Warp And Belief: Ideas Made Manifest

[Schlitzaf]

Initial discussion was due to Khorne and Honor. Here is my initial post, reposted on the topic.

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Chaos Gods are to make to Frued comparison, are the id essentially made manifest. The further your devotion form them, the less primal they are (so despite themselves being derived from the id, your initial interaction with them will be coated by societal prejudices or otherwise (the SuperEgo I.e reflection of society see Honor), between that and the god, their appearance will become more of what you want (the Ego)).

 

A good example is Khaine v Khorne. Khaine is Khorne within Eldar Societal beliefs, and within that Khorne warps into being a more ‘honorable’ individual. The closer you get the less constrained by society and more you become a weapon (i.e Khorne like).

 

So do the gods have good traits? In a sense. But those good traits (SuperEgo) the clothings that society gives them and makes them when societal belief is strong enough (Khaine) makes an ultimately complete separate individual.

 

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Too elaborate, Khaine is seperate from Khorne. Or is Khorne given an Aeldari Cloth. The Aeldari had a strong enough collective belief to create an entity whole new from Khorne. But Khaine once you remove the Aeldari trapping is Khorne. A God of War consumed by his desire for carnage and blood.

 

Mork And Gork in this strange comparison would manifestations of Tzeentch And Khorne respectively within the context of Ork culture. This is not to say they aren’t their own actualized individual/gods. Just that they were initially only aspects of the Chaos Gods viewed through the lens of their respective culture.

 

But over time the culture of these races molded these aspects in their own unique entities imposing the concept of Frued’s superego on them. The Freudian concept of the SuperEgo is where the good traits of the Chaos Gods are derived from.

[Moonreaper666]

Initial discussion was due to Khorne and Honor. Here is my initial post, reposted on the topic.

————

 

Chaos Gods are to make to Frued comparison, are the id essentially made manifest. The further your devotion form them, the less primal they are (so despite themselves being derived from the id, your initial interaction with them will be coated by societal prejudices or otherwise (the SuperEgo I.e reflection of society see Honor), between that and the god, their appearance will become more of what you want (the Ego)).

 

A good example is Khaine v Khorne. Khaine is Khorne within Eldar Societal beliefs, and within that Khorne warps into being a more ‘honorable’ individual. The closer you get the less constrained by society and more you become a weapon (i.e Khorne like).

 

So do the gods have good traits? In a sense. But those good traits (SuperEgo) the clothings that society gives them and makes them when societal belief is strong enough (Khaine) makes an ultimately complete separate individual.

 

————

Too elaborate, Khaine is seperate from Khorne. Or is Khorne given an Aeldari Cloth. The Aeldari had a strong enough collective belief to create an entity whole new from Khorne. But Khaine once you remove the Aeldari trapping is Khorne. A God of War consumed by his desire for carnage and blood.

 

Mork And Gork in this strange comparison would manifestations of Tzeentch And Khorne respectively within the context of Ork culture. This is not to say they aren’t their own actualized individual/gods. Just that they were initially only aspects of the Chaos Gods viewed through the lens of their respective culture.

 

But over time the culture of these races molded these aspects in their own unique entities imposing the concept of Frued’s superego on them. The Freudian concept of the SuperEgo is where the good traits of the Chaos Gods are derived from.

Khaine might be one of the Old Ones in Eldar form

 

Khaine existed before the War in Heaven

[Kinstryfe]

As I had always understood it (and full disclosure, the fluff is ever changing so this may not still be the case), you're pretty much correct. All gods exist in the warp, and all gods essentially fall on an emotional spectrum that sort of feeds the baser emotions' avatars (or stronger emotions, maybe). This to me was always part of the inevitability and unconquerable aspect of chaos: once enough people believe anything it will coalesce in the warp and far more often than not feed the mega-conglomerations as well as the weaker entity.

