7pt guardsmen and 50+pt HQs

[Beams]

Officers aren't a problem -- they die super easy and can only buff 2 squads. Sure, that's enough for an imperium army, but I've seen pure guard armies struggle once you take one or two out.

 

So, uh, snipers? Or fast moving flying units that can leap behind enemy lines.

[domsto]

That's true.

Guard Characters don't have the best statline and get killed pretty easy.

I once played against a Guy who played 8 snipers

After turn 3 i had no Charakters left and that crippels Mono Guard armys.

[MrZakalwe]

Guard characters are pretty easy to hide from LoS though - unless you are playing pure infantry just hide them behind a vehicle/mansized bit of terrain.

[Beams]

Guard characters are pretty easy to hide from LoS though - unless you are playing pure infantry just hide them behind a vehicle/mansized bit of terrain.

Its usually easy to get height with snipers, which makes cover harder, or it's relatively easy to dart behind and then shoot/charge with flying units. Seraphim, for example, are 12" move, 15" with AoF, and have 2 bolt pistols each, with 4 hand Flamers in the squad, are WS 3+ and can (should) be Str 4 A2.

 

Assault Marines are similar, though they may have real Flamers, plasma or melta guns.

 

Sure it's possible that the officers are safe, but it's not as easy as people make it out to be. I've had Cannonesses sniped to death, and they are way tougher.

[Vykes]

Let me preface my reply by basically saying this: I'm not screaming that guard are unfair and need to be 'nerfed', nor am I saying 8E is broken and needs to be changed. I'm saying Guard are actually handled very well while most other armies were handled less delicately. The Guard have a good internal balance, they have great synergy, they work together as a mono-dex surprisingly well, and even the much maligned Loyal 32 isn't really a problem indicative of them being 'too good'. 7 pt guardsmen and 50 point lieutenant demands are a sign that others are frustrated that their armies were more maligned by having weaker balancing mechanisms and options that make the synergistic Guard look overly powerful. A lot of 8^th edition rules just generally helped give Guard an added edge (often because they have so many unit and weapon options) while others had to teeter in a sort of balancing effect that didn't translate nearly as well.

 

As a bit of an Addendum: a lot of the overt balance things with Guard I think were actually hammered out early on, Commissar and Conscript effects along with the general relic CP-Refund options being pretty big ones.  I don't think they were kneejerk any more than my poor Storm Eagles/Xiphons/Raptors were relentlessly bludgeoned to death along with the Imperial flying brickbird.

 

 

Blah blah blah

That's not exactly a functioning comparison. A Guardsmen squad is fully equipped and ready to be used on its own. The equivalent to orders would be similar character effects, the easiest comparison is auras. On a side note, I fully agree with your earlier point about the weakness of marines. Serious work needed there.

I talk a lot

I'm a bit unclear on the "so many benefits point". One of the main differences between 7th and 8th in my view has been that for Guard players nothing much has changed. We were able to continue playing pretty much as we have before, unlike a lot of other armies that had to change drastically. At the same time we've been hit with some of the most drastic and knee-jerk nerfs in this edition, aka Commissars and Conscripts. 2 weeks after the Codex came out no less.

Stiiiiill talkin'.

... That leads me to belief that Guardsmen aren't too cheap as such, but rather that they're too cheap AND too useful for other Imperium armies. There's no real cost benefit analysis that needs to be done because there's no extra cost. And that's not something that points increases will be able to really fix. ....

It is a fair comparison if we're talking about raw stat-lines as being the basis for their indicated points worth... which is my round about way of saying it is an unfair statement to suggest that a guardsmen is only a sum of its stat line. Ergo, its relative points cost shouldn't be boiled down to reflecting just its stat-line, either. It's true, a guardsmen is only mechanically worth probably ~4.5 pts, but considering the role, synergy, and balance that other elements of the army provides, its investment at ~4.5 points doesn't reflect its relative value in a composite force. Because army construction doesn't happen in a vacuum -- and other armies often suffer from a hefty opportunity cost and limited niche synergies – the Guardsmen benefit more in conjunction with the rest of their force and Guard force multipliers. Thus, they are worth more than is currently suggested because they have high efficiency options.

 

You're right, not a lot charged for guard, but typically what did change also favoured guard while it became a problem for the power-armoured armies: notably the way AP and moral worked (there are counterpoints, being the split-fire change that may favour others but Guard aren't hurt there, either). But they also benefited from a few smaller effects, such as their bevy of vehicles being able to overwatch as well. But we're talking about guardsmen.

