domsto Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 So after the huge point drop from the CA2018 and the help from the Vigilus book Kataphrones are looking better than ever. But was it enough to make them valid now? Because they are some pricy models i am not sure if i should expand my collection of them now or they are still Dust collectors So what's the opinion of you fellow Tech Adepts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempestBlade Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 I used the new specialist detachment for them and a group of 6. Turn one my Opponent rushed an imperial knight up the board and got into combat with 2 kastellan robots I had. He missed a lot and on my turn I fell back with the robots and used 2 stratagems: noospheric mindlock (1 cp: +1 to hit with k. destroyers) and elimination volley (2 cp: +1 to hit on k. Destroyers and robot). All the k. Destroyers had the plasma gun and a Dominus behind them. Roll well on my shots (30ish out of possible 36) and they all overcharged hitting on 2s rerolling 1s wounding on 4s. I ended up doing 20 damage to the knight. Long story short: k destroyers and the specialist detachment will be making an appearance in mostly all of the admech lists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5229434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz1858 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 I will be running 5 destroyers as part of my 2k list on Saturday at a tourney and will update afterwards Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5229552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzuteo Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I personally am running 6x Ryza Plasmaphrons in a mixed Forge World detachment (with a Cawlstar and Graia support units), who will hide in magic bunkers until it is safe to come out and shoot. In any case, the interesting question is now IF we will run Kataphrons, but HOW we will run them. I usually am over at the Dakka forums, and the primary issue is still protecting them. I think the leaders are: Ryza: 6x Plasmaphrons + Dominus; Noospheric Mindlock + Plasma Specialists Lucius: 12x Plasmaphrons + 2x Dakkabots + Dominus w/ Flare; DS + Noospheric Mindlock + Elimination Volley Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5229676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Last game I used 5 arc breachers as Carl's bodyguard, and they did perform quite well. At 30ppm and T5/2+/3W (shroudpsalm) and getting repaired, they were not really an attractive target choice and did the bodyguard part well enough for the 150p I payed for them.Arc weaponry may be unreliable when it comes to wounding, but with 36" range they can at least shoot every single turn. And anything getting through doing d6 damage was nice, they one-shotted a VenDread/predator in 2 out of 3 turns.Just did the maths for the main weapons - with plasma destroyers around Carl (and no other buffs) you pay 22p per wound taken off a T8/3+/no invul vehicle, or 16,5p against T7. With breachers it's 25p against either - not much difference at T8, but quite a lot at T7.The math just turns around when facing the usual 5++ (knights, armigers, special dreads, demon engines), then plasma goes down to 27ppW (T8) or 20ppW (T7) while arc stays at 25ppW.All in all, breachers have an improved save (3+ instead of 4+) and more wounds (150p are 5 breachers or 3 destroyers), making them a usable choice if going for a bodyguard/defensive unit.Destroyers on the other hand have a higher shot number against mass infantry, and wound the same against monsters as they do against vehicles (which arc doesn't).Both appear to be usable choices. As I'm trying out mine to essentially form the core of a Carl-centered plasma vanguard horde, I'm going for more bodies and better save, and let the skitarii take care of the smaller targets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5229807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BolterZorro Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 It seems that GW did really well with this CA (pts reduction) + vigilus (Strata) move for Admech. We kinda rediscover our codex and make it a bit momre competitive. Well done GW! (BTW, I love the kataphron minis) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5229855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I honestly think breachers are insanely good now for 30ppm. They perform solidly against all targets with their weapon and are just a whole chunk of wounds to chew through with minimal impact if lost. Not to mention they fill out troop slots in a Battalion! Destroyers are still a touch glass cannon-y, but shroud psalm helps. The new Vigilus detachment greatly benefits them with the servitor sacrifice/ resurrection and cheap accuracy buffs (no more overheats!) and should be used if you want to include them. Plasma/ Grav depends on your list but it's very hard to argue with massed S8 shots. Always bring more than you think you need IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5229879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 It seems that GW did really well with this CA (pts reduction) + vigilus (Strata) move for Admech. We kinda rediscover our codex and make it a bit momre competitive. Well done GW! (BTW, I love the kataphron minis) My thoughts exactly. We still have a few overcosted/underperforming units (balistarii, radium dragoons, ruststalkers), but CA did make some unviable units playable. Not tournament grade auto-includes, but filling a certain role properly without self-handicapping, the way it should be... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5229912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I've been running 3 Plasma Destroyers since CA2 and Vigilus for the specialist detachment. It's not working. They disappear far too quickly for me for their price, even with the 5++ invuln. The thing is people focus them big time which does lend some breathing room on Kataphrons, but I really can't decide if that makes it a good or horrible idea to expand the squad. In my last two games I never got to use my Servitor ability. (the squad is ignored until someone feels like wiping them.