Vykes Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Can we not get into a gamer-cred fight? Lets just suppose I might not be a beginner and move on from there. It comes down to a simple instance that guard pay for 1 role and need to fill 1 role, which they do. Power Armour armies tend to pay for 2+ roles and do 2, but can typically fulfill 1 at a time. So while objectively better on the stat front, and better in some situations, they're still having a tougher time fulfilling all of their roles to get the most out of the points spent. Guard units work well in synergy, they have good delaying tactics, and so many specialist units that can fulfill specific roles that it makes them into a swiss-army-knife army. Their Guardsmen and Commanders are pointed for the exact job they need to be doing which gives them a good efficiency that the Power Armoured half of the game can't keep up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Gents, if we can't keep civil and discuss like adults this discussion will end very shortly. This thread is already getting long in the tooth with no new points being raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sairence Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 But then you're arguing that point increases for officers are justified because they are more streamlined than more expensive characters who can do multiple things well. It becomes a penalty cost because they don't have any extra abilities they would have to pay for if they had them. Honestly, if that's what we're going for I have a suggestion: Combine Commanders again with their Command squads. Have the whole unit keep the character rule and equipment options, or some variation of it, like "counts as character if enemy unit is more than 6" away" or something. They become a bit more durable but can actually work as a whole number of support roles. Or even assault if you want to put your commander in danger with lots of special weapons. It would solve the issue with Command squads being too fragile at the same time. Then you could justify what you seem to be arguing for. But suggesting that Guard characters should be more expensive because they lack the multiple uses of more expensive comparable models is a bit schizophrenic.;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beams Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Never accused to of being a beginner or comparing "gamer cred". Just think it's crazy that something should pay more points for something because they aren't paying points for something they don't have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykes Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 -sighs and rubs forehead- Long and the short of it is that there are a number of individuals who want the Astra Militarum to pay the brand new patented Points Efficiency PremiumTM. Some argue for a preferred rate, some for another. Consult your local black-shirt for more details. Peace out, I'm done. -scrambles back- Wait wait wait, I'm glad we could have this PEP talk... heh, yeah I came back for a pun. Righto, later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven 19 Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 I play guard and would like to point out that orders are not automatic, we have to REMEMBER to use them before our Baneblades shoot. Also, when my guard actually play someone with tactics, they generally end up dead. After that, my SPACE MARINES come along and annihilate the enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Closet Skeleton Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 I've used the Catachan 3 attacks strategy before. It's great against hordes, but it's still extremely risky against marines with their 4+ hit, 5+ wound, doding their 3+ save. If you don't kill enough then they turn round and eliminate you straight away. Catachans wound on 4+, that's the whole point of Catachans. If marines beat your catachans (the odds are against them) then you just throw another bunch of catachans in to finish them off. I only used MMM once in all my Games. And i never heard people complain about it. I use mmm every game with my guard and wouldn't win a game without it (I'm terrible with guard), but I haven't heard anyone complain about it either. For example last tournament I went to in the 2nd game (of 3) my army had been thoroughly smashed and I was behind on maelstrom points. Then I won because I drew domination (a card most armies can't score when they're 80% destroyed) and could throw a shattered 2 man infantry squad 15" deep into enemy territory to grab one objective and then have my commander use the same order on himself to move onto another objective. Other armies can move 20" to steal an objective but they generally can't do that with an obsec 40 point throw-away unit. In non objective games mmm is less useful but thanks to orders you aren't losing any points on abilities that aren't suited to the mission. That's kind of my point, guard hqs do one thing and pay only for that one thing, and that one thing affects potentially a lot less than the SoB/Ork/SM/etc equivalent. I find it hard to square the logic of "officers only do one thing" when that thing is "choose from a long list of useful abilities". In my opinion the ability to give a single buff is what's "only having one thing". Its not like you can't make a company commander good in combat either. If there was a HQ with an aura version of every order it would make Guiliman's aura look sub par. The fact that guard can only do one of those at once is what keeps them balanced. Auras are great when you can castle but having to castle is actually a massive disadvantage for marine armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'm Heckus Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 “flat rate CP based on game size rather than detachments” would make this conversation moot. X# cp per so many points or power plus bonuses for command traits or certain characters. Everyone is even and suddenly no one cares how cheap Guard are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher956 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 bye bye most troop choices then... why would I take Eldar guardians if I can get the same amount of CP from a Vanguard formation as a battalion? With my Eldar the troops are a tax I want to take the FA, Elite & Heavy Support units... With my Sisters 2K list I already only have 3 troops... with this I'd just take another 3 dominon squads..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 =][= And we're off track again. Which would signal we're done here. =][= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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