 

So if your cult worships a god of healing, eventually with enough billions or quadrillions of faith units that god will effectively coalesce as a warp entity among other gods of similar emotions, somewhere inside the tremendous warp eddy that is Nurgle. I do think that there is nothing stating that this god would eventually have to develop negative traits or that it's worshippers would eventually fall to Nurgle, but I think the temptations could be there stronger than with the other major warp powers. Your adolation for the healing god could also in some ways feed Nurgle, whether intended or not. However if you ended up with a Galaxy spanning culture, you could create a minor warp entity strong enough that it would have a much more stable grip on itself. That's how I see the Eldar gods. The example of Khaine being a large, stable warp entity with overlap with Khorne, but still distinctive.

 

I think a big thing that's often missed is that all the good qualities and emotions of Mankind (and some Xenos races) are a part of the roiling currents that make up the main Chaos gods. I think we like 75% agree on that, but I'd argue that all those qualities are there, but don't have the same purity of purpose as the lesser virtues and emotions. Khorne is the god of (among other things) murder and bravery, but it takes a lot more effort to be brave and usually a lot more passion to murder, so murder feeds him more.

 

Then again, this is all a fictional metaphysical process, so we can only make our best guesses and the fluff has certainly not been straightforward with the "rules" of the warp.

[Closet Skeleton]

Khaine might be one of the Old Ones in Eldar form

 

Khaine existed before the War in Heaven

 

Khaine is a warp entity, the old ones were not but I suppose we can't rule out some of them having ascended. Vaul and the Old Ones are confused in Eldar mythology but Cegorach and the Deciever are also confused so we can't say Vaul = Old Ones.

 

Khaine didn't exist before the War in Heaven because the Eldar didn't. The Necrons lost the first stage of the War in Heaven and then brought in the C'tan to counter attack. The Old Ones then created psychic races to counter attack against the C'tan. Khaine gained the Aspect of the Dark Reaper by defeating the Night Bringer. So the Eldar Gods were psychic weapons the Old Ones created to fight the C'tan, with the stone age primitive eldar basically just being god batteries.

 

Khaine vastly predates Khorne who is a human deity. Khorne isn't inherently stronger than Khaine, its just that Slaanesh wiped out the Eldar so humans are currently predominant in the galaxy. Slaanesh was able to wipe out the Eldar pantheon because he's an Eldar created deity. Khorne and Slaansesh hate each other because they got into an argument about who Khaine belonged to, so Khaine is somewhere between Khorne and Slaanesh, not just the Eldar Khorne (though Khorne would argue otherwise).

 

All gods overlap because they're all aspects of the Warp.

[Kastor Krieg]

I'm totally not buying the "all eldar gods are reflections / aspects of the Chaos Four".

 

What about Isha, the absolute antithesis of Nurgle who is so opposite to him that can survive in the Gardens of Nurgle indefinitely without being tainted? What about god of death (as in, passing to and from death, Charon archetype) Ynnead, the archenemy of Slaanesh, whose magic has undone the Rubric of Tzeentch through Yvraine? Kurnoth? Morai-Heg?

[Panzer]

As I see it there are basically pools of emotions. Let's just go with rage as example. Khorne is the purest representation of this pool so Khorne is basically the pool. However religion etc can artificially separate parts of these pools, even take parts of the others and mix them, and create another god out of it. That means that pool of rage would now be Khorne, and a much smaller part of it, Khaine as well. Khaine is not Khorne but both are rage. And as Khaine is an ariticial creation as far as it comes to warpstuff instead of pure primordial emotion like Khorne it basically constantly battles against getting swallowed up by Khorne.

Kinda the same as the Horned Rat in fantasy/AoS is part of Tzeentchs and part of Nurgles pools and only exists because of the Skaven religion.

Then there are gods who don't claim parts of these pools for themselves like Gork and Mork (tho one could argue its Khorne and Tzeentch due the brutal and cunnin) and other very minor gods. Those are less at risk to get swallowed by the big four because they don't try to claim "territory".

Khorne sending daemons to fight against Khaine or similar material actions even if they happen in the warp are just mortal interpretations of two concepts struggling against eachother.

 

That's my take on it at least.

