Innovation: A fluff question

[Honda]

Question: Is there a faction of the AM that doesn't spurn innovation? I vaguely recall some mention of that in the "Lords of War" trilogy, but is that correct?

 

It's Ok if they aren't part of the mainstream orthodoxy of the AM, in fact it would be preferred.

 

If yes, what are they called?

 

Thanx in advance!

 

Cheers,

[Ciler]

I'm thinking Cawl certainly does not seem to have problems with being creative, maybe look in that direction ?

[KhorneHunter57x]

The Forge World of Ryza welcomes innovation, which is reflected in their Relic and Warlord Trait.

[Heliomanes]

It's a bit more complicated than a faction that dislikes innovation versus a faction that likes it, imo. It's more like thousands of diverse factions that are constantly judging each other as being either too radical or too conservative. It's a bit like road rage. Anyone driving faster than you is a maniac, anyone driving slower is an idiot.

[Charlo]

HERETEKS.

 

Nah anything Cawl related. And even then it's all about context.

[Honda]

Ok, I think there's the flexibility in the fluff that I'm looking for and also Forge World Ryza is a great tip, so how about a little context then?

 

1. My Elysian army is based on the remnants of the 23rd Drop Regiment, who lost nearly their entire  ground contingent in the ill-fated drop  on Hydro Plant 23-30.

 

2. Because the 23rd failed in their mission (not their fault), they have been censured and now have become indentured to an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor.

 

3. Part of their ongoing efforts is to develop effective tactics for dealing with the Tau as they have begun to emerge as the new dark horse threat because of their continuing improvements in the area of technology.

 

4. Part of the story development is to "extend" some of the Elysian's existing capabilities, e.g. allowing Valkyries to drop out of space craft in low orbit, more fuel efficiency, improved electronic warfare capabilities, etc.

 

5. In order to accomplish Item #4, it would seem that elements from the AM who are interested in this effort would need to exist and through whatever means, be encouraged to participate.

 

But first, they (innovative AdMech) would need to be possible and that sounds like not so great of a stretch.

 

So does that sound reasonable? Again, this is more fluff to justify certain technological improvements.

 

Cheers,

[Prot]

Internally almost all Forgeworlds have creativity, innovation and/or evolution inherent within them.

 

Nearly every book AM book I’ve read has a ‘controversial’ persuit of technology that is always met with a mix of purists vs the need to expand knowledge.

 

And yea Cawl is clearly one of these. His Primaris work alone is looked at as a gateway to the future as well as Heresy by altering the Omnissiah’s design.

 

It’s everywhere in their background.

[Magos Takatus]

Here's some mild spoilers for Warhammer 40k: Mechanicus.

 

In the Mechanicus pc game there is Scaevola who is fixated on using the Knowledge plundered from the tomb complexes they explore to augment the Mechanicus forces present and it's possible to follow her whims. She is considered a Xenarite according to the game's achievements, which does mark her as a radical tech priest. The tech priest Videx is fiercely opposed to her and questions her loyalty.

 

The fact that this debate is even possible shows that there is a surprising amount of leeway in the Adeptus Mechanicus.

[Xisor]

It's more like thousands of diverse factions that are constantly judging each other as being either too radical or too conservative. It's a bit like road rage. Anyone driving faster than you is a maniac, anyone driving slower is an idiot.

I think that's a perfect analogy.

 

It appeals to the inherently very human dogmatism too.

 

The articles of faith might be machinic and logical, but the practical motives underpinning the values? Still shockingly human.

[MajorNese]

It's a bit like road rage. Anyone driving faster than you is a maniac, anyone driving slower is an idiot.

Best analogy I've heard so far. Very close to the Inquisition - purists are too idealistic and not pragmatical enough. Heretics became too pragmatical, and lost sight of the ideals.

