Vigilus Army Builds

[sultansean]

So with vigilus offering the extra warlord trait for an extra attack, has any one thought about stacking the special warlord trait, with saga of the wolfkin and wolfen for 3 extra attacks? It might be challenging to pull off since the Sagas only trigger at the end of a phase.  I think it could make big units of blood claws, or even grey hunters quite strong.   

[faithonwings]

Considert yes, but like you say. It is very hard to pull off both Saga's and since the only trigger at the end of a phase and the HQ's carrying them will only see combat as early as turn 2 you are looking at using the power as early as turn 3. By the most of the game has been played en a lot of your troops will be dead anyway. I don't think it will be viable I'm afraid but I would love to be proven wrong.

[Jackalwolf]

What's this new trait exactly?

[PeteySödes]

What's this new trait exactly?

Same as Wolfkin but you have to charge and the deed I’d 5 wounds in a single phase.

 

It’s certainly worth the 2 cp IMO for just the trait and Feild commander if your running a smash jarl but if your CP starved it’d be harder.

[Jackalwolf]

Thanks! Looks cool, will need to read it in detail since I plan on 10x WGTDA with Arjac and Priest with wulfen stone, if I can add yet another attack they'll be crazy!

[PeteySödes]

Yea its really good, easier and faster to fulfill the deed givin the right equipment but its not quite as strong since its only via the charge vs. charged/HI.

[faithonwings]

Can you give the trait to a Wolf Lord? Or does it have to be a WGBL?

 

Even so, you would need two smash wolf lords... quite expensive. Also, the stratagems that come with this will only be ussefull for WGBL, Blood Claws and Reivers in the detachment I believe. So again, not sure if it's worth it.

[Kallas]

Can't be a Wolf Lord, Battle Leaders only.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Can't be a Wolf Lord, Battle Leaders only.

 

Quite a good way to make Primaris Battle Leaeders beatsticks.

[Coverfire]

Can I just ask...

 

So taking a Specialist detachment does give you the second Warlord Trait? I originally read it as that but subsequently assumed I was wrong. Is it the same for the relic?

[Kallas]

Can I just ask...

 

So taking a Specialist detachment does give you the second Warlord Trait? I originally read it as that but subsequently assumed I was wrong. Is it the same for the relic?

It gives you access to the Trait/Relic, but you still need to 'allocate' them the same way as normal Warlord Traits/Relics, with the exception of the Field Commander Stratagem allowing you to pay CP for a secondary Warlord for the Trait only.

[Coverfire]

 

Can I just ask...

 

So taking a Specialist detachment does give you the second Warlord Trait? I originally read it as that but subsequently assumed I was wrong. Is it the same for the relic?

It gives you access to the Trait/Relic, but you still need to 'allocate' them the same way as normal Warlord Traits/Relics, with the exception of the Field Commander Stratagem allowing you to pay CP for a secondary Warlord for the Trait only.

 

 

So I need to pay the CP for using the Specialist detachment [stalker Pack] and then another if I want the second Warlord trait [Field Commander]

[Kallas]

So I need to pay the CP for using the Specialist detachment [stalker Pack] and then another if I want the second Warlord trait [Field Commander]

You can choose to have your Warlord to have the Specialist Detachment Warlord Trait without paying the cost, but then you cannot have a 'regular' Warlord Trait. That model must also be a part of the Specialist Detachment (Stalker Pack, so must be a Wolf Guard Battle Leader of some variety).

 

You can take a normal Warlord Trait (Wolf Lord, Rune Priest, whatever) and pay CP for the Field Commander Stratagem to have a WGBL be a secondary Warlord (who gains the benefits of the Warlord Trait, but is not the Warlord for any other purposes; eg, Slay The Warlord) in addition to the first, primary Warlord.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

So I need to pay the CP for using the Specialist detachment [stalker Pack] and then another if I want the second Warlord trait [Field Commander]

You can choose to have your Warlord to have the Specialist Detachment Warlord Trait without paying the cost, but then you cannot have a 'regular' Warlord Trait. That model must also be a part of the Specialist Detachment (Stalker Pack, so must be a Wolf Guard Battle Leader of some variety).