[Finkmilkana]

I’ve always though that emotions and believes are different kind of ‚energies‘ in the warp. The chaos gods are formed by and feed of pure emotion. The gods of the eldar, and to some degree, the god part of the emperor, are formed and feed of believe. This makes the chaos gods more primal, and often more powerful than other gods, but also more unfocused.

An entity of belief like the eldar gods can in theory. be consciously shaped by whatever race/culture created it, but it is only ever as strong as the belief in it is. The chaos gods on the other hand don’t need belief, just emotion. This allowed slanesh to easily devour the eldar gods: on the peak of their excess, the eldar didn’t belief anymore, they only sought pleasure.

While this is mainly just head canon, this would also explain the connection beim Khaine and Khorne. Khaine is a god of war, and as such he was able to siphon some power from the emotions one feels during battle as well. This quite likely was also what gave him the power to fight slanesh off: the eldar at that point might not have been big on belief, but they all where quite literally fighting for their lives and souls. But these emotions are a dangerous source of power, as they are Khornes primary domain. While Khain in all likelihood always in a sense partially consisted of energies that Khorne sees as a part of himself, this now suddenly lead to these emotional energies being the main source of Khaines continued defiance. The more the eldar and Khaine fought desperately to survive, the more of Khornes energies he absorbed and the stronger Khornes pull on him became until there was so much „emotional energie“ that the basic belief structure that gave Khaine form shattered under the strain. All the khornate energie at this point was ripped out of Khaine and went back to its rightful owner Khorne, while the remaining shards of what once was Khaine became the avatar cores.

[Closet Skeleton]

Khaine didn't fight off Slaanesh, he got smashed into lots of bits by Slaanesh and then the bits escaped to become the Avatars thanks to Khorne intervening.

 

Kinda the same as the Horned Rat in fantasy/AoS is part of Tzeentchs and part of Nurgles pools and only exists because of the Skaven religion.

 

Fantasy gods don't work the way 40k ones do. The fantasy chaos gods are alien entities that invaded the Old World (and the mortal realms) from outside.

 

 

I'm totally not buying the "all eldar gods are reflections / aspects of the Chaos Four".

 

The Eldar and Chaos gods are all aspects of the warp itself and therefore share their core essence but the various pantheons don't have to overlap completely.

[Panzer]

Khaine didn't fight off Slaanesh, he got smashed into lots of bits by Slaanesh and then the bits escaped to become the Avatars thanks to Khorne intervening.

 

Kinda the same as the Horned Rat in fantasy/AoS is part of Tzeentchs and part of Nurgles pools and only exists because of the Skaven religion.

 

Fantasy gods don't work the way 40k ones do. The fantasy chaos gods are alien entities that invaded the Old World (and the mortal realms) from outside.

Uh that's pretty much what they do in 40k as well tho. The eye of terror is nothing else than the poles in the old world.

[Closet Skeleton]

Fantasy gods don't work the way 40k ones do. The fantasy chaos gods are alien entities that invaded the Old World (and the mortal realms) from outside.

Uh that's pretty much what they do in 40k as well tho. The eye of terror is nothing else than the poles in the old world.

 

 

The Eye of Terror is a translated concept of the old world chaos wastes but the 40k Chaos gods have a history within the material universe and were created by the emotions of people from the material. The fantasy/AoS gods on the other hand predate the material universe which has a fixed history.

[Panzer]

If we want to go that much into detail of the history of the games then the old ones in fantasy arrived via space ship and it was heavily implied that the old world was just a random world in the 40k universe hidden by a warpstorm. Really, the history might be different of the two settings but the warp is pretty much the exact same thing.

[Scribe]

I'm totally not buying the "all eldar gods are reflections / aspects of the Chaos Four".

 

What about Isha, the absolute antithesis of Nurgle who is so opposite to him that can survive in the Gardens of Nurgle indefinitely without being tainted? What about god of death (as in, passing to and from death, Charon archetype) Ynnead, the archenemy of Slaanesh, whose magic has undone the Rubric of Tzeentch through Yvraine? Kurnoth? Morai-Heg?

 

Ynnead, as implemented, broke the mythos. I'm still waiting for something to fix it.