 

In the Adeptus Mechanicus, improvement and gain of knowledge are highly desirable, leading to a very greedy behavior. The purest way would be to literally rediscover old technology, but many try to improve the current technology (which is mostly based on older, better technology) or do their own research, and call it "rediscover".

 

And then there's the Xenarites - a faction active on most forge worlds, but most notably on Stygies. Those instead seek knowledge in other species' technologies. Considering that the fundamental laws of reality are the same for everyone, pure knowledge can't be classified as human or xenos anyway, blurring the lines between "rediscovering" technology by comparable xenos tech and committing heresy.

 

As usual with religious dogma, there are lots of ways to interpret these borders, and in the end the results are often of more importance than purity. Most dogma and restictions are based on events lost to time, making it even more debatable if or how these restrictions should be applied. The only relatively clear border is on AI - the Men of Iron almost wiped out humanity, that left quite a mark, even if the details are fuzzy.

 

Regarding dogma and innovation, the Mechanicus game was really accurate, and presented fitting choices.

"There's an agressive necron virus-transmission, what do we do?"

Regular priest: "Maybe block it, to be safe"

Scaevola (Xenarite): "Yeah, just download everything, that will be interesting (if anyone survives)"

Videx (religious guy): "Blast prayers over every channel!!!"

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 Considering that the fundamental laws of reality are the same for everyone, pure knowledge can't be classified as human or xenos anyway, blurring the lines between "rediscovering" technology by comparable xenos tech and committing heresy.

 

Ctan say no to that.

[Quantum]

Like others have said, innovation happens continuously within the Mechanicus. However, it is done rather secretive by individual techpriests and secretive cabals/sub-cults (which the Mechanicus is rife with). This means that many technologocal innovations will never see the light of day for the rest of the Mechanicus, never mind the Imperium.

 

This is largely due because in the mechanicus science, technology, theology, doctrine, power and politics are largely the same. This means that if a tech-priest makes a brilliant innovation, and makes it public, he will upset a lot of his colleagues. They will hate his slightly different view on scripture, distrust his sudden rise in political standing, and fear the power he will gain thanks to his invention. Better to condemn him as a heretek and let it be business as usual. Within the Mechanicus, you do not rock the technological-theological-political boat. Better to keep your secrets to yourself, and use them sparingly. Remember how the inventor of the ironstrider engine, a brilliant perpetual-motion machine, was ostracised by his brethren? Only a senoir techpriest, with a centuries of experience, many political allies, well-versed in scripture, politically astute, and probably with a decent amount of firepower can make innovations openly without facing lethal backlash to his work. 

[Quantum]

As for your question if a techpriest would be willing to upgrade a valkyrie; there certainly are situations where that would be possible, but it depends on many factors:

 

1. How holy is the Valkyrie? For the Mechanicus every piece of equipment is a vessel of knowledge and embodiment of the Deus Mechanicus, as such they do not simply 'tinker' with any hardware without good reason. And if a specific Valkyrie is of particularly good design and quality (like custom made on a forge world by highly skilled magi instead of a regular hive world on a conveyor belt by indentured workers) or advanced age (warmachines in the Imperium can last for centuries, even millenia, and older technology and more ancient machine spirits are much more respected in the Imperium), then they would be even more reluctant to touch such a holy design.

 

2. What is the technological AND theological skill of the tech-priest? Many lowly enginseers may be just good enough to repair damage to said valkyrie, but are unable to make any design changes to the vessel. Only a tech-priest of sufficient seniority would have the skill to make changes to a proven design without making it unstable. More importantly, only a tech-priest with sufficient seniority would have enough knowledge of scripture to justify and rationalise making changes to a vessel of the Deus Mechanicus at all. 

 

3. What are the effects of the changes on the Valkyrie? Would the improved capabilities of the vessel detract from its durability? Many tech-priest couldn't care less about Elyrian troopers having low orbit drop capabilities if it would mean a holy valkyrie is worn out in in five millenia instead of six.