 

 

 

Man, do I really blather on this much?  yeash, I guess I do.

 

There is a flaw in the Land Raider example - if you kill the Officer the Guardsmen cannot have Orders, you cannot knock the guns off a tank any more. Also, people have indeed looked at the base cost of vehicles without weaponry as part of highlighting the issues with the Knight Castellan, particularly in reference to the Land Raider chassis and the stat disparity therein.

 

Furthermore, none of the comparisons with other units (often well-regarded shooting units such as Fire Warriors or Dark Eldar Warriors) did not include any bonuses from Character auras from their own Codex (or, in the Dark Eldar case, bonuses from Ynnari/Farseer powers souped in). Looking at the base performance of the unit is a requirement before one can move on to other balancing issues.

 

CP generation is the absolute major issue, and I would argue the crux of the ubiquity of the Loyal 32, but the Mods asked us to leave that out so I didn't mention it.

 

The fact that Infantry Squads do have easy access to Order bonuses is why I would argue the Officers need more of a rework/cost raise than the Infantry Squad. Perhaps a matched play rule saying you cannot have more HQ Officers than Elite ones for a start. Perhaps rework some of the more problematic Orders (FRF is often used for the calculations but it is MMM that people really object to for the speed it makes an Objective Secured unit go). I even pointed to significantly raising the cost of the Officer models so long as something was done about the squishyness (personally I like the Command Squad getting the Bodyguard rule thanks to the limitations on number of CS units in Matched Play and that the CS is not taken in the Loyal 32 thus making the package significantly more expensive if you want your Officers to live more than a turn or two).

 

Ah, but with the wound system, the tank also now gets progressively worse while the officer is either dead, or not. There is no reduction in effect. Not that I disagree with your premise. I'm more less just using it as an example of the mechanical statline of the unit can't be the only consideration when we have to hash out the points in the back of the book.  As for the knight, yeah, it's still a good intrinsic melee characters while Land Raiders and a lot of other vehicles are just -sighs- really-really sad. 

 

Part of the problems get changed by the FAQ's frequent changing of the relative CP cost of strategems, or CA points alterations, but Orders in particular are really sticky. It's hard to change, and unlike a lot of very niche strategems, there are a lot of really useful Orders which can see use every turn from backfield to frontline. The other problem is that Guard generate CP with incredible efficiency even outside of the Loyal 32. Yes, the changes and patches required of the CP system is mod-decreed outside the scope of the conversation, but Guard CP generation effectiveness isn't outside of the context of 'Guardsmen are really good'.

 

And Gothical, you absolutely nailed it when it comes to FRF being the basis of a lot of calculations, but even out of a direct firefight, guardsmen perform well with MMM and even something really simple like FFFE operate by increasing the threat envelope of squads. Orders typically can always be used, there is no opportunity cost to use them, and they're generated by a very economical option while other commander auras are usually more than double a Guard character's cost. It's kind of about efficiency: Guard commanders can act as a battery option to make their forces better, but a lot of other armies get stuck with a package deal that says 'your limited aura character still only affects a 6” radius and does one thing, is a good combat beatstick, and is going to cost about a hundred points. By the way, your army only gets -1 to enemy saves while they're in an Imperial building on a Thursday. Enjoy'.

 

Orders remain one of the big problems because its hard to change, and by front loading officers, we do open up the problem that some of the 'area' strategems or sniper units can knock them off given that guard characters are pretty squishy, as you said. Admittedly, Sniper weapons are surprisingly and frustratingly rare in quite a few armies, and some like Chaos typically only have them in the form of relic pistols which I'm fairly certain is a joke. With the changes to the way jump assaults worked, and the usual weakness of a lot of Assault marine equivalencies, there's not a lot of ways to really get at Guard characters (and lets not forget that we're talking about exchanging 80+ point units for 15-30 point characters). You typically have to chew through Guardmen screens, or hope that your pricey bombardment stratagem gets lucky and pastes them on a roughly 1:3 chance.

 

So yeah, Guard do their job really well while most others don't. I do think there should probably be some points alterations in my mind given that other armies aren't really in a good place right now.  Kinda needs to be codex rehab in order to bring a few of them into line. 