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5229923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I've been running 3 Plasma Destroyers since CA2 and Vigilus for the specialist detachment. It's not working. They disappear far too quickly for me for their price, even with the 5++ invuln. The thing is people focus them big time which does lend some breathing room on Kataphrons, but I really can't decide if that makes it a good or horrible idea to expand the squad. In my last two games I never got to use my Servitor ability. (the squad is ignored until someone feels like wiping them.) I think more than 3 will see a drastic improvement in performance here, could be wrong but will make them less swingy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5229926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostglaive Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I've been running 3 Plasma Destroyers since CA2 and Vigilus for the specialist detachment. It's not working. They disappear far too quickly for me for their price, even with the 5++ invuln. The thing is people focus them big time which does lend some breathing room on Kataphrons, but I really can't decide if that makes it a good or horrible idea to expand the squad. In my last two games I never got to use my Servitor ability. (the squad is ignored until someone feels like wiping them.) I think more than 3 will see a drastic improvement in performance here, could be wrong but will make them less swingy. When I run squads of 3 Kataphrons, they crumble fairly quickly. Plus the amount of CP I spend on them to all have a 5++ invul adds up fast too. Squads of 6 is my sweet spot for them. Tons of firepower for Destroyers or durability for Breachers, not as much CP being spent for their buffed invul, and it capitalizes on the +1 to hit strat even more for them. And I find they have a better chance at surviving longer, allowing me to get the servitor sacrifice off easier for them. For gits and shiggles, I tried a squad of 12 Breachers in one game. It was against a casual Grey Knight / Cadian soup list... it did a number on them. Shroudpsalm and the 5++ invul kept them alive, Acquisition At All Costs gave them more survivability and attacks to hold the central objective, servitor sacrifices and my dominus behind them kept them healed and rerolling 1's.... It was brutal. I don't recommend running a full squad of 12 for either variant to be honest. They'll either wreck shop in casual games or get wrecked hard in more competitive games and/or against more competitive armies. 6 is my sweet spot. And at least 1 squad of 6 is now an auto-include in most games for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5229934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Only 3 destroyers is no hard target anyway. It's like running a single tank at 1500p, only to see it targeted by every single AT weapon and instantly exploding. Threat saturation and target priority management will keep a unit alive better than spending CP on that 5++. A combination of more servitors, more urgent targets to shoot at (scary tanks, charging infantry), and making it a less attractive target (cover, -1 to hit, healing,...) would be an option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5229936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Do all breachers/ destroyers in the units need to be armed the same or can you mix weapons? Codex isn't to hand... I ask because with the lower cost and buffs to hit, maybe a couple of Torsion cannons are worth mixing in if possible? Hitting on a 3+ (Vigilus strat) in addition to any other hit buffs could make them pretty awesome. 20pts per cannon isn't too hard to swallow... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5229958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostglaive Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 20pts for a Heavy 1 multimelta without the melta rule. Yeah... no. Regular multimeltas are cheaper. Never go Torsion Cannon. It's a waste of points Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5229970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Do all breachers/ destroyers in the units need to be armed the same or can you mix weapons? Codex isn't to hand... I ask because with the lower cost and buffs to hit, maybe a couple of Torsion cannons are worth mixing in if possible? Hitting on a 3+ (Vigilus strat) in addition to any other hit buffs could make them pretty awesome. 20pts per cannon isn't too hard to swallow... Torsion cannons are multi meltas without melta rule. At somewhat 45p per shot, requiring CP to even get marine grade BS, doesn't sound very useful to me. We have a lot of better AT to do the trick instead. Also, the reason heavy arc rifles work is because they have a higher number of shots, and are pretty much always in range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5229978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I guess my analysis is coming from outside of a Vaccum. The High S and AP is valuable and not available in many places in Ad Mech. A torsion cannon is cheaper than other imperial Multi Meltas (though only 2pts) and being "hidden" in the squad means its tough to remove them. 4+ with some buffs from a Dominus or Cawl is reliable enough if you take 2 per 6 as some added bite. The Heavy Arc is exceptional, but there might be some merit in the torsion guns sprinkled in. Then again, 26 pts gets you a whole other breacher....? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5230004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