 

You can take a normal Warlord Trait (Wolf Lord, Rune Priest, whatever) and pay CP for the Field Commander Stratagem to have a WGBL be a secondary Warlord (who gains the benefits of the Warlord Trait, but is not the Warlord for any other purposes; eg, Slay The Warlord) in addition to the first, primary Warlord.

 

 

One of the combos I can envision is that with two sagas and deeds of legend, we can potentially have the following combos:

 

1) Saga of Wolfkin and Saga of Savage - increases attack of two characters, and if they complete deed of legend (kill 5 models and inflict 5 wounds in a single combat round respectively), you  units could potentially get two overlapping auras for a total of +2 attacks. This is for the cost of 2 CP though, 1 for Specialist detachment, 1 for Field Commander to give another warlord trait.

 

Difficulty: QUITE DIFFICULT. Obviously both must make it into combat, for a RP with Jump Pack and casting Freki and Geri, it's relatively easy to get the Deed of Legend for Saga of Wolfkin. For Saga of Savage its a bit more difficult as he must infict 5 wounds ON A SINGLE MODEL in a SINGLE PHASE as I interpret it. Again Rune Priest maybe the best person, but he must target something with more than 5 wounds to have a chance to do it.

 

Bear in mind it says SINGLE PHASE, so this can mean Psychic, Shooting and Fight phase. so we can potentially pull this one off in the psychic phase via smite and living lightning or Jaws. 

 

In both cases, going to take a lot of positioning to pull both off. So overall, this is QUITE DIFFICULT to pull off the Deeds of Legend together and give overlapping +1 attacks for a total of +2 attacks to other units.

 

2) Saga of Beast Slayer with Saga of Savage - This is interesting as accomplishing the deed of legend overlaps each other. First both must charge a > 5 wound model, most likely a Vehicle or Monster of a sort. Then the guy with Savage goes first and inflicts 5 wounds either through fist or Thunderhammer, shouldn't be too difficult even for a regular Battle Leader. Then the guy with Beast Slayer attacks finishes off the target. By end of turn, both will have activated their Deeds of legend.

 

Relatively Easy

 

3) Saga of Hunter with Saga of Savage - Relatively Easy as well due to just needing to charge same target. Most difficult part is finding a target with >5 wounds and positioning.

 

4) Saga of Bear with Saga of Savage- Relatively Easy and can be accomplished independently. Usefulness may vary, personally I don't like 6+ FNP.

 

5) Saga of Majesty/Saga of Warrior Born with Saga of Savage - Super difficult due to Majesty stupidly difficult deed of legend, and ultimately not very useful.

 

Overall, having the Specialist Detachment and field commander might not be such a bad idea. As in everything else in the codex, we've got to think carefully when committing to assault.

 

So far my policy is still shoot first, charge later, so my Deeds of Legend is normally done around Turn 3 or 4. One day I have to play more aggressively, but the danger is that most of the Warlord Traits requires our lords to be in the thick of combat, which can potentially leave them exposed to retaliation, either in counter attack or opponent shooting phase.

 

Hope this idea helps.

[Kallas]

Honestly, the Stalker Pack isn't particularly good at all.

 

Warlord Trait: As Kasper notes, it's not particularly easy against chaff for WGBLs to get off, although it does help them hit harder versus bigger things. Not great for 1-2CP off the bat.

 

Relic: Ironfang is pretty crap. At least it's attached to a Power Axe and not just a Frost Axe, but it's just not decent enough to worth justifying it over the Armour of Russ or Wulfen Stone - so it'd be a 2CP investment (you're already taking those two Relics, right?)

 

Pack Killers: For 1CP it's not too bad, but it's functionally just a reroll with a caveat (well, three caveats: a Stalker Pack unit must first successfully charge; a second Stalker Pack unit is within 12"; and you have to pay for the Stalker Pack itself). Not great.

 

Blood Scent: For 2CP it could be a potent buff and considering +To Wound buffs aren't especially common, but it's again packed with a few caveats that really dilute its effectiveness. Must be an enemy INFANTRY/MONSTER unit (plenty of Infantry, although not a huge amount that are of great concern for Blood Claws et al already), must have suffered a wound previously (not too difficult to pull off, at least), and of course only affects Stalker Pack units.