 

4. What does the Valkyrie itself want? Every piece of tech has a machine spirit (at least as far as the Mechanicus is concerned), and it is probably essential to commune with it to discover if it is even willing or could be convinced to accept the changes (i.e. if its software can be updated). Better to sing some hymns and burn incense as well, in supplication.

 

But if you factor in these parameters, that make no sense to both us or regular guardsmen, then there certainly are situations were a tech-priest is willing to make the upgrades. Just remember that practicality is for a tech-priest not the determining factor (nor are matters of life and death).  

 

By the way, couldn't the Valkyrie already operate in low orbit? It is a Navy vessel after all.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I think it's important to distinguish between scientific/mathematical advancement, and technological development. The number one way of having innovation accepted by the Mechanicus is by showing that it wasn't innovation at all, but rather an extrapolation of existing technology, and knowledge. When it comes to developing new scientific theories/mathematical principles, etc, then they can fall back on the doctrine of "The Omnissiah knows all, comprehends all", that this knowledge cannot be heretical as they are simply discovering things that are already part of the Omnissiah's holy knowledge.
When it's technological innovation, that's when if you're influential you can fall back on "well it can be comprehended, and thus is part of the Omnissiah's plan", but is usually gotten around by proving that it's either a development off an existing STC technology ("well, this can't be heretek, all I'm doing is using the improved Gretarian Formulae to increase fuel efficiency in the Rhino engine"), or having evidence that the improvement was always intended, they just haven't found the specific blueprints yet ("of course the Predator Annihilator isn't heretek, I'm merely taking an STC-pattern tank-mounted lascannon from one vehicle and mounting it on the Predator chassis. The Omnissiah-granted STC templates of the Rhino chassis shows that the Omnissiah intended for the Rhino chassis to be modular and accepting of different configurations, therefore the Omnissiah intended for this configuration to be developed").

[Honda]

 Within the Mechanicus, you do not rock the technological-theological-political boat. Better to keep your secrets to yourself, and use them sparingly. Remember how the inventor of the ironstrider engine, a brilliant perpetual-motion machine, was ostracised by his brethren? Only a senoir techpriest, with a centuries of experience, many political allies, well-versed in scripture, politically astute, and probably with a decent amount of firepower can make innovations openly without facing lethal backlash to his work.

 

 

The highlighted bit is what my general understanding of how the AdMech views "change" (aka innovation). So it would seem that  someone  who operates out of the mainstream, possibly with Inquisitorial enticement could fit the story point I'd need to develop as justification for some of what I am considering.

 

As for your question if a techpriest would be willing to upgrade a valkyrie; there certainly are situations where that would be possible, but it depends on many factors:

 

1. How holy is the Valkyrie? For the Mechanicus every piece of equipment is a vessel of knowledge and embodiment of the Deus Mechanicus, as such they do not simply 'tinker' with any hardware without good reason. And if a specific Valkyrie is of particularly good design and quality (like custom made on a forge world by highly skilled magi instead of a regular hive world on a conveyor belt by indentured workers) or advanced age (warmachines in the Imperium can last for centuries, even millenia, and older technology and more ancient machine spirits are much more respected in the Imperium), then they would be even more reluctant to touch such a holy design.

 

 

The above would seem to infer that changes are for individual units vs. what I am thinking of, which would be improvements to an entire production line. Good point and something I need to think about.

 

2. What is the technological AND theological skill of the tech-priest? Many lowly enginseers may be just good enough to repair damage to said valkyrie, but are unable to make any design changes to the vessel. Only a tech-priest of sufficient seniority would have the skill to make changes to a proven design without making it unstable. More importantly, only a tech-priest with sufficient seniority would have enough knowledge of scripture to justify and rationalise making changes to a vessel of the Deus Mechanicus at all. 