domsto Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 So all the Varients have their place now i quess? But the Plasma Destroyers seem to be the most competetiv one. Thats great news^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5230028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I guess my analysis is coming from outside of a Vaccum. The High S and AP is valuable and not available in many places in Ad Mech. A torsion cannon is cheaper than other imperial Multi Meltas (though only 2pts) and being "hidden" in the squad means its tough to remove them. 4+ with some buffs from a Dominus or Cawl is reliable enough if you take 2 per 6 as some added bite. We do get S8 - plasma calivers are cheap, plasma culverins have more range and a lot more shots than torsions (and cost almost the same), both with eliminating the overcharge risk entirely. The difference between AP-3 and -4 seems not very big - most T8 units have invuls anyway, anything above -2 or maybe -3 will be worthless anyway. The issue I have with torsion is that the single shot is unreliable. Each single failed hit roll, single failed wound roll (against T8 it's still a coin toss), single passed invul or single bad random damage roll wastes 45p of firepower. Plasmaphrons simply have more, reliable firepower. Instead of 1x D6 damage, it's D6x 2 damage each. Same hit/wound/save roll, meaning it's flat out twice the damage unless facing 3+ or 2+ save, in which case it will be marginally less than twice the firepower. With 36" instead of 24", also it would start shooting earlier, at targets of its choice. Mixing one or two torsions into a breacher squad adds not much besides points (2 torsion upgrades would be +1 arc breacher model). The mentioned reliability problem would only increase with lower number of torsion shots per unit. If it had 2 shots instead of 1, and points remained the same, it would be worth considering. The way it is, go cheap and cheerful for arc breachers (tanky) or plasmaphrons (shooty). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5230059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanPesci Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 I'm taking 6x Breachers to my next game. I already have plasma in my vanguard and my onagers cover anti tank support. Breachers will stick to my back line. 6 of them can take up an obscene amount of space for denial, or huddle into cover around an objective. 2+/5++ save in cover (or with shroudsalm) on a 3 wound T5 model than can be regenned with servitors/fixed by priests? Yes please. And, they aren't that shoddy in CC either if you want to counter attack some deepstrike etc. 3 attacks each with S6 -1AP actually has a chance of doing some damage even with the WS4. Actually...at the moment I cant decide wether its worth the extra point to upgrade to hydraulic claws...sure theyre hitting on 5s...but at S10 d3 damage...its tempting (still only -1 ap though) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5231758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostglaive Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 I've been running 2x 6-man Breacher squads w/ Arcs and Hydraulics... They've been putting in some work. Fought Deathwatch last night and they just blew through my opponent's kill teams. The one team that actually managed to get the charge off was then murdered in CC by those Hydraulic claws. The 5's to hit does suck, but the volley of attacks (plus the possible reroll 1's in CC for canticles) I think makes up for that 1pt difference. Breachers are an auto-include in most of my 2,000pt lists now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5231799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aztec Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Guess I need to dust off my destroyers and give them a go, havent really touch them this edition at all. Is there an opinion on Phospher Blaster vs Flamer? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5231829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanPesci Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Guess I need to dust off my destroyers and give them a go, havent really touch them this edition at all. Is there an opinion on Phospher Blaster vs Flamer? If going destroyers id personally go phosphor over flamer simply as it matches up with their range a lot better. Flamers can be a decent charge deterrent, but you're destroyers shouldnt be getting that close in the first place Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5231842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Honestly with the current points of flamers I’ve been using them on my Destroyers. You can mix and match I believe but I do love their overwatch rule and my meta has some fast, brutal, assault armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5231991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeStinyFiSh Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 I had 1 game with 6 Plasma Destroyers, 6 Grav Destroyers and 6 Arc Breachers in a 2000 points list a few weeks ago. My opponent had a Tyranid list with hardly any shooting at all, so with a bit of screening the Servitors survived his turn 1 unharmed. In return I was easily able to kill 3-4 units and monsters per turn. After turn 3 he gave up. He had about 600 points left on the table while I still had 1400 points standing. An army with more shooting might be more trouble, but if you get the chance to pull the trigger they are amazing. My forgeworld was Agripinaa and I had the Servitor Maniple with some cheap Servitors for Biosplicing. So my Destroyers had 18 wound, T5, 4+ (3+ with Shroudpsalm), 5++ (Maniple Stratagem), could be healed by Tech Priests, Ressurected for Bio Splicing or recycled for Fresh Converts. So there was no reason for me to fear loosing them to quick. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5232110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Interesting. How did the different loadouts (grav/plasma/arc) fare in direct comparison? And what did you use for screening, the more resilient servitors or something else? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352923-opinion-on-post-ca-kataphrons/#findComment-5232114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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