DW Terminators -- Competitive?

[L30n1d4s]

Terminators are generally looked down upon this edition (with good reason, overall), and even with the recent points reduction from CA, a lot of people don't consider them as a real option compared to Veterans and Intercessors.

 

That said, consider this: a DW Terminator costs 6 points more base than a DW Intercessor... they both have 2W, S4 T4 and BS3+/WS3+, but for the additional 6 points, Terminators gain a 2+/5++ (compared to Intercessor 3+), immunity to Morale, and the built in ability to DS, instead of paying CPs like Intercessors have to (on the negative side, Terminators have a 5" move versus 6" for Intercessors).

 

Perhaps even more importantly, DW Terminators have access to Storm Bolters for their SIA (so double the rate of fire of Intercessors), power weapons of all kinds to make good use of their base 2A (only the Intercessor Sgt can get this), and the option to give a few models Storm Shields (i.e. the TH/SS loadout) for the all important 3++ (Intercessors have no equivalent option here).

 

While the PW/SB options make the bare bones DW Terminators cost just over 30 points a model, if used astutely they can be a very effective unit I think, even in big squads of 10 Marines (i.e. to maximize the effectiveness of Strategems and CP usage). For example, dropping a squad of 10 DW Terminators into cover gives them a 1+ save (or 4++ equivelant against AP-3 shooting like plasma, which is the bane of 2W models like Intercessors and Terminators). This means it would take 36 Heavy Bolter shots to kill a DW Terminator in cover, on average, as opposed to 18 Heavy Bolter shots to kill an Intercessor in cover. Similarly, it would take an average of 5-6 Overcharged Plasma shots to kill a DW Terminator with a Storm Shield, compared to an average of 2 Overcharged Plasma shots to kill an Intercessor.

 

Additionally, with a Watchmaster nearby for rerolls and DW stratagems, they can reliably wipe out an entire 30 Bo mob of Orks in a single shooting phase, or put 10-11 wounds on a T7 3+ save vehicle by themselves, things that a 10 man squad of Intercessors would have almost no hope of doing.

 

While you have to bbe cagey with them, due to higher points costs, after CA they are now cheap enough and sufficiently versatile to be taken in competitive DW armies I think.

[Krom4095]

Really good analysis. I really wish they'd give Termies T5 or 3 wounds. At least they'd better fit their fluff.

 

While I know you were obviously analyzing them from a competitiveness perspective, they clearly outclass Intercessors on one of the most important factors for many players - COOL factor.

 

I'll watch this thread for any additional input from other competitive players.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I see them as good when you add them to Veteran squads but not in stand-alone terminator squads. This is because of the synergy of the Veteran squad which has been discussed. I know some people really like them in pure squads but they are not versatile enough.

 

"Additionally, with a Watchmaster nearby for rerolls and DW stratagems, they can reliably wipe out an entire 30 Bo mob of Orks in a single shooting phase, or put 10-11 wounds on a T7 3+ save vehicle by themselves, things that a 10 man squad of Intercessors would have almost no hope of doing."

 

Veterans can do this just as well, even better imo .

[Finkmilkana]

Yeah, DW termies are now quite viable. But unless you really need to deepstrike more squads (or want to save CP), there is still no real reason to bring them. Veteran squads (often including a few termies) are just better at pretty much everything.

[Lemondish]

I think what you've highlighted is just how woefully underpowered Intercessors are. Not even as good as Terminators, pfft. And people were afraid Primaris would replace mini-marines...sounds like a joke now, doesn't it?

[durdle-durdle]

I’d like to put in my vote for veteran squads with terminators instead of the regular terminator entry. Not being forced to take a power fist on every model really cuts down the cost, and the sia makes them do actual damage at range. I think optimally though, a squad of veterans + 5 terminators is probably the best way to take them. The vets meatshield the high ap multi wound hits, and the 2 bars terminators tank small arms shots well. People generally frown on their heavy weapons, but i’m A big fan of cyclone launchers. The ability to shoot 6 Krak missles (from the 3 heavy weapon terminators you can fit in) and also wreck a chaff squad at the same time, then charge a 3rd squad is really strong.

[Mobius0288]

I will also throw my hat in for the termies in vet squads. If you feel the need to take 5 termies, definitely add them to a veteran and just make it a blob of storm bolter fire.

 

I think the CA 2018 really helped to "even the playing field" when it came to choosing units in Deathwatch. Instead a couple variations, we now see a wide array of options. Are they super competitive? I'm not entirely sure. I think we will still give everyone else a run for their money.

 

Taking 1 or 2 termies in a vet squad is super efficient compared to the other space marine armies. In fact, we can load ours up with (for example) a melta/fist and Cyclone Missile Launcher, and the points are still more efficient then either taking a 5-man termie unit on its own or borrowing from another army type (Vanguard Det or something)... because we get SIA, we can get 2 main weapons, and hide them behind vets with storm shield because they are cheaper then termie bodies.

 

Basically, termies are good for us. They can definitely have a place now that CA 2018 dropped. Always best in a Vet squad IMO, whether you have 1 or 5. Deep strike a vet unit with 4 termies (2 PF/Melta/CML, 2 power maul/SB) and a VV, you have a tanky AND shooty unit that can't be locked in melee.

[Delta.Skies]

https://youtu.be/4KfdXDNsVIU

- termies were included but as damage soakers -

[durdle-durdle]

- termies were included but as damage soakers -

I mean, that’s also a pretty fair way to use them. Bare in a vet squad, one or two can make a squad of guys carrying storm bolters or special weapons survive a lot longer.

