Captain Idaho Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 So how are people feeling towards these excellent tanks post Chapter Approved? The points drop is delicious. 264pts for a Crusader is amazing - all that anti-infantry firepower. 297pts for a standard Land Raider is still fairly good though not an automatic inclusion. 4 Lascannons and 2 Heavy Bolters still look tasty. I believe a Techmarine to run alongside whilst fulfilling the mandatory HQ choice (Also reduced in points) is a strong choice. Restoring D3 wounds a turn on a T8, 2+ save vehicle will be a pain in the rear. Add to this a Might of Heroes and possibly even Tigurius for -1 to hit and it's possible that a T9 Devastator squad and a Half might be a terrible thorn in everyone's side. What do people think here? And what of Chronus? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 Crusaders shred chaff. How do they fare in terms of survivability ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5225701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 31, 2018 Author Share Posted December 31, 2018 T8 and 2+ save? Fairly well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5225712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unseen Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 Their definitely less "punch yourself in the dick" over-priced now. I'd say in a meta with Imperial Knights everywhere, they probably aren't as tough as they should be, but their probably reasonable. Big remaining issue is for the Crusader and Redeemer, to use its weapons or deliver stuff, they have to get close to the enemy. And a land raider locked in combat is more or less effectively dead as far as usefulness is concerned. So you have to get close, but you can't let the enemy get any closer.... which seems problematic when its still nearly 300 pts. Pay just a smidge more and you get a Knight, that shoots less, but punches much more, and can just walk out of combat if it wants too. The original Raider suffers from the same schizophrenic tendencies its always had. Your paying a lot of points for a really resilient body that can carry things, that doesn't want to actually carry things. You can buy 2 Dev squads with 4 lascannons each for a single raider. Yeah, they aren't as tough vs small arms or plasma, but they soak lascannons a lot better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5225764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 I'm a big fan. I'd stick to transporting a unit that has medium ranged shooting, and keep the Landraider as a tough fire support unit. T8 and a 2+ save is very significant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5225918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astartes Consul Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 I like the idea of Sternguard and a character in a Land Raider and using it as an objective grabber / medium range fire support unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5225996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 1, 2019 Author Share Posted January 1, 2019 Sternguard are kinda useful at charging when need be. As a mop up unit after shooting whatever they fancied at least. I don't know if I want to risk it but 8 Cataphractii Terminators in a Crusader could make a splash? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5226052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 T8 and 2+ sounds good on paper but there are armies like dark eldar that can shred them quickly... lances, blasters and haywire. I just tend to see them as more often a liability. I do still like the Crusader due to its high ROF. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5226106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Yeah, even my Castellan doesn't survive long against Eldar variants.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5226108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 1, 2019 Author Share Posted January 1, 2019 Eldar are Eldar eh. They're always ruining the game! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5226110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamiel Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 I've always been a proponent of looking at what you're paying for and making the most use out of it. It seems like Landraiders and Repulsors (compared to Knights and Baneblades ect) bring the ability of transporting troops. You're not getting that for free, sadly. You're actually paying for it, although I can't work out the math behind how much exactly we're paying for the ability to transport. I see the ability to transport as almost like a hidden upgrade that we're paying an unknown amount of points for. Seems to me that if you want something that is just good at shooting and being durable, choosing things that can't transport units will always be more cost efficient. For this reason, if you want a purely shooty Space Marines giant tank, I'd just go all the way and get the Astreus. It's about ~700pts with all of its weapons, but you get exactly what you pay for. It's also flying, so it can't be tied in melee. If you're buying a landraider, I'd say you need to make use of its unique ability to transport troops and put something punchy in there - like assault terminators. That's just me, though. I personally hate seeing empty landraiders/repulsors. Unless they've already unloaded their troops, or the enemy's army gives no reason to use transport. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5226316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astartes Consul Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Sternguard are kinda useful at charging when need be. As a mop up unit after shooting whatever they fancied at least. I don't know if I want to risk it but 8 Cataphractii Terminators in a Crusader could make a splash? I feel like that would be utterly devastating...when it worked. IMO it would become such a bullet magnet that the chances of the Land Raider surviving long enough to get the terminators into effective range are going to be low. Of course that means plenty of other things in your list will be ignored by the enemy during the shooting phase. But it is a lot of points to pay for a distraction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5226319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 Yeah it would likely only work against some opponents. Vanguard are nice and cheap and can go into a Land Raider nicely enough. Teleport some Cataphractii onto the table and you got a couple of threats there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5226539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 Been thinking about the old tried and tested method of saturation. 