 

And then it's only Blood Claws, WGBLs and Reivers. Blood Claws are fine, as are WGBLs, but they're often not particularly big CP sinks - we have Wulfen and other, more potent, units that want to take up CP expenditure for more effective Stratagems such as Honour the Chapter (Wulfen), Keen Senses/Wolf's Eye (Long Fangs), and miscellaneous ones like Cloaked by the Storm, Chooser of the Slain, and Only In Death. Reivers? Just no.

 

Even if one is packing in a bunch of Blood Claws as their Troops, it's not a great way to spend CP. Saga of the Savage is an ok buff, but for 1.5/2CP? Meh.

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ Kallas - Sorry Kallas, can I request a change of paradigm view here? I know we all think and have said many many many times already that the Stalker Pack isn't as good or efficient compared to other specialist detachments. It's going to be continually depressing for you and others to keep stating it when others still want to try it out, inefficient or not. Who know, you and I might be wrong after more playtesting and less theoryhammer.

 

So for this thread at least, let's try make a list that uses the Stalker Detachment according to our own ideas and understanding. Forgot the competitive and comparisons first, as per the OP, let's just try it out rather than continually put it down.

 

I'm speaking to myself too by the way.

 

For my part, I'll take some of my lunch time to do a list with Stalker Detachment later and then post it and my strategy around it.

[Kallas]

@ Kallas - Sorry Kallas, can I request a change of paradigm view here? I know we all think and have said many many many times already that the Stalker Pack isn't as good or efficient compared to other specialist detachments. It's going to be continually depressing for you and others to keep stating it when others still want to try it out, inefficient or not. Who know, you and I might be wrong after more playtesting and less theoryhammer.

 

So for this thread at least, let's try make a list that uses the Stalker Detachment according to our own ideas and understanding. Forgot the competitive and comparisons first, as per the OP, let's just try it out rather than continually put it down.

 

I mean, sure, make lists and try them. The Stalker Pack element won't be the driving force, because it's extremely limited.

 

Blood Claws can't carry a list, unless you're literally using just them.

 

However, to give something a little more on the nose, here's a list that I thought might be interesting - which I also thought up before Vigilus, so it just straight up 'benefits' from the Stalker Pack:

Double Battalion:

Wolf Lord (JP, TH, SS, Warlord - Beastslayer)

Rune Priest (JP, Sword, Hood, Combi-Melta)

2x WGBL (JP, TH, SS)

 

6x Blood Claws (4); Pack Leader (Power Fist); WGPL (Power Fist, Storm Shield)

 

6x Razorback (Twin Lascannon)

 

1750pts

 

Basically just a Blood Claw rush with a half dozen packs in Razorbacks. Two Power Fists in each unit for some extra punch against hard targets; LasBacks can threaten at range while protected by Storm Caller/Cloaked by the Storm (honestly, I can't make lists that aren't mechanised; I just can't find any way to get bodies across the field/to survive in general any other way).

 

The Stalker Pack would add a little bit, but also bear in mind that it'd cost 2CP to make both detachments Stalker Packs. Blood Scent would be alright if a few units can dogpile a tough enemy, especially if the Armour of Russ can join in; Pack Killers can help a little, but probably unnecessary generally. I wouldn't touch Saga of the Savage, if I'm honest - I'd much rather have that CP available for rerolls/stratagems elsewheres. Ironfang I won't touch with a ten foot pole.

 

I get the point of the thread. There just isn't much to discuss... We get a crap Relic, a mediocre Trait, one ok Stratagem (Blood Scent), and one mediocre Stratagem (Pack Killers).