[Beams]

Most codexes are fine -- it's Codex Marines Tactical/Assault Marines, and some of the rebrands of that, that have the problems

 

But as far as other codexes go, Aelder, Dark Eldar, Deathwatch, Deathguard, even Sisters of battle with the nerfed beta codex, all of them work pretty well.

 

But comparing anything from the above to tactical marines doesn't work, since tactical Marines aren't great, and GW knows that, and the most common fan fix is +1 attack and +1 wound -1 AP, hence Primaris Marines.

 

Compare Guardsmen to nontacticals troop choice (Deathwatch veterans, SoB, Kabalites, Wyches, Boyz, Necrons, Battle Sisters, etc) and 4 pts starts looking pretty fair.

[Vykes]

Add generic chaos to the list and I think you're about right (As much as I wanna complain about Primaris not being a chaos thing, or having nearly as many transport/weapon options and the plethora of other limitations).  Admittedly I get nothing but complaints about kabalites for being not as good as guard from our local players, but we tend to hedge them in with other stuff.  

 

I'd say it's grimmer than that and the listed options are good and the rest are meh, but that's me (Add in genestealers to the good boy list). I'm still incline to say guard simply work better as a whole as far as mono-dex goes. Guardsmen don't hurt that opinion. 

[Beams]

Add generic chaos to the list and I think you're about right (As much as I wanna complain about Primaris not being a chaos thing, or having nearly as many transport/weapon options and the plethora of other limitations). Admittedly I get nothing but complaints about kabalites for being not as good as guard from our local players, but we tend to hedge them in with other stuff.

 

I'd say it's grimmer than that and the listed options are good and the rest are meh, but that's me (Add in genestealers to the good boy list). I'm still incline to say guard simply work better as a whole as far as mono-dex goes. Guardsmen don't hurt that opinion.

Yeah I mean, at that point the list is pretty big for good troops. I think the internal balance is a thing, and a big problem with other codices is the inclusion of auras -- there's no way to cost anything correctly when it can get reroll all hits and wounds, reroll 1s and 1s or be naked, and you never know how much the buffer is buffing.

 

Guard is easy since they only get limited buffs, and there is a system for determining how many are giving out and to who.

[Vykes]

Aye, but cheap guard characters also increases relative aura coverage which is a bit of a thing (it's a hard bullet to bite keeping a 70+ point naked HQ back with a squad of over-priced heavy support troopers, not leveraging their innate combat ability or limited ranged psychic ability, just to get a reroll 1's.  It's a lot easier with a 30 point alternative).

 

Guard have efficiency in spades in addition to great utility. What their characters do, they do well, and they have a swiss-army knife worth of options for dealing with threats.  

[duz_]

I think its already been said before

 

Its more SMs and PA in general being terrible (as well as a couple of others)

 

I suspect in match ups vs eldar (of all forms), orks an IKs guard isnt a dead set winner.

 

Over the break I did want to run all the basic troops through a stats package to see if there was any real relationship between points and profile. Unfortunately I didnt get a chance to but its on my to do list.

[WarriorFish]

Let's not forget this is the barracks please - the state of SM armies is not for discussion here.

[Closet Skeleton]

Orders are way better than Auras just for their flexibility and would be even if the really broken order (move move move) was nerfed, which I would be happy with despite most of my tournament game wins being down to that order.

 

50 point Company Commanders and 20 point Platoon commanders would still be worth taking. 7 Point guardsmen would be a joke, Guard are one of my worst match ups in tournament games and its not the infantry that are the problem (I also do pretty badly when I run my own mostly infantry guard list). Its the tanks and artillery that always beats me (in turn those lists tend to be kept out of the top bracket after being flattened by Alaitoc Eldar).

 

Catachan infantry are over-powered when buffed up to 3 attacks but that's not something you can fix with points changes.

 

For all the talk of how powerful guard infantry are you don't see many infantry guard armies win tournaments.

[domsto]

Orders are not better as Auras in my Opinionen
They are an Activ buff not an Passiv buff.
You must know before hand how many order you will need. So you have to include as many Commanders.
And if the Commanders dies you lose that many Orders with no possible replacement.

With Auras one Guy can buff half the Army at once.
And if the Aura Guy dies you can run into the next Aura and all is fine.

The second thing is that Orders only work in your shooting phase.
So they don't help you in your charge phase or in the enemy's Turn.

Auras instead work all the Time.