 

3. What are the effects of the changes on the Valkyrie? Would the improved capabilities of the vessel detract from its durability? Many tech-priest couldn't care less about Elyrian troopers having low orbit drop capabilities if it would mean a holy valkyrie is worn out in in five millenia instead of six.

 

4. What does the Valkyrie itself want? Every piece of tech has a machine spirit (at least as far as the Mechanicus is concerned), and it is probably essential to commune with it to discover if it is even willing or could be convinced to accept the changes (i.e. if its software can be updated). Better to sing some hymns and burn incense as well, in supplication.

 

 

 

Very good points that I need to think about.

 

But if you factor in these parameters, that make no sense to both us or regular guardsmen, then there certainly are situations were a tech-priest is willing to make the upgrades. Just remember that practicality is for a tech-priest not the determining factor (nor are matters of life and death).  

 

 

Agree and something I will need to take into consideration.

 

By the way, couldn't the Valkyrie already operate in low orbit? It is a Navy vessel after all.

 

 

Correct, it is a Naval vessel, though the Valkyries operated by the Elysians are not. They are wholly owned by Elysia.

 

Whether or not they are capable of non-atmospheric flight I don't know. The Valk looks like an "air-breather" so I made an assumption. I guess I'll do some more research.

 

Cheers for all the feedback and thank you for giving me so much to think about.

[Battybattybats]

Of course even with a Primarch on his side Cawl still faces ramifications for his innovation. In Imperator Wrath Of The Omnissiah there’s a brief mention of Metallica trying to push Heresy charges on him and in Dark Imperium Roboute is adamantly refusing Cawl’s Regular requests to be made Fabricator General suggesting that he’s only barely getting away with his innovation and the risk of a major schism exists (particularly if he did become Fabricator General).

 

So innovation is fraught with risk and controversy. I’m trying to recall the details but iirc the background for one of the predator variants was that it was a battlefield innovation but took centuries before getting approval. The ironstrider’s inventor might have been ostracised but his invention is now part of the sacred canon of Skitarii forces. Whoever decided to put them on treadmills to power things inside Mechanicus ships was also innovating but our codex said this was also done.

 

Thus an innovator may feel sure that given time their radical experiments will be given formal blessing even if it will be long after they themselves are dead... they just have to survive the slings and arrows (and plasma blasts) of those narrow-minded fools holding back the progress only their genius can provide.... I’m sure the rogue Magos from the Imperial Knight Companion who managed to control a Tyranid Swarm with them fighting alongside their Skitarii was saying something along those very lines till the Knight and Skitarii opposed to him brought that particular heresy to its inevitable conclusion.

 

I think that narratively any innovation will result in conflict, where even a powerful tyrant able to get their way of a Forgeworld more open to it will face some covert resistance behind their back. But that just adds to positive drama.

[Nova_Dew]

Of course even with a Primarch on his side Cawl still faces ramifications for his innovation. In Imperator Wrath Of The Omnissiah there’s a brief mention of Metallica trying to push Heresy charges on him and in Dark Imperium Roboute is adamantly refusing Cawl’s Regular requests to be made Fabricator General suggesting that he’s only barely getting away with his innovation and the risk of a major schism exists (particularly if he did become Fabricator General).

 

So innovation is fraught with risk and controversy. I’m trying to recall the details but iirc the background for one of the predator variants was that it was a battlefield innovation but took centuries before getting approval. The ironstrider’s inventor might have been ostracised but his invention is now part of the sacred canon of Skitarii forces. Whoever decided to put them on treadmills to power things inside Mechanicus ships was also innovating but our codex said this was also done.

 

Thus an innovator may feel sure that given time their radical experiments will be given formal blessing even if it will be long after they themselves are dead... they just have to survive the slings and arrows (and plasma blasts) of those narrow-minded fools holding back the progress only their genius can provide.... I’m sure the rogue Magos from the Imperial Knight Companion who managed to control a Tyranid Swarm with them fighting alongside their Skitarii was saying something along those very lines till the Knight and Skitarii opposed to him brought that particular heresy to its inevitable conclusion.