 

Lets not forget that a lot of what we 'see' or understand, is metaphysical. Its allegory, and metaphor. Why is Isha with Nurgle? Because yes she literally is 'part' of Nurgle. Nurgle is the God of Despair, but he's also the god of life, and growth. Why did Khaine 'shatter'? Because he was fought over by Khorne (who rightfully claimed Khaine as part of His Portfolio) and Slaanesh, who claimed all Eldar Gods.

 

Ynnead is a freaking mess. If anyone has more lore on that, let me know so I can go pick it up and read it.

 

 

 

Khorne sending daemons to fight against Khaine or similar material actions even if they happen in the warp are just mortal interpretations of two concepts struggling against eachother.

 

I like this, and it explains exactly how Isha is also part of Nurgle.

[Bryan Blaire]

Lets not forget that a lot of what we 'see' or understand, is metaphysical. Its allegory, and metaphor. Why is Isha with Nurgle? Because yes she literally is 'part' of Nurgle. Nurgle is the God of Despair, but he's also the god of life, and growth. Why did Khaine 'shatter'? Because he was fought over by Khorne (who rightfully claimed Khaine as part of His Portfolio) and Slaanesh, who claimed all Eldar Gods.

That sounds more like personal interpretation of text than something that GW actually wrote somewhere, but is there actual GW text written that supports as stated what you said?

[Scribe]

Yes it's all interpretation, but Khorne isn't some dude sitting on a throne.

 

I'd have to do some searching but I do believe that the shattering of Khaine was written, and depending on your accepted sources, the Isha/Nurgle relationship is written down as well.

[Bryan Blaire]

Well, you said that Ynnead "broke" they mythos, but is it possible that it isn't broken at all, but the folks that write at GW actually know more about the real workings of the background and there's something more to it about the Warp and it's metaphysicality than the interpretation proposed can account for. It's very possible that there is nothing to "fix" at all, that the metaphysical system is working exactly as intended.

 

All gods may not simply be facets of the Chaos three plus the entirely Eldar created one (which itself somewhat begs the question of why did there need to be/was there the creation of a God of Excess when acts of excess themselves would already feed some facet of the other three)...

[Panzer]

All gods may not simply be facets of the Chaos three plus the entirely Eldar created one (which itself somewhat begs the question of why did there need to be/was there the creation of a God of Excess when acts of excess themselves would already feed some facet of the other three)...

Well it's also said that Slaanesh already existed before its birth. It's one of the great examples of how the warp doesn't make much sense logically.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

I'm totally not buying the "all eldar gods are reflections / aspects of the Chaos Four".

 

What about Isha, the absolute antithesis of Nurgle who is so opposite to him that can survive in the Gardens of Nurgle indefinitely without being tainted? What about god of death (as in, passing to and from death, Charon archetype) Ynnead, the archenemy of Slaanesh, whose magic has undone the Rubric of Tzeentch through Yvraine? Kurnoth? Morai-Heg?

 

Ynnead, as implemented, broke the mythos. I'm still waiting for something to fix it.

 

 

Ynnead broke the mythos because that's kinda the whole point of Ynnead. It's literally an outsider. If it grew within the Warp, it'd be nothing but fodder for Slaanesh, consumed as each Eldar soul entered the Warp. As it is, Ynnead was allowed to develop within the safety of the Infinity Circuit, and has been able to develop to the point that it's equally a god comprised of Eldar souls, in the hopes that it'll be able to usurp Slaanesh in a similar way that it did upon its birth.

 

 

All gods may not simply be facets of the Chaos three plus the entirely Eldar created one (which itself somewhat begs the question of why did there need to be/was there the creation of a God of Excess when acts of excess themselves would already feed some facet of the other three)...

 

Well, that could be exactly why the birth of Slaanesh was so traumatic. Before the Fall, Slaanesh may have existed simply as equal parts of Tzeentch and Nurgle (seeking desire, and exultation of life), although in the parts of the warp diametrically opposite to Khorne. Then the Fall occurs, and proto-Slaanesh gains enough power through consuming souls that it becomes able to stand on equal footing with the Three, and claim an area of the Warp for itself.

