WD Crimson Fist Index Astartes / Codex Supplement

[Dusktiger]

yes, you can do that.  that specialist detachment can be used on any chapter.  its just the others that have a chapter restriction.

 

look at it this way; we all get to use the indomitus crusaders, and then each of the named chapters on vigilus also have another one they can choose to use.  you can use both in your army even, so long as your army contains 2 detachments and each one uses a different specialist detachment.

[Sea-People]

So the new Chapter Tactic negates the to-hit penalty for Power Fists and Thunder Hammers on Characters... Pedro just got much more nasty.

 

I really like this! It's flavorful and, while it doesn't look exactly tournament winning, brings marines just a tiiiiiiiny bit closer to making their value back. I think it would mix well with the vigilus detachment. Both stratagems synergize quite well with the +1 to hit.

[Lemondish]

So the new Chapter Tactic negates the to-hit penalty for Power Fists and Thunder Hammers on Characters... Pedro just got much more nasty.

 

I really like this! It's flavorful and, while it doesn't look exactly tournament winning, brings marines just a tiiiiiiiny bit closer to making their value back. I think it would mix well with the vigilus detachment. Both stratagems synergize quite well with the +1 to hit.

Sadly it only has an impact with one of them. Heroes of Rynn's World only triggers on unmodified hit rolls, so the +1 to hit has no impact.

 

Definitely will help with increasing the value of Paragons of Dorn, though. Which is great considering the chapter tactic encourages MSU while strats tend to favour larger units. The trade off isn't so harsh this way.

[Skorp]

I'm liking the idea of 6 aggressors with bolter drill. Depending on the opponent you can combat squad into two groups of 3 or keep a blob of 6 for max strategem efficiency

[IMMANIS EXTERMINATUS]

Hi!

I've got a question regarding relics:

If you have 3 detachments of the same chapter (i. e. Crimson Fists), and decide to specialise 2 of the 3 detachments (1 Indomitus & 1 LSF). Would you get 3 "free" relics? 1 chapter or plain vanilla relic for a warlord in the plain detachment, 1 for the indomitus detachment and 1 for the LSF?  In addition, if you go relic heavy..could you load up to 10 relics? 3 relics for plain vanilla detachment, 3 relics (1 SD & 2 Strat) for Indomitus detachment and same for LSF detachment. 

How many relics can a regular character carry? 

Cheers.

[Deafbok]

From the Vigilus supplement:

"Before the battle you may give a relic from this section to a CHARACTER from your army with the relevant <SPECIALIST DETACHMENT> keyword *instead of a relic from a codex or Chapter Approved.* Named characters such as Ghazghkull Thraka cannot be given relics."

The bit between *'s is the important one here, sadly.

I think the answer to the other one is "as many as you have CPs for, and the required equipment to unlock" (so a hard limit of 2[3?] weapons)

[Lemondish]

Hi!

 

I've got a question regarding relics:

 

If you have 3 detachments of the same chapter (i. e. Crimson Fists), and decide to specialise 2 of the 3 detachments (1 Indomitus & 1 LSF). Would you get 3 "free" relics? 1 chapter or plain vanilla relic for a warlord in the plain detachment, 1 for the indomitus detachment and 1 for the LSF? In addition, if you go relic heavy..could you load up to 10 relics? 3 relics for plain vanilla detachment, 3 relics (1 SD & 2 Strat) for Indomitus detachment and same for LSF detachment.

 

How many relics can a regular character carry?

 

Cheers.

No, you take specialist detachment relics in place of relics from other sources. They are not "free". You're still limited to 3 Relics total - one for free, an extra for 1CP, and a third for 3CP. They must all be given to different characters, so the total number of relics a character can carry is 1.

 

Refer to the latest FAQ for Vigilus Defiant for details on specialist detachment relics. You can find the other relic limitations in your codex under the relic section and the Relics of the Chapter Stratagem.

[IMMANIS EXTERMINATUS]

 

Hi!

 

I've got a question regarding relics:

 

If you have 3 detachments of the same chapter (i. e. Crimson Fists), and decide to specialise 2 of the 3 detachments (1 Indomitus & 1 LSF). Would you get 3 "free" relics? 1 chapter or plain vanilla relic for a warlord in the plain detachment, 1 for the indomitus detachment and 1 for the LSF? In addition, if you go relic heavy..could you load up to 10 relics? 3 relics for plain vanilla detachment, 3 relics (1 SD & 2 Strat) for Indomitus detachment and same for LSF detachment.

 

How many relics can a regular character carry?

 

Cheers.

No, you take specialist detachment relics in place of relics from other sources. They are not "free". You're still limited to 3 Relics total - one for free, an extra for 1CP, and a third for 3CP. They must all be given to different characters, so the total number of relics a character can carry is 1.