 

I think that narratively any innovation will result in conflict, where even a powerful tyrant able to get their way of a Forgeworld more open to it will face some covert resistance behind their back. But that just adds to positive drama.

 

The Pred variant was the Annihilator, or at least the original fluff for it, with there now being a Demios Annihilator, it's now not so true. Originally it was a SW Iron Priest who made them by taking the lascannons from the long fang squad's and mounting them on a standard pred chassis

[Karhedron]

Innovation is frowned upon in the AdMech but not totally outlawed. The short story Deus Ex Mechanicus (which first introduced the Deceiver) includes a character called Lakias Danzager of the AdMech who is trained in extrapolation, intuition and innovation.

 

Whilst it is clear that many of the more conservative Tech Priests in the story find him extremely distasteful, he is still an official member of the AdMech and his skillset was formally sanctioned and developed. The Admech as a whole is deeply conservative but it is too large to be homogenous and pockets of sanctioned (and carefully controlled) progressives do seem to exist.

[Stray]

If you'll allow a corrupting delightful influence to whisper in your ear...

 

One 'branch' of the Mechanicus that certainly doesn't shun innovation, is the Dark Mechanicus.

 

If you're looking to create an army concept, use the same Ad Mech codex, but go wild (or conservative, you be you) on the conversions. They may be the most fun and creative element in 40K to model, and lore being so thin on the ground, you have quite a free hand to develop something.

 

I love Skitarii personally, but am not so keen on the Carrion 'god', so have had in mind for a while to do something similar with a Skitarii heavy Dark Mech concept.

 

Just a thought.

[Beren]

In my view, the issue isn't so much that the Mechanicus doesn't innovate as it is that the innovation doesn't spread. Even the ones that do innovate won't necessarilly share their discoveries or trust any other innovations than their own, and for good reasons. Historically, a large reason for scientific progression is that scientists can collaborate, share and build of one another's achievements, something which isn't true in 40k. For example, a minor modification to a Servitor type to make it a combat variant took 50 years to be approved, 'a relatively short approval period by Mechanicus standards' in FFG's The Lathe Worlds supplement for Dark Heresy.

[Malios]

Its less a matter of innovation and more a matter of refining what they have and rediscovering what was lost.

 

Cawl gets alot of flak for "doing what the Emperor and the Mechanicum couldn't" by those who aren't fans of the new edition's setting. This is not necessarily true and rather a harsh label. Cawl hasn't truly invented anything new: he's just refined what was already there to make it more efficient.

 

Thats what I find great about the Mechanicus faction: they are always scrounging for and recording knowledge, but they lock it away and fear it as if its heresy. Because of their blind faith in what they have, innovation as we know it is completely foreign to them.

 

Gauss weaponry more deadly then lasguns? Xenos heresy. Too dangerous to understand beyond what it does to Skitarii.

[jeremy1391]

Stymies VIII are known for going outside the normal “rules” of innovation.

[MegaVolt87]

My head cannon is its ok for the ad mech big wigs like Cawl to innovate without much issue, though drama happens when its the lower lvl adepts. Almost like the big wigs might lose their position to a nobody ranked adept showing them up, so obviously tech heresy in that case. Clearly no coincidence when you get labeled for tech heresy via innovation and invention. Same for those not in the ad mech who are good with tech. 

[Ciler]

My head cannon is its ok for the ad mech big wigs like Cawl to innovate without much issue, though drama happens when its the lower lvl adepts. Almost like the big wigs might lose their position to a nobody ranked adept showing them up, so obviously tech heresy in that case. Clearly no coincidence when you get labeled for tech heresy via innovation and invention. Same for those not in the ad mech who are good with tech. 

And yet ironically as far as the books go, it's mostly lower level adepts that actually innovate (or attempt to). But when has 40k been fair.