[Wassa]

50 point Company Commanders and 20 point Platoon commanders would still be worth taking.

 

Catachan infantry are over-powered when buffed up to 3 attacks but that's not something you can fix with points changes.

 

 

I'd be pretty annoyed with 50 point Company Commanders. They're very easy to take out, either with sniper rifles, psychic powers, or character targeting strategems.

 

 

I've used the Catachan 3 attacks strategy before. It's great against hordes, but it's still extremely risky against marines with their 4+ hit, 5+ wound, doding their 3+ save.

If you don't kill enough then they turn round and eliminate you straight away.

[MrZakalwe]

Orders are not better as Auras in my Opinionen

They are an Activ buff not an Passiv buff.

You must know before hand how many order you will need. So you have to include as many Commanders.

And if the Commanders dies you lose that many Orders with no possible replacement.

 

With Auras one Guy can buff half the Army at once.

And if the Aura Guy dies you can run into the next Aura and all is fine.

 

The second thing is that Orders only work in your shooting phase.

So they don't help you in your charge phase or in the enemy's Turn.

 

Auras instead work all the Time.

On a more expensive platform auras are definitely better than orders but on a cheap platform like a company commander the effect can be split up and spread out which other sides can't really do without a massive investment of points.

 

Where the guard get an advantage is specialisation; a space marine captain is a decent buff character and a decent combat asset and you pay for both of those things- if you send him into combat odds are he's not making good use of his buffing ability (marines are a shooting side first and foremost) while if you keep him with your shooting troops he wont be using his considerable melee ability. Guard don't have this problem as you are almost entirely paying for the buffs with little combat ability glued on. Basically there's almost no tax. Currently the CC's datasheet doesn't really support a serious increase in points as the base stat line is just so poor.

[domsto]

On a more expensive platform auras are definitely better than orders but on a cheap platform like a company commander the effect can be split up and spread out which other sides can't really do without a massive investment of points.

 

Where the guard get an advantage is specialisation; a space marine captain is a decent buff character and a decent combat asset and you pay for both of those things- if you send him into combat odds are he's not making good use of his buffing ability (marines are a shooting side first and foremost) while if you keep him with your shooting troops he wont be using his considerable melee ability. Guard don't have this problem as you are almost entirely paying for the buffs with little combat ability glued on. Basically there's almost no tax. Currently the CC's datasheet doesn't really support a serious increase in points as the base stat line is just so poor.

I think Auras and Orders are almost equal. Both system have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

And as always i think the comparison with a Space Marine is a litlle bit off, because we all know that Marines are to expensiv for what they do.

[MrZakalwe]

I think Auras and Orders are almost equal. Both system have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

And as always i think the comparison with a Space Marine is a litlle bit off, because we all know that Marines are to expensiv for what they do.

I was just using the space marine example because most aura heroes have quite a bit of role tension where they want to be hanging back to use half of their stat line well while wanting to get stuck in to use the other half, they will rarely make efficient use of their kit. Guard don't have that problem. The same is true of most aura heroes. Orders are ideal for cheap barebones characters but would be quite weak on more expensive characters we have cheap characters so orders are functionally stronger on us than they would be on most others.

[Beams]

 

I think Auras and Orders are almost equal. Both system have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

And as always i think the comparison with a Space Marine is a litlle bit off, because we all know that Marines are to expensiv for what they do.

I was just using the space marine example because most aura heroes have quite a bit of role tension where they want to be hanging back to use half of their stat line well while wanting to get stuck in to use the other half, they will rarely make efficient use of their kit. Guard don't have that problem. The same is true of most aura heroes. Orders are ideal for cheap barebones characters but would be quite weak on more expensive characters we have cheap characters so orders are functionally stronger on us than they would be on most others.

It's 45 pts for a reroll ones to hit aura for sisters of battle Cannoness, or 77 pts for a marine captain who can spend 3cp to turn his reroll 1s to reroll all misses. Start of the game, its bot ubusally for my Cannonesses to cover my entire army.

 

For 15 pts more, I get a 3+ armor, a 4++, more attacks and wounds and an aura that generally effects myself, and 3 other squads, but also can affect tanks and other stuff.

 

A marine captain is the above, but way better in combat, harder to kill, and has access to psychic combat buffs and melee focused strategems.

 

Compare that to orders, which yes are more flexible, but come on a weak body and can on affect 2 squads of infantry? I'd say 30 pts is right.