 

Refer to the latest FAQ for Vigilus Defiant for details on specialist detachment relics. You can find the other relic limitations in your codex under the relic section and the Relics of the Chapter Stratagem.

 

"They are not "free". You're still limited to 3 Relics total - one for free, an extra for 1CP, and a third for 3CP." Per detachment right? 

 

So, in a 2k Army with 3 detachments it could be as follows:

 

Detachment 1: Crimson Fists - LSF specialist detachment

1 relic because of upgrading to SD to 1 character

2 relics because of C:SM stratagem to 2 characters

Total for detachment 1: 3 relics

 

Detachment 2: Dark Angels - Ravenwing Assault Squadron

1 relic because of upgrading to SD to 1 character

2 relics because of C:DA stratagem to 2 characters

total for detachment 2: 3 relics

 

Detachment 3: Blood Angels - normal detachment

1 relic because Warlord to 1 character

2 relics because of C:BA stratagem to 2 characters

total for detachment 3: 3 relics

 

total relics for army: 9 relics

 

Vigilus FAQ states that specialist relic cannot be in addition to warlord relic for a character.  If warlord is in a separate detachment this is no issue. 

Per Vigilus book: If your army includes any XX Specialist Detachments,you can give the following relic to a XX Specialist detachment CHARACTER from your army. 

 

I also refer to the following video: 

 

Cheers. 

[Roderikum]

Hail Brothers! As far as I understood when reading the Detachment's Relics from Vigilus book I do not see how It bypass the common rule of Relics. I mean, why do assume that they don't follow the rules of Relics (that is: one free for the Warlord, Up to two more for 3 CP for each detachment)? As said before, I've read It twice today and couldn't find how It works as described in the video.

[Lemondish]

Hail Brothers! As far as I understood when reading the Detachment's Relics from Vigilus book I do not see how It bypass the common rule of Relics. I mean, why do assume that they don't follow the rules of Relics (that is: one free for the Warlord, Up to two more for 3 CP for each detachment)? As said before, I've read It twice today and couldn't find how It works as described in the video.

 

That's because it doesn't ;)

 

The video makes assumptions that aren't supported by the rules. 

[Roderikum]

So Brother Immanis is not right at all, because giving field Commander to a Character doesn't make It a warlord (although It does give It a warlord's trait) and, therefore It doesn't have a free relic...

[IMMANIS EXTERMINATUS]

So Brother Immanis is not right at all, because giving field Commander to a Character doesn't make It a warlord (although It does give It a warlord's trait) and, therefore It doesn't have a free relic...

 

Per Vigilus Book...1 SD relic can be given to 1 SD Character. It does not state that said character has to be the warlord of your battle-forged army. 

[Lemondish]

 

So Brother Immanis is not right at all, because giving field Commander to a Character doesn't make It a warlord (although It does give It a warlord's trait) and, therefore It doesn't have a free relic...

 

Per Vigilus Book...1 SD relic can be given to 1 SD Character. It does not state that said character has to be the warlord of your battle-forged army. 

 

 

It also does not state that the relic is a free addition to the relic from your Warlord's codex. It is given instead of the relic from your Warlord's codex, and you can use the stratagem to gain additional relics as you normally would.

[IMMANIS EXTERMINATUS]

 

 

So Brother Immanis is not right at all, because giving field Commander to a Character doesn't make It a warlord (although It does give It a warlord's trait) and, therefore It doesn't have a free relic...

 

Per Vigilus Book...1 SD relic can be given to 1 SD Character. It does not state that said character has to be the warlord of your battle-forged army. 

 

 

It also does not state that the relic is a free addition to the relic from your Warlord's codex. It is given instead of the relic from your Warlord's codex, and you can use the stratagem to gain additional relics as you normally would.

 

 

To be honest, the relic is not free as one would have paid 1 CP to unlock the SD. However, it is assumed that the SD detachment draws from the same codex as the warlord's detachment (or that warlord and SD are within the same detachment).  So what happens if RAW...my warlord is a watch master in a deathwatch detachment and I have another detachment with Crimson Fists LSF....I can't give DW relics to CF. Do I have to spend CP on a stratagem to get the specialist detachment's relic for CF?

 

I think the FAQ intended to answer the question that a detachment, which becomes specialised,  and includes the warlord could not have 2 free relics (1 for being a specialist detachment and 1 for including a warlord).  This would help limit the max relics for warlord's detachment to 3. 

 

If you read the DW codex...the condition for the free relic is if you have a DW warlord and then you may give it to a DW character. The specialist detachments' relics' condition is only that you include the specialist detachment in question to your army and then you can give it to a character in the specialised detachment. 