 

Not sure there's any secret combos in there to be 'found' 

Sorry.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

However, to give something a little more on the nose, here's a list that I thought might be interesting - which I also thought up before Vigilus, so it just straight up 'benefits' from the Stalker Pack:

Double Battalion:

Wolf Lord (JP, TH, SS, Warlord - Beastslayer)

Rune Priest (JP, Sword, Hood, Combi-Melta)

2x WGBL (JP, TH, SS)

 

6x Blood Claws (4); Pack Leader (Power Fist); WGPL (Power Fist, Storm Shield)

 

6x Razorback (Twin Lascannon)

 

1750pts

 

Basically just a Blood Claw rush with a half dozen packs in Razorbacks. Two Power Fists in each unit for some extra punch against hard targets; LasBacks can threaten at range while protected by Storm Caller/Cloaked by the Storm (honestly, I can't make lists that aren't mechanised; I just can't find any way to get bodies across the field/to survive in general any other way).

 

The Stalker Pack would add a little bit, but also bear in mind that it'd cost 2CP to make both detachments Stalker Packs. Blood Scent would be alright if a few units can dogpile a tough enemy, especially if the Armour of Russ can join in; Pack Killers can help a little, but probably unnecessary generally. I wouldn't touch Saga of the Savage, if I'm honest - I'd much rather have that CP available for rerolls/stratagems elsewheres. Ironfang I won't touch with a ten foot pole.

 

 

thanks for understanding Kallas, believe me when I say most of your posts have merit and make sense. I like your list though I would argue you don't HAVE to take 2 battalions worth, one Battalion filled with Blood Claws should be enough for Stalker, then use a Vanguard/Spearhead Detachment for the other warlord trait and heavy weapons. will post more ideas after this.

[Kallas]

thanks for understanding Kallas, believe me when I say most of your posts have merit and make sense. I like your list though I would argue you don't HAVE to take 2 battalions worth, one Battalion filled with Blood Claws should be enough for Stalker, then use a Vanguard/Spearhead Detachment for the other warlord trait and heavy weapons. will post more ideas after this.

 

Well, the list was actually meant to be that many Blood Claws for target saturation, and the double Battalion is for the necessary CP! Like I said, it was conceived before Vigilus was released, so I didn't have Stalker Packs in mind. Dropping down to three units of Blood Claws would probably be fine, but it'd need some other things to take the heat away from the main assault force, probably something like two Stormfangs loaded with anti-tank (would could potentially free up the Blood Claws to not run Power Fists, I suppose).

 

I don't ever feel comfortable running anything less than double Battalion any more, as CP are just so damn important! Dropping from 13 -> 8 is a huge deal, I've found. Honour the Chapter, for example, is pretty damn powerful when you need it but it is expensive. We have numerous Stratagems that we want to use most turns (Keen Senses, Cloaked by the Storm, even just rerolls) as well as the clutch ones (Honour the Chapter, Only In Death) so having the extra CP is of great importance. It's one of the reasons I find list building difficult, because I'm often falling back on Grey Hunters, and then needing to fork out for transports (otherwise they just wilt) and then not having much left to play with!

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

I don't ever feel comfortable running anything less than double Battalion any more, as CP are just so damn important! Dropping from 13 -> 8 is a huge deal, I've found. Honour the Chapter, for example, is pretty damn powerful when you need it but it is expensive. We have numerous Stratagems that we want to use most turns (Keen Senses, Cloaked by the Storm, even just rerolls) as well as the clutch ones (Honour the Chapter, Only In Death) so having the extra CP is of great importance. It's one of the reasons I find list building difficult, because I'm often falling back on Grey Hunters, and then needing to fork out for transports (otherwise they just wilt) and then not having much left to play with!

 

 

You know what, I believe your point about NEEDING two battalions for 13 CP. Without ways of regenerating, and without cheating by using loyal 32 (OK, maybe cheating is a strong word, just my own opinion), we will be hard pressed to use our strategems let alone the Vigilus ones.