[NatBrannigan]

I  like the idea of making Officers more expensive and / or restricting the number of Company Commanders that can be taken, and maybe reducing the effectiveness of "Move Move Move". It is a bit silly that just because they're told to, Guardsman suddenly out-sprint bikes, Hormagaunts and the like... Is no-one else in the 40k universe actually running?

 

That's the order that seems to upset most people and make the Loyal 32 great for grabbing objectives. If you want your Infantry to move fast, buy them a transport. FRFSRF is important for Guard armies (some of us do play only Guard you know!) so I'd rather that was left untouched. You never hear complaints about the other orders so lets give MMM a good nerf and make officers more expensive. Would those changes placate people if Infantry stayed at 4 points?

 

Also love the Command Squad look out sir suggestions. Much more fluffy than random groups of 4 Plasma Guns.

[domsto]

I only used MMM once in all my Games.

And i never heard people complain about it.

[domsto]

Also the Number of Company Commanders is limited because Rule of 3

Which is a really hard punch in the face for all Infantry heavy Guard Forces.

[Vykes]

 

 

-snip-

It's 45 pts for a reroll ones to hit aura for sisters of battle Cannoness, or 77 pts for a marine captain who can spend 3cp to turn his reroll 1s to reroll all misses. Start of the game, its bot ubusally for my Cannonesses to cover my entire army.

 

For 15 pts more, I get a 3+ armor, a 4++, more attacks and wounds and an aura that generally effects myself, and 3 other squads, but also can affect tanks and other stuff.

 

A marine captain is the above, but way better in combat, harder to kill, and has access to psychic combat buffs and melee focused strategems.

 

Compare that to orders, which yes are more flexible, but come on a weak body and can on affect 2 squads of infantry? I'd say 30 pts is right.

 

 

But that's generally the point: a company commander and what not are 30 points and do only what they need to do, they have good area coverage, and aren't that hard to hide because they're a comfy small profile.  They do exactly what they need to do for a very economical price point. 

 

But a marine captain is 2-3 times as expensive depending on equipment, to be really effective, they need to spend a whole whack of CP that marine's don't get easy access to, and in order for that all to be justified for his role, he needs to be in the front line squishing people in melee.  So you've spend 3 times the cost of your company commanders on a zone 1/3 the size for a character that should be a frontline fighter.  Meanwhile, your backfield units are suffering from aura withdrawl. 

 

Guard are efficient in what tasks they want to perform while other armies are a little schizophrenic in fulfilling roles, and they pay for it. 

 

Addendum: And yeah, this is the guard portion of the site no Power Armour talk allowed, but 7pt guardsmen and 50pt HQ's are coming from a place of frustration in other armies, not from Guard commanders.  It's critical to the context of the premise in the first place.  Because while the Guard infantry are effective, they aren't the killers in the list.  But they're cheap enough that they hold up a wide variety of enemy troopers to allow the specialists in to murder the generalists that other lists are forced to take.  There is no 'tax', tossing a platoon of guardsmen into a list (which is a nice fluffy choice, mind you) doesn't severely hinder the effectiveness of the tanks, bullgryns, characters, and any Non-Guard support options.  Rather, it protects them, and if they can fight as well as a unit twice their cost while keeping them away from the heavy guns, bully for them. 

[Beams]

 

 

 

 

-snip-

It's 45 pts for a reroll ones to hit aura for sisters of battle Cannoness, or 77 pts for a marine captain who can spend 3cp to turn his reroll 1s to reroll all misses. Start of the game, its bot ubusally for my Cannonesses to cover my entire army.

 

For 15 pts more, I get a 3+ armor, a 4++, more attacks and wounds and an aura that generally effects myself, and 3 other squads, but also can affect tanks and other stuff.

 

A marine captain is the above, but way better in combat, harder to kill, and has access to psychic combat buffs and melee focused strategems.

 

Compare that to orders, which yes are more flexible, but come on a weak body and can on affect 2 squads of infantry? I'd say 30 pts is right.

But that's generally the point: a company commander and what not are 30 points and do only what they need to do, they have good area coverage, and aren't that hard to hide because they're a comfy small profile. They do exactly what they need to do for a very economical price point.

