming content, and the Index Astartes (and similar) articles are a huge draw for me. I'm happy that they've chosen the Crimson Fists as the first of the new articles, harking back to the Rogue Trader "Kil Kil Kil" days, but updating them for the progressions in the setting. GW chose well on this, capitalizing on the Imperial Fists Supremacy Force kit's applicability to the Crimson Fists.

[Charlo]

Gotta agree! This article is excellent and such a top way to add more rules and options to the game.

 

My it sadness is that the Emperor's Spears got a beautiful booklet with the lore but only a chapter tactic and no extra stuff.

[waaaaghlord]

There's a surprising amount of low model count units that can benefit from that CT pretty much all the time, Centurions, Aggressors, Inceptors, Bikers, Scout Bikers, Attack Bikes (offsetting the -1 for moving on multimeltas is pretty good), Chapter Veterans, Chapter Veterans on Bikes, Honour Guard. Even against more elite armies it could well kick in on your 5 man squads as they take casualties. Combined with Bolter Drill on dakka Centurions or Aggressors, maybe Chapter Vet Bikers rocking storm bolters or combi plasma on top of their twin bolters there's a lot of units that can benefit from that over the course of a game.

[Ishagu]

Gotta agree! This article is excellent and such a top way to add more rules and options to the game.

 

My it sadness is that the Emperor's Spears got a beautiful booklet with the lore but only a chapter tactic and no extra stuff.

I'd be surprised if they weren't the focus at some point. I'd love to see an upgrade sprue for them as well!

[durdle-durdle]

There's a surprising amount of low model count units that can benefit from that CT pretty much all the time, Centurions, Aggressors, Inceptors, Bikers, Scout Bikers, Attack Bikes (offsetting the -1 for moving on multimeltas is pretty good), Chapter Veterans, Chapter Veterans on Bikes, Honour Guard. Even against more elite armies it could well kick in on your 5 man squads as they take casualties. Combined with Bolter Drill on dakka Centurions or Aggressors, maybe Chapter Vet Bikers rocking storm bolters or combi plasma on top of their twin bolters there's a lot of units that can benefit from that over the course of a game.

The problem, I think, is that Bolter Drill wants you to take as many bolters as you can in a unit since it only goes off on 6’s (5’s if double outnumbered). Using a cp for that on a 5 man squad isn’t very good. Even 3 centurions isn’t exceedingly impressive. I’m bad at math, but I think that’s an extra 6 bolter shots and 6 Heavy Bolter shots. Not awful, but not really great. On a big squad, that doubles, but not very many opposing units will be 12+ models large other than ork squads and conscripts.

 

I actually like the chapter tactic quite a bit, but i’m Just still not impressed by Bolter Drill. I used to play with the standard of devestation for dark angels a lot in 6th. Even when it was double shooting bolters, it always sounded nice on paper, till you realize a handful of extra bolter shots really doesn’t do much.

[Lemondish]

A handful of extra bolter shots is what many are crawling all over as a solution to power armour woes in the other thread, yet when it's actually available it doesn't seem to be enough. That's interesting.

 

Either way, I can't see how it wouldn't be of value against the exact types of targets the tactic applies to. It's almost like having a whole other Aggressor there firing. There are precious few good strats available, but this one makes the grade when the tactic applies, I feel.

 

But I'll know when I get a few games in.

[IMMANIS EXTERMINATUS]

Hiya!

 

Would it be feasible to spend CP on Indomitus Crusaders rather than Liberator Strike Force for a CF detachment?

The thought is that the rules stipulate that a space marine detachment can be IC (CF are a SM detachment) and I have yet to see in the rules where it states that CF can only take the CF LSF specialist detachment.

So, if you take a CF detachment with a 10-man intercessor squads can you stack the following:

1) Indomitus Crusader / Vet Intercessor cp splurge
2) Apply the following on Vet Intercessors (w/stalker bolt rifles) in the Shooting phase:
a) Bolter Drill
b) Slay the tyrant
c) target sighted
d) grey shield - salamander's warlord trait (1 to hit re-roll and 1 to-wound roll) 
 

Thanks in advance for your feedback.