2 Land Raiders in a Space Marines list with Techmarine support? The old Grey Knights players used to love it. Personally it's a big commitment but that is a lot of firepower much harder to take down than Devastator squads. *** Ultimately I think we do have to consider the transportation options. Land Raiders save on Rhino cost and many of us use a single Rhino at least. Putting a squad into the Land Raider instead saves 72pts so we can take that off the cost in our consideration ;) I don't have problems with my vehicle being charged to be fair. Units disembark first 3", move 6" then charge another 2D6" so the Land Raider should have a healthy distance between it and most counter chargers. Jump Pack troops and bikes can reach you but then that's 40K. To be fair, I'd prefer opposing units to bounce off my Land Raider and stop it shooting a turn than mulch my important infantry so it is interesting to see what happens in a game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5226577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuarterPounder Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 What are folks' thoughts on using a Land Raider in a gunline army with a strong counter charge unit inside? Throw some cheaper Vanguard that can still pack a punch and dare the enemy to come close. Alternatively, what are the thoughts on using the transport capacity simply as first turn protection? IE, put your most valuable troops in there in case you don't get first turn. Curious to get thoughts... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5276124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exilyth Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 In a 1500 pts game, ~300 pts is 20% of the army. In a 2000 pts game, ~300 pts is 15% of the army. Dedicating 1/5 to 1/6 of the army to one unit is a tough choice - especially when many units in a similar points range perform similar roles with more efficiency. Having to take two for redundancy can hurt even more. The land raider (and variants) suffers from the same problems since its inception: doing too much in one chassis which leads to heavily inflated point costs, making it a jack of all trades while being a master of none. The basic Land Raider competes with Repulsors for the transport and antitank roles. The Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer competes with Stormravens for the transport and antiinfantry roles. Ignoring the transport capacity, two dakkabots come out costing slightly more than one land raider crusader/redeemer. Similarly, ven dreads, devastators and/or razorbacks can fill the antitank role of the basic Land Raider cheaper. So, a Land Raider should be picked with the transport capacity in mind. Which brings us to the next problem: What to transport in a LR? The best choice for delivery via land raider would be terminators, centurions or assault marines with jump packs, which don't have (m)any other transport options. Everything else could just as well ride a Razorback or Rhino. Except for maybe vanguard veterans, sternguard or a similar units high in points cost and (relatively) low in defense. Then again: might as well drop vanguard/sternguard in via a Stormraven. And a dreadnought too. Terminators are rather pricy this edition. Assault Marines - would be an option, but if they're getting transported, may as well go without jump packs - which would bring the Land Raider dangerously close to the enemy. I don't have experience with centurions - would assault centurions be a good payload for a land raider? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5276166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 14, 2019 Author Share Posted March 14, 2019 I think Assault Terminators and Centurions are the only units that needs a Land Raider really. Vanguard can get Jump Packs for so cheap after all. As assault platforms with Heavy weapons, Land Raiders aren't too bad. They can easily get a unit close enough so they can debark 3", move 4/5" then assault 2D6 and the Land Raider can then back off if needed. It works well enough so being charged isn't much of a concern compared to other shooting platforms. The one problem is points. They are so expensive! You get some good guns for the pleasure but the transported unit is quite expensive also. I suspect, if Terminators with Thunder Hammers, Power Fists and Chainfists hit on a 3+ we'd see plenty more of them. Terminators need a boost in that regard. (Funnily enough my own suggestions a while ago worked nicely as Marines and their vehicles would get bonuses to survivability and killing potential and I suggested Terminators also get 3 wounds and WS/BS 2+) The way I see it, if players consider 2 Repulsors as a reasonable choice then 2 Land Raiders are also a reasonable choice. Similar points (less for the Crusader) but the Land Raider has superior survivability for slightly less guns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5276177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 The Land Raider also lacks Fly, which really is a major boon to the Repulsor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5276186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Imo the only problem the Landraider has is that it can't FLY like the Repulsor so it's less mobile and you can't push it as deep into the enemy lines without wasting lots of points for its weapons. However a flying Land Raider would be the Storm Raven (or the Repulsor) I guess. ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5276192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 14, 2019 Author Share Posted March 14, 2019 Since when has anyone pushed a Repulsor deep into enemy lines though? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5276225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Well I already consider the middle of the board deep unless one is facing a gunline and I see Repulsors getting moved there regularly. ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5276237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 14, 2019 Author Share Posted March 14, 2019 Middle of the board is middle of the board. Land Raiders can operate perfectly well in that location. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5276251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the semantics. Fact though is that the Landraider can't move much around without risking to get charged and made incapable of using his expensive weapons unlike the Repulsor and the Stormraven who see much more use while being otherwise very similar vehicles except for being able to fly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5276254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 14, 2019 Author Share Posted March 14, 2019 There's not a massive need for them to move around. They move up the table, debark 3", move then charge if necessary. Assault Terminators will move an average of 15" across the board in 1 turn! That's 25" from the Land Raider movement the turn before! The beauty of it is you debark first so the tank can pull away if you want. Land Raiders are just as competetive as Repulsors since the "weakness" is negligible whilst having better survivability for less guns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5276270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joukernaut Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 I really want to try a redeemer with a couple assault centurions in it. (The redeemer needs some more paint on it though ) The redeemer will be able to fall back and toast units in overwatch so at least it will get to something once it is in combat. 3-4 assault centurions with dual flamers, hurricane bolters and their wicked fists each should be able to clear any unit trying to tag the landraider. I'm debating what other unit I could throw forward that would need attention from antitank weaponry as well to give the raider a decent chance to survive (besides making it -1 to hit and T9 with Tiggy). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352765-land-raiders/#findComment-5276274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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