 

But a marine captain is 2-3 times as expensive depending on equipment, to be really effective, they need to spend a whole whack of CP that marine's don't get easy access to, and in order for that all to be justified for his role, he needs to be in the front line squishing people in melee. So you've spend 3 times the cost of your company commanders on a zone 1/3 the size for a character that should be a frontline fighter. Meanwhile, your backfield units are suffering from aura withdrawl.

 

Guard are efficient in what tasks they want to perform while other armies are a little schizophrenic in fulfilling roles, and they pay for it.

 

Addendum: And yeah, this is the guard portion of the site no Power Armour talk allowed, but 7pt guardsmen and 50pt HQ's are coming from a place of frustration in other armies, not from Guard commanders. It's critical to the context of the premise in the first place. Because while the Guard infantry are effective, they aren't the killers in the list. But they're cheap enough that they hold up a wide variety of enemy troopers to allow the specialists in to murder the generalists that other lists are forced to take. There is no 'tax', tossing a platoon of guardsmen into a list (which is a nice fluffy choice, mind you) doesn't severely hinder the effectiveness of the tanks, bullgryns, characters, and any Non-Guard support options. Rather, it protects them, and if they can fight as well as a unit twice their cost while keeping them away from the heavy guns, bully for them.

That's kind of my point, guard hqs do one thing and pay only for that one thing, and that one thing affects potentially a lot less than the SoB/Ork/SM/etc equivalent.

 

When people ask for guard commanders to cost 5 pts more than a Cannoness (or 10 less than a SM LT), who's objectively a stronger unit, it seems weird to me, regardless of codex space marine's internal balance issues.

[Vykes]

Guard characters only need to do specific jobs: they affect exactly who they need to and don't pay more for aiding units that they wouldn't need to, anyway.  It's about points efficiency, and guard characters and units accomplish that with very little fat, so they get to spend their targeted amount of points on units which work well together. Why pay for the stats of a fighter then they aren't meant to be in combat?  Even if they're inferior fighters, the additional 'upgrade' cost is wasted points if they're in they're bunkered down with a squadron of basalisks, etc.  

 

Meanwhile, the Power Armour crew are objectively better fighters, but they're stuck doing two or more different roles that two-or-more guard characters could be doing.  Which means they don't get the same coverage.  The best equivalency that the Power Armoured group gets is the ever popular and truly useful Lieutenants (who as a Black Legion spiky boi, I don't have an ranged equivalent too regardless of cost).  

 

Why pay for three roles when you only need them do to one? 

[Beams]

Guard characters only need to do specific jobs: they affect exactly who they need to and don't pay more for aiding units that they wouldn't need to, anyway. It's about points efficiency, and guard characters and units accomplish that with very little fat, so they get to spend their targeted amount of points on units which work well together. Why pay for the stats of a fighter then they aren't meant to be in combat? Even if they're inferior fighters, the additional 'upgrade' cost is wasted points if they're in they're bunkered down with a squadron of basalisks, etc.

 

Meanwhile, the Power Armour crew are objectively better fighters, but they're stuck doing two or more different roles that two-or-more guard characters could be doing. Which means they don't get the same coverage. The best equivalency that the Power Armoured group gets is the ever popular and truly useful Lieutenants (who as a Black Legion spiky boi, I don't have an ranged equivalent too regardless of cost).

 

Why pay for three roles when you only need them do to one?

Well, since I play some armored nuns as well as guard, I can tell you that your paying for more roles because they tend to come up. Get charged and have a melee profile and aren't squishy because you have a 3+ save?

 

You survive the combat and take some enemies out, especially if you give your back field guy a power maul or hammer, an then he's a counter charge character, who helps vs brutual assaults that could otherwise break your line.

 

This is important for power armor, because they should be advancing up the field and onto objectives.

 

Guard, on the other hand, if they get charged on an objective tend to die or survive long enough to not kill a single power armored enemy in melee, unless their CC has a power fist. And even then he's killing 1-2 Marines, if he's lucky.

 

Saying a cc should be 50+ pts means that saying someone who's only time is support should pay more than someone who provides similar support but has much greater utility.

 

edit: the most directly comparable to CCs are Preachers, which are 35 pt human HQs that provide a +1 attack bonus within 6" or Cannonesses which are human hqs that are 45 pts and provide a reroll 1s 6" auraml. Space Marine captains are comparable to cannonesses but with better stats. Whether they are worth the price increase is debatable, but isn't relevant here, since it's been established that CSM isnt internally balanced correctly in many different threads.