[HorrOwl]

Terminators with stormbolters & power swords + veterans with stormbolters & stormshields = a great combo for a killteam. :)

[Delta.Skies]

Terminators with stormbolters & power swords + veterans with stormbolters & stormshields = a great combo for a killteam. :)

Yea it is, but the list itself was pretty spammy. Stormshields all around. With stormbolters... just seems boring. One unit maybe, but your whole army. Seems just like a cop out ya know.

[HorrOwl]

 

 

 One unit maybe, but your whole army

whole army?

I use 2 units of these. It is less than 500 points total :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They rock. Our Mission is to destroy the Xenos hordes... dont be dropping a gubbinz and tie your hand behind your back.

[HorrOwl]

Just don't forget: they have a huge problems with vehicles and titanics , esp T8, so I would not recommend to make a whole army of them

You still need all these Ven. Dreadnouths, smashcaptains and all like that. :)

[whiteridder]

I use them too. Still don't know what is the right equipment. Last time I used a squad of 5. 2 with assaultcannon and powerfist and melta, 3 with stormbolter and powerfist and melta. they destroyed a lot, and I really like this equipment.  They had a watchcaptain in temrinator armour with a combi melta and powerfist and meltagun with them

 

But if this is the best I dont know

[Vel'Cona]

I would not recommend to make a whole army of them

 

^This is probably the number one recommendation I can make.  Too often I see lists devolve into the best 3 units, which means that under CA2018 you lose 3/4 of the missions since you don't have broad unit role representation or the ability to adapt beyond "kill all the stuff" mentality.

[Delta.Skies]

Yea i dont see myself running a pure dw army. Sticking to the basics of hq. Simple kill teams with transports and a dreadnought. If i decide to run pure its because i added a leviathan with hellblasters and TL Razorbacks to compensate. Have two terminators rn that im thinking of getting rid of cause a stormshield can pretty much do the same thing, cause its not like they have any advantages other than a 2+ and 2 wounds. They still move slower, heavy weapons dont appeal to me, and they hinder you just a bit in transportation. Though i think they have a place. Just dont take them serious enough to apply them in the mix.

[HorrOwl]

 

 

Yea i dont see myself running a pure dw army

I wasn't talking about pure dw army - I play it actually :)

[zero88]

If you take a big squad like you suggested, taking some usually forgotten about teleport homers could really mess with your opponent. Drop in a squad of 10 and a Captain to gun something down and pose a HUGE threat, then after the opponent reacts teleport them out. The only downside would be that of course that you would have about 500 points not on the board on turn 1

[Qui-Gon]

Reviving this thread rather than post a new one. Could the OP please update the title to indicate new information?

Leaks from the February White Dwarf indicate an incoming Beta Rule for Astartes: Bolter Discipline.

In summary;
 

Any unit with a Rapid Fire bolt weapon doubles the number of shots if:

In half range
Stood still in preceding movement phase

Has the Terminator, Biker, Centurion, or Vehicle keyword

^^^THIS^^^ in my opinion now makes Terminators a competitive choice for us.

[Black Knight]

It is not double the shots, its the activation of the rapid fire rule. So for a Rapid Fire 1 you get 2 Shots at max range NOT 4, if you do not move, are a vehicle/terminator. A lot of people been getting this wrong in the other forum.

 

So terminators will get to shoot 4 shots at 24 but a veteran can still do the same if he stands still.

[Qui-Gon]

Veterans can do the same, but there are things to consider that makes the Terminator a tempting choice now:

Cyclones on the Terminator really augment the notion of a stand and shoot, where now he has the 2 missiles and 4 shots at 30" kraken rounds.
Also Terminators always get 4 shots now, period the end. A normal Veteran would need to be standing still to get 4 shots with a storm bolter. It makes their deep strike no longer do or die where they need to be right close to maximize their firepower, but now a tactical placement, where you can put them somewhere annoying to deal with and still kick out 30" AP -1 or 18" AP -2.

The argument that Storm bolter vets are cheaper and can just stand still is valid and all, but the Terminator has mobility that the storm bolter vet doesn't get, along with the natural 2+ meaning that they can move away from cover and still be a dangerous unit.

 

Now the following is unrelated to this thread, but relevant to the topic of Bolter Discipline: RIP stalker pattern boltguns, I will miss you :down:

[Black Knight]

I still think it is worth having one in a kill team but only as a bullet sponge. I do not want to put an expensive Cyclone on something that will be taking the 0ap shots. I can easily add two missiles to normal vets for a cheaper price.

 

Now with regards to Terminator Squads I think they still need some kind of defensive buff before we can consider them properly, they die like flies to my electronic squatter, so it wont matter if they shoot extra shots when they are removed turn one or after the they deepstrike. Deepstriking Killteams are not seen too often for that reason as they get one shot and that's it. Too many battle reports I see a terminator squad simply removed from play by the simplest of means.

[Qui-Gon]

The price of two missile veterans: 34 pts each
Cyclone terminator w/ power sword: 72 pts


Sure, you're 68 vs 72, but that 4 pts difference is the equivalent of the extra storm bolter.

[Delta.Skies]

turns them into expensive intercessors. Either camping or holding down mid range. Im with qui-gon. Cyclone missile. lets not forget that you would be pumping out 20 vengeance rounds at 18 or 20 kraken at 30 with 5 termies. That can deep strike, be slung up the field with beacon or teleport homer. Just gives us more options. That once again, with qui-gon, goodbye stalker bolters.