[Lemondish]

I think you basically answered your own question there.

[IMMANIS EXTERMINATUS]

I think you basically answered your own question there.

 

True...I'm just asking for a friend. Lol

[Rizara]

Ok, i am a bit baffled with some of the relic talk here.  Like getting more than 3 relics for having more detachments, that is news to me, granted i haven't played much. 

 

However, on the vigilus detachment and the wording on the relic, it states"  that if your army includes a liberator strike force specialist detachment, than you can give the following relic to any liberator strike force character from your army."   There is no in place of existing relic or if you spend CP, it simply states that you have to spend 1cp to make one detachment a liberator strike force, and that you can then give one character in that detachment the relic.   It does state with the warlord trait that it can be given instead of another trait, but the relic is simply in addition to any other relic you are already taking. 

 

For example i could make a detachment pile my infantry into that unit with a lieutenant leading them, but have my warlord (a captain) in another detachment.  I get the one free relic for my warlord, but because i pay the CP and give the other detachment the liberator strike force they also get a relic for one of the characters in that detachment.  Then I guess after that if i wanted to spend more CP to get more relics those would apply.  

[Lemondish]

Ok, i am a bit baffled with some of the relic talk here.  Like getting more than 3 relics for having more detachments, that is news to me, granted i haven't played much. 

 

However, on the vigilus detachment and the wording on the relic, it states"  that if your army includes a liberator strike force specialist detachment, than you can give the following relic to any liberator strike force character from your army."   There is no in place of existing relic or if you spend CP, it simply states that you have to spend 1cp to make one detachment a liberator strike force, and that you can then give one character in that detachment the relic.   It does state with the warlord trait that it can be given instead of another trait, but the relic is simply in addition to any other relic you are already taking. 

 

For example i could make a detachment pile my infantry into that unit with a lieutenant leading them, but have my warlord (a captain) in another detachment.  I get the one free relic for my warlord, but because i pay the CP and give the other detachment the liberator strike force they also get a relic for one of the characters in that detachment.  Then I guess after that if i wanted to spend more CP to get more relics those would apply.  

 

No. From page 169 of Vigilus Defiant explaining the rules of specialist detachments (before you even enter into the specifics of each):

 

"Before the battle you may give a relic from this section to a CHARACTER from your army with the relevant <SPECIALIST DETACHMENT> keyword instead of a relic from a codex or Chapter Approved."

 

 

This is expanded further by the FAQ which states...

 

Q: When paying Command Points to upgrade a Detachment into a Specialist Detachment, is the Relic they are able to give to a CHARACTER in addition to the Relic they would typically get from their Warlord’s faction?

A: No. The Relic(s) listed within a Specialist Detachment can be given to a CHARACTER from your army instead of one from your Warlord’s codex. Don’t forget, however, that many codexes contain Stratagems that enable you to gain additional Relics.

 

 

 

Keywords here are 'instead of'. This means that you can choose your free relic to be from your Warlord's detachment or from your Specialist Detachment. You do not get both for free simply because you purchased the detachment. You can however use the stratagem to acquire additional relics, including one of these (with the only limitation appearing to be that it applies to a CHARACTER in the <SPECIALIST DETACHMENT>).  

[Rizara]

yeah, okay, thanks for the heads up to that.  Was checking with some hobby friends too and they said the same thing.  I have come to the conclusion, that spending the one command point for that detachment really isn't worth it since they don't come with a free relic or really any free rules.  It is just spending one command point for access to 2 more stratagems which are nice, but now they are taxxed, and the warlord trait isn't great it just extends the aura, and the relic would have been nice but it isn't game breaking by any means.   It honestly feels like a wasted command point to me, so each of those stratagems have a higher cost and marines aren't known for having a ton of CP to spend so wasting one to get access to a stratagem feels lackluster at best.  

[Roderikum]

So, following that interpretation of the rules a single Detachment army may have four Relics: the first one free because if the warlord, a second one also for free because of upgrading It to a Specialist Detachment (for one CP), the third and fourth because they're payd at the price of 3 CP... Sorry, but It doesn't make sense to me. As said before, I can't find how that is justified by the Vigilus book, so I'd be very pleased if anyone could quote the text that allows such army building. As far as I understand It the new Relics are chosen in addition of the codex's one, but are not for free just because of the upgrading to SD. I've allways understood that SD allows the use of specific stratagems and Relics información addition of those in the Codex, but does not allow to bypass the number of Relics that can be fielded.

Sorry for my bad english.

