PA Armies in general: How to improve them? Yep, again...

[Captain Idaho]

The problem with increasing the AP of a bolter at all ranges is the lack of a reason to move into rapid fire range for many units. Gunlines are not how Marines are intended and Tactical Marines and Intercessors just aren't very effective at range. The reason there is a large bonus (strength and AP) is to encourage units to actually utilise the bonus.

 

The bonus in close range is not just practical to encourage specific builds and play but also to encourage flavour in the performance.

 

Likewise, Marines are big and powerful up close hence the emphasis on their transhuman physiology.

[duz_]

What if

 

The Bolters get a standard AP-1 regardless of range

If you get within rapid fire range you get your standard double shots

 

However if you end up in CC with an opponent you get AP-1 for having power armour? :)
Plenty of novels where SM's crush other squishy life forms with their barehands? 
Might have to apply to infantry and swarms (et al) only though? 

 

This in addition to the +1A profile boost across the board

That way it doesnt matter if your long or short range :)

[MARK0SIAN]

@MARK0SIAN. Most AP weapons are wounding on the 3+ range for veh. There are not that many str 16 weapons on game. There are a lot of ways around it too if GW wanted to keep the Strn lower i.e this weapon always wounds veh on a 2 unless target has a higher toughness if they dont want it wounding on a 3+. Or they could just have a str 24 wpn. If it was completely up to me i would prefer veh go back to a completely different class rather than tougher infantry.

I agree with you on that. I think vehicles and infantry sharing the same profile/wounding mechanic has led to a lot of balance issues when it comes to making sure weapons are good against their intended targets whilst not being good against everything.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh totally wish there was a rules mechanic in place that differentiated between vehicles and infantry. Marines could totally have the Heavy Infantry keyword that grants them attributes of vehicles etc

[Panzer]

I really don't see the need for vehicles and infantry have different kinds of statlines tbh.

[Schlitzaf]

What edition in terms of durability are folks trying to emulate? The case of Gaurdsman v Marines. Has basically been true sense 5th if not earlier. Yeah Bolters do not insta gib Gaurdsman anymore.

 

But on that same token, sense when were we shooting a unit of Gaurdsman that was not in cover? What suddenly changed in 8th that wasn’t true in 5th-7th about the comparisons of Gaurdsman.

 

And I just want to put this out there. Every time I hear someone say “Marines +1 Save against AP 0” and lesser extent two wounds per marine (which I do believe all non-Primaris non-characters Power Armordd Marines could just benefit from having +1W (but no not additional) attack. Would be one of the easiest changes best help vs balance. Terminators I’d seriously increase base IV to 4+. And allow them to ignore -1 to hit)). Or even increasing the rend or otherwise. It wouldn’t exactly be fun sitting across from a Marine army.

 

Through I echo another poster, I think the best idea I did here was the following one;

When a model that has 4+ save or worse rolls a save caused a Astartes Unit, subtract 1 from its save. Or have it written a Astartes Model Attacks/shoots an Non-Astartes with 4+ or worse armor save increase its weapons rend by 1.

 

I think I am gonna compile thread with lists of suggestions one of these days

[Panzer]

To be completely honest I don't really care much about the Guardsmen vs Marines comparison aside of CP generation. What kills Marines isn't Guardsmen, it's the dozens of special and heavy weapons in every list.

[Dracos]

What edition in terms of durability are folks trying to emulate? The case of Gaurdsman v Marines. Has basically been true sense 5th if not earlier. Yeah Bolters do not insta gib Gaurdsman anymore.

 

But on that same token, sense when were we shooting a unit of Gaurdsman that was not in cover? What suddenly changed in 8th that wasn’t true in 5th-7th about the comparisons of Gaurdsman.

 

I only played in 5th for a while so I wouldn't say but 2nd through 4th I'd drop an assault squad in the backfield of Guard and wipe out thirty infantry with heavy weapons if I set it up tight. It use to be LRBT and Basilisk that were the bane of Marines versus Guard.

 

The AP and melee game mechanics suck for elite infantry ... period. I trembe to think what you guys dealt with in 6th and 7th that makes you so complacent about how ineffective PA and Bolters 

[UnkyHamHam]

I have been thinking a lot about this, and I am not sure if anyone has thrown it out yet.

 

What about for the Transhuman Physiology giving all infantry/bikes with the Adeptus/Heretic Astartes keywords a -1 to wound? With the addendum that a 6 always wounds.

[Ishagu]

I just want to remind people once again that Marines were no better, and even less resilient in 6th and 7th edition. There were so many weapons and units that just erased squads without us ever rolling dice.

 

They only worked in 7th because of the formation allowing an MSU horde with free transports. Have people really forgotten this? Marines were literally outnumbering Guard on the table last edition.

[Panzer]

I just want to remind people once again that Marines were no better, and even less resilient in 6th and 7th edition. There were so many weapons and units that just erased squads without us ever rolling dice.

They only worked in 7th because of the formation allowing an MSU horde with free transports. Have people really forgotten this? Marines were literally outnumbering Guard on the table last edition.

^this

Sure they were more resilient against Assault Cannons and such (which wounded them on a 2+ btw) however that didn't really matter because everyone was just cramming all the grav they could find into their list denying Marines their save completely or just drowned them in dice (T'au with their S7 AP4 spam comes into.mind).

[MARK0SIAN]

I have been thinking a lot about this, and I am not sure if anyone has thrown it out yet.

