I really want to be sold on tsons

[durdle-durdle]

I’ve always been a fan of the thousand sons, and when their book came out in 7th, I almost dropped my blood angels like a disease in favor of thousand sons. After having been threatened by my wife for not having painted all the blood angels I had bought, I stuck with them.

 

Now, one of my friends recently bought death guard a few weeks ago, and he keeps trying to sell me on tsons, so we can have opposing armies.

 

I really love the models and fluff. As a lovecraft horror fan, I love the idea of cultists, and a Cthulhu demon prince flying around summoning eldritch horrors. I love marines, and I like rubrics specifically for their resilience in the face of small arms with decent damage output. I always liked beastmen in fantasy, so the tzangors are really cool to me.

 

The problem i’m Having is that when I look at the rules and the codex, i’m Having trouble figuring out how to build a good army. All the units just seem kind of...not very effective. I’m not sure what i’m Missing, because I have seen reports of them doing very well. OTOH, most those reports seem to focus on magnus, which i would prefer to avoid. Tzangors seem good, but are made of paper, and don’t really seem to have an effective way to cross the board into combat to me. Outside of webway striking them and hoping for a high charge roll anyways. On the same note, while I love the look of the demon engines, they seem very underwhelming with only a 4+ bs and ws. The elite and fast attack sections seem particularly underwhelming. While I love the look of the scarab terminators, they don’t seem especially different from normal terminators, and not very good.

 

I realize I sound like i’m Extremely down on thousand sons, but I really do want to like them. I’d love to get an army of them, but i’m Just struggling to see how the pieces fit. Any advice you guys could give would be greatly appreciated.

 

Edit: i’d Like to note, I don’t consider myself to be hyper competitive. I don’t care too much if I win or lose games, but I do like them to be GOOD games. I’m less focused on “winning” a game than doing various cool things during the game. That said, I do like having a chance of winning. I play against Cadian and steel legion guard, dark eldar, and now death guard, if that helps at all.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I own roughly 8000 points of Thousand Sons. So I own almost everything in the codex barring 1-2 choice picks including a bunch of Forgeworld things (leviathans, 3 contemptors) and have played probably upwards of 100 games throughout 8th edition till now. 

Overall the Thousand Sons are an incredibly solid army. Our field versatility due to having all caster HQs is great. Our base troops Cultists/Tzaangors/Rubrics are all solid with different jobs on the table and perform them well. 

 

Please bare in mind from a rules perspective that Tzaangors are Orks but with a 5++ invul save. I own 50 Tzaangors and regularly do 25/25 or 20/20/10 squads to fill my troops and generally they perform very well as "buff chaff" as it were. They can deal respectable damage and function very well overall.  Rubrics can put threat out on basically anything that is not T8 (str 4 guns) due to that great Ap -2 bolters / flamers and the wonderful soul-reaper cannon. Though they are bad in melee and want to get close to use their great guns.

 

Daemon engines are actually my "go-to" units in the thousand sons list, if anything I consider them to be *THE* daemon engine legion as we got daemonforge, blasphemous machine, and our plethora of easy access buffs for both daemons and vehicles. Maulers and Defilers are truly great walkers and frankly after chapter approved I think they hit far above their weight class and I don't hesitate to take either of them. The Forgefiend IMHO is very solid but you do need to commit support to it. Its grindy and survivable but might be edged out by a Contemptor depending on load out, though personally my forgefiend has worked very well and is usually solid for its point cost. 

 

Elite and Fast are fine, if you take goats 1-2 shamans are great. I love me some Helbrutes for ranged damage support (missile/plasma or las/missile for me!) both chaos Spawn and Enlightened (goats on discs) are phenomenal for their points costs. They are "small" sections, but that does not mean bad. In our case quite the contrary as I don't believe we have a bum choice in either of those slots. 

 

As for Scarab Occult: (again this is just my opinion) we have some of the "best" terminators in 8th though to be fair that bar is pretty low. 8th is unequivocally a "shooting" edition and the Scarab Occult can grind units off the table with ap -2 bolters and reaper/missiles for now a reasonable points cost. They don't wilt like flowers in melee which is good but their real gold star is shooting. If you hit them with a Vets and a Prescience you can easily grind whole squads off the table with their shooting. If I take large units of Scarab Occult or Tzaangors I take a Mutalith Vortex Beast to accompany them because for their points cost they are fantastic. We don't do to shabby in melee if we prep for it. 

 

I have won against competitive players (or at the very least tied) using my Thousand Sons but my real goal to play is Semi-Competitive and Casual lists as I don't generally compete in tournaments. 