[Scribe]

Well, you said that Ynnead "broke" they mythos, but is it possible that it isn't broken at all, but the folks that write at GW actually know more about the real workings of the background and there's something more to it about the Warp and it's metaphysicality than the interpretation proposed can account for. It's very possible that there is nothing to "fix" at all, that the metaphysical system is working exactly as intended.

 

All gods may not simply be facets of the Chaos three plus the entirely Eldar created one (which itself somewhat begs the question of why did there need to be/was there the creation of a God of Excess when acts of excess themselves would already feed some facet of the other three)...

 

Note: Not all Gods are Chaos. I do not mean to imply that the Eldar Gods where originally Khorne/Nurgle/Tzeentch/Slaanesh all along. If thats what you took from my posts, I apologize for not being clear.

 

My issues with Ynnead are more 'I feel this is wrong, based on all that went before.' It feels (again since there isnt a ton of material to my knowledge) like more of a ret con, than anything else.

 

Though I like Lord_Caerolion's post there.

 

Again, if there is more lore on Ynnead, can anyone point me to it, or is Gathering Storm stuff it?

[Lord_Caerolion]

There's not much background on Ynnead before Gathering Storm, just brief mentions in the Eldar fluff, particularly that of Eldrad, being that there are some Eldar who believe that the Infinity Circuit is creating a new God, that some thought that underneath the voices of the dead, they could hear the heartbeat of a slumbering giant. A lot of Eldar society thought this was wishful thinking, but there was a faction amongst the Craftworlders (led by Eldrads mentor, from memory), who believed that the Craftworlds had unintentionally created a new God, one of Death, that upon the interment of every Eldar soul within the Infinity Circuit would become strong enough to challenge Slaanesh within the Warp, and achieve salvation for the Eldar race.

The leadup to Gathering Storm was basically Eldrad trying to hothouse Ynnead, and find a way to cause his awakening without the whole "racial extinction" thing. As with most things in 40k, it screwed up, but kinda half worked. Ynnead still slumbers, mostly, but was able to be given enough of a jolt that a portion did manage to wake, forming the Yncarne, after having imbued Yvraine with his power.

 

TL;DR? Before Gathering Storm, Ynnead was nothing but a half-believed "Wolftime" myth, that maybe instead of the Rhana Dhandra ending in mutually assured destruction, they might be able to engineer it so that everyone still dies, but the Eldar end up part of a god they chose, rather than Slaanesh.

[Kinstryfe]

I too believe that Slaanesh is an example of an "unnatural" warp deity. I liken it to Ynnead or if The Emperor were to ascend to true godhood. Ynnead seems to be different in that it's only sort of a warp entity as explained above, but I do wonder if; given how Slaanesh existed even before her birth; all of the various miracles attributed to The Emperor aren't proof that he someday will ascend. His affecting things before his ascention don't make sense in real space but make perfect sense for the warp. It could also explain why he is anathema to chaos: he's incompatible with chaos because he's himself a different warp entity in the "future", the same way that (random example) you won't find a Bloodthirster with the mark of Nurgle. It could also explain a bit about why while belief in The Emperor can yield miraculous results, you don't see genestealer cults getting boons from the four armed Emperor, and so on.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, Ynnead is a Warp entity, it's just one that grew up in isolation, rather than within the wider Warp. It's still a being made entirely from Warp-energy. If Slaanesh weren't so intent on corrupting and consuming every Eldar soul that it gets its claws on, Ynnead may even have been able to develop in the Warp like Slaanesh did. 

Slaanesh is similar to Ynnead in a way, in that they're both embodiments of the most primal aspects of where they developed. The Emperor, on the other hand, is unrelated to this, as the Emperor is actively worshipped as a god, and is both empowered and shaped by that worship. Slaanesh may have existed before its birth, but it couldn't act on the material realm.

 

The way I always rationalise it is to picture the Great Game as literally that, a boardgame, with the players being the various Gods, and the board being realspace. Now, the players exist independent of the current state of the game, but actually getting to roll dice or move tokens? That takes direct involvement. Slaanesh existed before the Fall, watching the game from the sidelines, slowly getting involved, until it got "dealt in" when the Fall occurred, and was then able to start "taking turns" and directly acting instead of watching from the sidelines.