 

Anyway, here's my proposed list using Stalker

 

1st Stalker Battalion

 

Battle leader with JP, TH, Armour of Russ, Stormbolter Saga of Savage

Rune Priest, JP, Axe, PP, Runic Armour

 

5 Blood Claws with fist

5 Blood Claws with fist

8 Blood Claws with fist, double claw WGPL

 

2 Rhinos

 

6 man reivers with chutes

3 man inceptors with plasma exterminators

 

Second Battalion

Bjorn with Plasma Cannon, Saga of Majesty

RP with sword and PP (Living Lightning and Freki

 

5 Blood Claws with fist

5 Blood Claws with fist

8 Grey Hunter man plasma, WG with combi-plasma and Claw

 

2 Rhinos

 

5 man Long Fangs with 4 heavy bolters and a terminator guard with assault cannon

5 man long fangs with multi melta

 

 

Not quite a pure CC list, but I'm the kind of guy who is very uncomfortable leaving his big guns at home. Lots of Blood Claws and a token reiver squad, with lots of close in support via Inceptors, Plasma Grey Hunters, and outflanking either Long Fang squad. I want Bjorn because he has a massive reroll aura due to his big base, and despite Hunters Unleashed, we still need our rerolls to hit. He is quite speedy as well for a dreadnought and of course is a monster in CC. 

 

Will extoll my strategy later.

[Kasper_Hawser]

So regarding my list above, the general plan is to have my 4 Rhinos rush forward in middle. the 4 rhinos will be filled with all the blood claws and Grey Hunters, 2 5 man squads riding together with the exception of one 5 man blood claw, who will instead run behind. The 5 man with 4 Multimelta Long fang will ride in one with another 5 Blood claws. This is basically to paint a "SHOOT ME" target at the Long Fang rhino. This will hopefully make the enemy NOT target the Blood Claw and Grey Hunter squads where the main CC strength is. Bjorn and other HQs  rushes advances forward. Even if Bjorn rolls bad for his advance rolls, at least his aura will be 9".

 

Meanwhile with outflanking heavy bolter + terminator Long Fang squad, the enemy will hopefully keep some of their units on the board edges. And lately, I've not been underestimating the power of heavy bolters against heavy armour, especially with Keen Senses and Wolf's Eye. Of course this costs a total of 3CP, 4 CP if you want to use Hellfire rounds as well. But if I can catch a tank or monster offguard and bring it down, then I think 4CP is worth it. Besides, it'll wound everyone and make them vulnerable to the Stalker Strategem.

 

Not the most efficient, but as this is 8th edition, 4 Rhinos rushing up is much more likely to survive even if the enemy has 4 heavy weapon teams. And no heavy weapon team is better than our Long Fangs. If I get 1st turn, this is the turn where while rushing up, everyone pops smoke, the RP on Jump pack casts storm caller, and if possible, Cloak by Storm as well.

 

Of course this relies on the Rhinos rushing in close enough for turn 2 charge, which will only be likely on long table edged deployment or that weird quarter table empty circle deployment. If it's a short table edge, then have to be much more careful while rushing forward. Have to time the Long Fangs arriving with the Blood Claws Rhino rush.

[Guest Triszin]

The relic axe isn't that bad. It has more damage output than the codex frost axe relic.

 

And wouldn't the stalker warlord trait be best on a thunder wolf lord? The extra couple of attacks from the mount might help "a little" in triggering it.

still the stalker strats and trait seem a little unnecessarily gated.

 

I think it should be 5-10 total unsaved wounds for activation. Then you could take a stalker pattern lord and still have a chance of activating it

[Kallas]

Ironfang is pretty bad because Frost Axes are unfortunately bad. On a WS2+ Character, a Power Fist is just better (higher Strength, better AP, same damage, cheaper, and not a relic slot!)

 

We already have one amazing relic (Armour of Russ) and one good one (Wulfen Stone). Buying more than one additional relic, on top of the Specialist Detachment is very expensive, and those two relics should certainly take priority.

[PeteySödes]

Ironfang is pretty bad because Frost Axes are unfortunately bad. On a WS2+ Character, a Power Fist is just better (higher Strength, better AP, same damage, cheaper, and not a relic slot!)

 

We already have one amazing relic (Armour of Russ) and one good one (Wulfen Stone). Buying more than one additional relic, on top of the Specialist Detachment is very expensive, and those two relics should certainly take priority.

 

1+ even when you think about it, plus hammers proc that deed if your doing the double warlord trait. That axe has the same issue as helfrost, I want to minimize randomness and mitigate the dice not encourage it.

[Guest Triszin]

Question what the exact wording on the relic axe. Is it on a 6. Add d3 mortal wounds. Or is it for every wound roll of 6 change the dam to d3 mortals