TL;DR The codex overall is very solid and the army functions very well.

[durdle-durdle]

So the various psychic powers, would you say are mostly used offensively or for buffing your units?

 

It also seems to me that they would struggle to kill high toughness enemies like vehicles or monstrous creatures. The only anti tank ranged unit I see is the helbrute. Do you find this to be the case? Is anti tank mostly close combat?

 

How do you use tzangors enlightened? Without an armor save, it seems like they would get shot to pieces before getting close to cc.

[BoomWolf]

Part of the beauty, you got plenty enough powers to support AND blast things.

 

High T is an issue for us. Regular solutions include smite, smashing princes into it, or daemon engines. Predators and helbrute are also useful for this, as are some FW units. Skygoats are to some degree useful here too with auto wounds and/or mutalits throwing buffs around.

 

 

We have a small codex, but it's pretty well knitted with every unit (besides classic marine units unfortunately) having a clearly defined use, combos and often are much more flexible than you'd expect (plus, some interactions are pure evil, like the fact skygoats are technically daemons)

[Sonoftherubric21]

So the various psychic powers, would you say are mostly used offensively or for buffing your units?

 

It also seems to me that they would struggle to kill high toughness enemies like vehicles or monstrous creatures. The only anti tank ranged unit I see is the helbrute. Do you find this to be the case? Is anti tank mostly close combat?

 

How do you use tzangors enlightened? Without an armor save, it seems like they would get shot to pieces before getting close to cc.

 

Maulers and Defilers can easily wreck tanks if they make contact. Helbrutes, Forgefiends, Contemptors, Sicarans, and Rubrics with Vets of the Long War (+1 to wound so the ap-2 bolters and reapers are wounding T7 or less on 4's, and wounding T8 on 5's in a pinch) is usually more than enough for most TAC lists. If your fighting someone with 8 leman russes you might have issues   I chose not to put any Predators in my 40k sons as my Black Legion list runs 3 Predators for AT and I didn't want overlap but Predators are solid AT as well if you want them. 

 

Tzaangor Enlightened are fantastic actually even in an anti-tank role. I have 12 all with bows and they regularly perform out of their weight class. Str 5 is the sweet spot for str this edition and their substantial accuracy and mobility makes them dangerous.  They often don't even need spell support due to the Tzaangor Shaman having an aura buff.  For perspective, I regularly play against a Knight-only army and every game his first target is enlightened. The reason for that is the output for their "guns" (bows) is ridiculous with little to no support. Running them is usually 4/4/4 or 6/6 for me. Sometimes I go 9/3. Always take a Shaman if you take this unit. They are extremely point effective. I have also heard tales of large units of Spear enlightened being insanely good (Note: that is not a first-hand  account as all of mine have bows!) 

 

Spells are usually buff oriented with a liberal application of offensive spell casting. My standard in 2k is usually 10-12 casts a turn. 2-3 units of rubrics + several HQ's all chucking spells + a shaman can really output some nasty threat and buffs where needed. Our army benefits for large units due to our buff potential be they goats or rubrics. We lack "Sniper" rule models in our army, this is why we have about 4 spells that allow you to PICK your target. I have had games where Ahriman took all 3 damage spells and picked off a support buff character top of turn 1. Its a mean strategy I only use against people that castle with overlapping buffs. This "mortal wound sniping" is a fun strategy that is relatively reliable but I often put more resources into it (CP re rolls and Spell cast bonus) to guarantee that I nail a critical support piece/hq. Who needs snipers? Ill just have my HQ throw nothing but hatred and harsh language across the board. 

[durdle-durdle]

Do you find the army lacks mobility? I can see the support pieces are fast (disk sorcerers, demon princes), but do you find the slowish nature of rubrics, Helbrutes, and foot tzangors to be an issue?

 

Edit: another issue is that my other army is primaris marines (currently cosplaying as deathwatch.). Rubrics and primaris marines seem kinda samey, trading the +1 wound for +1 save versus d1 weapons and better ap on their bolters (as non deathwatch, anyways.). Would you say this is the case? I realize they have a much bigger psychic presence, but how comparable would you say they are?

[Raven1]

So giving advice would be easier if we saw the lists you were trying to build. For me i look at thier trait and abilities and go from there. That for me being two things an exemption from the Smite nerf (-1 per cast) and +6 to ranges of psychic powers. So i build around pyskers, demon princes and ahriman are in pretty much all of my lists. Tzaangor shamans are good a as they are a cheap full smite. I start pretty much all my lists with a TS battalion and Supreme command detachment.