 

EDIT: Just to expand on this, it's also helpful to explain how the Chaos Gods are timeless, and yet, for example, Nurgle's power can wax and wane as plagues bloom and die across the galaxy. The Chaos Gods are timeless, not bound by physical laws, etc, yeah, but that's the Gods themselves. The players sitting around the table. What is bound by time and reality is the "tokens" they have access to at any one time to make their plays in the Great Game. To make things interesting, or to gloat, or for whatever reason it is, they limit themselves to what influence they would have at that moment in time. Basically, just as you can't slap down an actual $20 note in Monopoly to give yourself the funds to purchase a property, Khorne can't have Angron banished for 888 years only to declare "Nu uh! We're timeless, so time is meaningless to us, so I'm sending Angron straight back into battle!"

[Scribe]

I think thats a solution I can run with actually for Ynnead, and the eventual Emperor As Warp Power.

 

Ynnead was able to develop not because of all the souls of the dead, because those souls either go to Soul Stones, Cegorash, or Slaanesh. My error was in thinking of those Souls in the Stones as gone unable to used.

 

If they are the drops that form the pool of a new god, even one formed in isolation, well...fine. 10,000 years of Souls offered up? Thats fine.

 

Which leads me to.

 

What other being has been fueled with 10,000 years of suffering, ritual death, and the consumption of not just souls but PSYKER souls? The Emperor via the Golden Throne and the Astronomicon. This could be seen as a way to deny those souls to the Chaos Gods, much like the Soul Stones denied Slaanesh, fueling the eventual apotheosis of the Emperor, into a full Warp Power.

 

I like that quite a bit.

[Kastor Krieg]

What other being has been fueled with 10,000 years of suffering, ritual death, and the consumption of not just souls but PSYKER souls? The Emperor via the Golden Throne and the Astronomicon. This could be seen as a way to deny those souls to the Chaos Gods, much like the Soul Stones denied Slaanesh, fueling the eventual apotheosis of the Emperor, into a full Warp Power.

If it ever actually comes to that, now it makes me wonder. Was the 180-degree retcon in Black Templars fluff (switching them from last exemplars of Imperial Truth with only the surface pretense of religiousness, at around 4e, to actual Emperor-bothering pre-Heresy Word Bearers) intentional and a foretelling of this event, with them planned as avangarde of the Emperor-As-God and Ministorum reinforced vs Guilliman's constant push for the secularity he remembers?

[Scribe]

Honestly when I look at Ynnead's creation, and how it only (to me) makes sense when those Soul's in Waiting essentially were both denied to a Warp God, and then provided as one's source of power...it makes perfect sense that one day, when we need another shot in the arm for 40K, that GW will 'In Emergency Break Glass' and that is a very good explanation for how the Emperor would be empowered.

[Lexington]

If it ever actually comes to that, now it makes me wonder. Was the 180-degree retcon in Black Templars fluff (switching them from last exemplars of Imperial Truth with only the surface pretense of religiousness, at around 4e, to actual Emperor-bothering pre-Heresy Word Bearers) intentional and a foretelling of this event, with them planned as avangarde of the Emperor-As-God and Ministorum reinforced vs Guilliman's constant push for the secularity he remembers?

Was this a retcon? It's been a while, and I don't have the old BT Codexes on me to confirm, but I'm pretty sure the Black Templars had a very religious outlook from their first "fleshing out" back in the 3rd Ed Armageddon Codex. One heavily influenced by the crusading warrior archetype, but revere-and-worship was a big part of that, IIRC. Certainly the concept of the Imperial Truth didn't come along until sometime in mid/late 4th Edition, in the Heresy artbooks.

 

Either way, I'm fairly certain that nothing done during the 6th Ed books was done with the current setting in mind. The big changes to the Templars seem to have been done because they were folded back into the Marine Codex, and there was some (fairly misguided, IMO) effort to bring them in line with traditional Astartes practices.