 

What about for the Transhuman Physiology giving all infantry/bikes with the Adeptus/Heretic Astartes keywords a -1 to wound? With the addendum that a 6 always wounds.

I think that might be a bit much. It would mean that weapons like melta, dreadnought CC weapons and lots of others would only be wounding on a 3+ when really they should definitely be wounding on 2s.

 

I think if you were doing -1 to wound you’d have to set a strength limit on the attacks it applied to.

[Panzer]

Yeah -1 to wound would basically turn them into T5-7 models (S3 on 6+, S4 on 5+, S5-7 on 4+ and S8+ on 3+). That's just slightly less durable than most tanks. I mean I'd be willing to try it but I have my doubts. High Toughness is what defines vehicles and monsters, not infantry.

[UnkyHamHam]

I appreciate the feedback. With limitation it could be feasible.

[Dracos]

It’s slightly more complicated than -1 to hit though. I like it myself. With a 3 point bump per model it would give a resiliency armor saves or a bump in toughness doesn’t satisfy.

 

Miss having Initiative and hitting based on opposing weapon skills. Never understood how that was complicated.?

[PeteySödes]

Miss having Initiative and hitting based on opposing weapon skills. Never understood how that was complicated.?

 

Less complicated then the gymnastics it takes to explain the relationship between modifiers and rerolls this edition...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

GW hands out WS3 like free candy amirite ?!

[autek mor]

just my opinion but i feel GW scored an own goal with the vigilus book. we know they can improve units when they put their mind to it but in order to make your marines better with these new rules then you have to pay a tax in CP when the rules really should be for free. landraiders need to be able to pull out of combat and shoot and power fists should be a flat 2 damage. until then, good luck trying to get competitive players to drop hundreds of pounds/dollars on armies that are not really that great. now i see the value of eldar, their model range is more limited and their rules tend to be strong in several editions. they may be more complicated to play but they are better investment for your money in general for the purpose of playing the game. chances are wave serpents will be good in the next edition while terminators will still suck or dare i say it no longer be an option because.......primaris.

 

i can't think of a quick fix for marine amour saves, may have to come back for that later. 

[Ishagu]

Chainfists are flat 2 damage...

[autek mor]

Chainfists are flat 2 damage...

 

then give them flat 3 against vehicles and monstrous creatures. at this point, players are better off with more expensive hammers to do the same job but better

 

in fact a lot of wargear needs to be revised outside of point costs.

[Dracos]

Anyone really think there is a new Marine Codex coming this year? I hope so but if it is then that would mean a Black Legion Codex also and the other Marine Dex’s following close behind that would be a minimum of 3 power armor books when you include sisters and god help us the Necrons and Grey Knight need some love too.

 

Considering the campaign books are coming out this year I’m less and less confident anyhting substantial is in the works. Unless someone has seen rumors of value elsewhere. If there were signs of different Primaris units in the works I’d have a hope for an Ultima Founding Codex but I’ve seen nothing. Shame too because we can see with Drukhari, Orks and Knights they seem to be in a grove for good Codex. t least the Sisters will be able to smash face with anew range to boot :)

[autek mor]

Anyone really think there is a new Marine Codex coming this year? I hope so but if it is then that would mean a Black Legion Codex also and the other Marine Dex’s following close behind that would be a minimum of 3 power armor books when you include sisters and god help us the Necrons and Grey Knight need some love too.

 

Considering the campaign books are coming out this year I’m less and less confident anyhting substantial is in the works. Unless someone has seen rumors of value elsewhere. If there were signs of different Primaris units in the works I’d have a hope for an Ultima Founding Codex but I’ve seen nothing. Shame too because we can see with Drukhari, Orks and Knights they seem to be in a grove for good Codex. t least the Sisters will be able to smash face with anew range to boot

 

if they want to sell more marine models then there will definitely be a codex this year. marines are the company posters boys after all.

[Panzer]

I highly doubt it.

They sell Marine models just fine without releasing another Codex just by releasing more Marine stuff in campaigns and other supplements.

[MARK0SIAN]

I doubt there’ll be a new codex for a while, not until after another wave of Primaris at least. I honestly think that GW don’t think marines are that bad so in their mind there’s no rush for a new codex. Particularly (as SfPanzer says) they still sell marine models without any real problems. Especially when they release anything new.

 

We marine players are our own worst enemy in that regard, if we actually stopped buying marine stuff then you’d have a new codex next week. But GW knows that will never happen.

[autek mor]

yeah of course they sell but if they want to sell more marines in what is in already expensive hobby then they need to offer better value outside of just looking cool.

 

for example i like terminators, i am well aware that for many editions that they fold to certain units despite being awesome in the fluff but that would not stop me from buying forgeworld 30k gorgon medusa immortals and fielding them for my DIY chapter in 40k. no biggie right? its just one purchase but GW wants me to buy the whole army because it looks so cool and thematic which i would be inclined to do if i liked every model in the range and more of the units i like if they are worth it. if i want to win games then the units which i don't like i will buy if the rules are good if that's what helps me from getting tabled by turn 2, rules that should be put in a well written codex that would reduce the need for FAQs, chapter approved and campaign books that upgrade units that they knew were not good enough for beginner players to have a good chance.

 

if there is no codex with the much needed solid rules then i am more than content to look at my five metal original sternguard marines that didn't wear the loincloths instead of buying a few boxes of the the new shiny plastic reivers.

 

on a positive note, i like what they are doing with the crimson fists,