 

If you are trying to build TS like Blood Angels or other power armor than its probably just not going to work.

 

+1 to Tzaangors are just like Orks but with a 5++

 

Cultists are good even at 5 points but we dont use them like CSM so no large hoardes mostly 10 man to fill a battalion and hold back field objectives.

 

Dark matter crystal, webway strike, and warptime help with foot based armies. For if they start on the board with no support their purpose is to stay in my depoylment zone or at least my half of the board, to obfuscate deepstrike and hold objectives. Supported units or deepstrikers are going to hit the opponents deployment zone.

[durdle-durdle]

Thanks raven, those are some good points. I’ll try and play with some lists later to throw up and see if i’m Understanding how to build their list.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Do you find the army lacks mobility? I can see the support pieces are fast (disk sorcerers, demon princes), but do you find the slowish nature of rubrics, Helbrutes, and foot tzangors to be an issue?

 

Edit: another issue is that my other army is primaris marines (currently cosplaying as deathwatch.). Rubrics and primaris marines seem kinda samey, trading the +1 wound for +1 save versus d1 weapons and better ap on their bolters (as non deathwatch, anyways.). Would you say this is the case? I realize they have a much bigger psychic presence, but how comparable would you say they are?

 

I rarely have mobility issues. 

 

The Dark Matter Crystal combined with Warptime and a Rhino or 2 (and Tzaangors having a 10 point speed bonus upgrade in the brayhorn) + disc supports and walkers already being reasonably fast with base movement 8-12 is more than enough in most circumstances.  Scarab Occult have easy access to deepstrike to land where they need to be top of 2 so its not a huge concern. 

 

As for the Primaris: the Thousand Sons builds can vary wildly. Everything from a "beastmaster" style list to a Marine spam list much like your primaris. The Rubricae are vaugely similar to them in many respects with the Primaris and Rubrics falling in to *roughly* the same wheelhouse on the table. Bolters with an AP value, though the rubric shooting is better and the primaris melee is better. 

 

The innate Invul in the vast majority of our army is fantastic (usually having an easy access 5++ on damn near everything) and is the biggest dividing point between the Rubricae and the Primaris. 

[Paladin777]

Just keep in mind that thousand sons are hammer type army as opposed to an anvil type army. They are not your ‘come at me bro’ gun line, but rather excel at and reward aggressive play with a lot very powerful combos.

[durdle-durdle]

Would you say it is worth setting aside points to summon daemons? And if so, what type?

[Paladin777]

I have no personal experience, but the general concensus is its better to just take an allied detachment. That is unless you want to summon the changeling or another easy to summon support character.

[Raven1]

Would you say it is worth setting aside points to summon daemons? And if so, what type?

No.

1) you are paying for points not on the table top and whem bring them its based on rolla as to what power level you can bring on the table.

2) you looe the benefits/command points an allied demon detachment bring.

 

I like to run a tzeentch demons detachment. The powers are good, the abilities mesh nicely with TS units, and have cheap chaff. 3 points for a 6++

[BoomWolf]

Summoning is currently pointless. To many hoops to jump and too many risks, and you are not even getting anything out of the deal really.

[Lucky_Lee]

 

Would you say it is worth setting aside points to summon daemons? And if so, what type?

No.

1) you are paying for points not on the table top and whem bring them its based on rolla as to what power level you can bring on the table.

2) you looe the benefits/command points an allied demon detachment bring.

 

I like to run a tzeentch demons detachment. The powers are good, the abilities mesh nicely with TS units, and have cheap chaff. 3 points for a 6++

Summoning is currently pointless. To many hoops to jump and too many risks, and you are not even getting anything out of the deal really.

There is something to be said for choosing what you want to summon on the fly. Leaving 150pts open with all of the character options we have isn't completely awful.

 

Am I expecting a charge or wanna punish a failed one? Boom- flamers.

 

Wanna tie up a big beasty or tank? Bam- instant horrors.

 

It isn't competitive but I also wouldn't call it useless. Especially since you can use those same points to turn lieutenants into chaos spawn. And let's face it, we all play Thousand Sons for the "just as planned..."

 

Durdle-man I'm also building my Thousand Sons. I say play 1kSons if you want an army with the best HQ's chaos has to offer. (Arguably in the game) we got tough troops and some hard hitting close combat ability. Now we can't have it all, thats why you splash knights.

 

#magnusdidnothingwrong

[durdle-durdle]

Thank you all for your advice. I think i was picturing how thousand sons would work incorrectly (I.e. generic marines). You’ve all given me a lot to think about and I appreciate it.

 

I think I see some goat men and dusty marines in my future