[Lemondish]

yeah, okay, thanks for the heads up to that.  Was checking with some hobby friends too and they said the same thing.  I have come to the conclusion, that spending the one command point for that detachment really isn't worth it since they don't come with a free relic or really any free rules.  It is just spending one command point for access to 2 more stratagems which are nice, but now they are taxxed, and the warlord trait isn't great it just extends the aura, and the relic would have been nice but it isn't game breaking by any means.   It honestly feels like a wasted command point to me, so each of those stratagems have a higher cost and marines aren't known for having a ton of CP to spend so wasting one to get access to a stratagem feels lackluster at best.  

 

I totally get that, but I think you missed a cool benefit from the warlord trait...apply it to a Primaris Lieutenant, providing you a backfield buff bot that provides both the re-roll to hit aura (with extra range) and the re-roll to wound aura in one package. you can provide him the new Duty's Burden if you'd like, and since he'll benefit from the Chapter Tactic almost all the time he'll essentially be a 2+ BS ranged support buff bot. Cool combo, I think (even if he doesn't actually benefit from bolter discipline).

 

Furthermore, by selecting a specialist detachment you get to use field commander for 1 CP, so if it helps you can think of it as spending 2 command points for an extra warlord trait and access to a good selection of stratagems which are actually pretty powerful when applied to units like Hellblasters. It's a pity that Aggressors and Inceptors were left out because they would benefit a ton from those two stratagems, and it remains to be seen how valuable these stratagems will be given the new Crimson Fist rules really encourage you to go with small squads to maximize the new chapter tactic. The more I think about it, the more I see it as a difficult decision - sure, they're expensive to unlock, but these are actually stratagems I'll use whereas there are very little things I would spend CP on for a Primaris heavy force from the codex. 

 

So, following that interpretation of the rules a single Detachment army may have four Relics: the first one free because if the warlord, a second one also for free because if upgrading It to a Specialist Detachment, the third and fourth because they're payd at the price of 3 CP... Sorry, but It doesn't make sense to me. As said before, I can't find how that is justified by the Vigilus book, so I'd be very pleased if anyone could quote the text that allows such army building. As far as I understand It the new Relics are chosen in addition of the codex's one, but are not for free just because of the upgrading to SD.

 

That wasn't what I said. The interpretation I posted said the opposite. You do not get a second one free from upgrading to the Specialist Detachment, you simply get to choose that relic instead of the free one from your Warlord's codex. 

[Roderikum]

Sorry for my late answer

[dotbackslash]

I'm really digging these new chapter tactics and the discussion here as I hadn't looked at the LSF from vigilus yet.

 

Now I'm contemplating changing my imperial fists idea to crimson fists especially if you can choose to use either the original or the new chapter tactics.

[Lemondish]

I'm really digging these new chapter tactics and the discussion here as I hadn't looked at the LSF from vigilus yet.

 

Now I'm contemplating changing my imperial fists idea to crimson fists especially if you can choose to use either the original or the new chapter tactics.

 

The new Crimson Fists tactic really encourages MSU and gives a decent benefit for anti-horde equipped Dreadnoughts as well. However, the downside is that the new LSF (and even IC) stratagems from Vigilus really benefit from larger squads and don't really apply to the units that can gain most from the new chapter tactic. I suppose that's okay because you can more easily acquire CP through multiple battalions this way.

 

The real winners I find for the specialist detachments are the ability to grab an extra, sometimes pretty useful warlord trait. The Grey Shield one for IC is pretty neat and could be clutch, but the LSF one boosts a LT. into a perfectly valid firebase babysitter. 

[dotbackslash]

 

 

 

The new Crimson Fists tactic really encourages MSU and gives a decent benefit for anti-horde equipped Dreadnoughts as well. However, the downside is that the new LSF (and even IC) stratagems from Vigilus really benefit from larger squads and don't really apply to the units that can gain most from the new chapter tactic. I suppose that's okay because you can more easily acquire CP through multiple battalions this way.

 

The real winners I find for the specialist detachments are the ability to grab an extra, sometimes pretty useful warlord trait. The Grey Shield one for IC is pretty neat and could be clutch, but the LSF one boosts a LT. into a perfectly valid firebase babysitter. 

 

 

 

Yeah the lt. buff looks like a great firebase support for the backline intercessors especially with beta bolters.

 

Having played a few of the CA18 missions MSU is extremely valid now and can make for good backfield holders as we all know how annoying intercessors are with 2 wounds.

 

I'm currently running a DA detachment with azrael, 10 helblasters and 2 dev squads alongside an imperial fist detachment with cap, primaris lt, 3 5man tacs, redemptor, 2 rhinos.

 

I can see this working with the new CF tactic, as the redemptor can then negate moving when he's targeting blobs with either weapon option and obv the tac squads get better at shooting squads as they whither away.