Different Marine Types: Insights from Phil Kelly interview

[Doghouse]

From around the 45 minute mark in the Phil Kelly interview on Vox Cast it starts to get a little interesting after discussing the whole reasoning of how they went from the Calgar Primaris model to then having to come up for a reason and rules behind him. But the bit that especially peaked my interest is that they moved on to discuss the Primaris in more detail. I think had this conversation been had in the open sooner it may have cleared the air a bit.

 

Phil broke it down into the following;

 

Cawl is ordered to make Primaris armies by Guilliman who then went unexpectedly into stasis. Cawl being rather literal here carried on making every variation of Primaris and by the time he gets to the present day had gone "quite mad" in all of his brains and at no point released these armies to the Imperium. One example given being the Scouring, this works fairly well but we all know really that these guys have been retroactively introduced to the game so this works as some reasoning for that.

 

The interesting part is when they discussed the "three waves" of the Primaris. I've made a quick transcript regarding this part of the interview for those that don't want to watch the whole thing discussing the first wave: 

 

PK: "...those original Primaris that are deployed through, you know, the Ultima founding, the Indominitus Crusade. Those are almost like a different breed of Space Marine. A much earlier version of Space Marine and inflected with martian technology with some Mechanicus ideals as well as Terran or Sol System ideals as well. So they are a very different culture and they speak in a different way and behave in a different way. And yeah, a lot of Space Marines see them with suspicion, they see them as strangers, kinda like a perversion of all that is their culture."

 

Wade: "And has echoes of the Great Crusade, going to have the Terran Marines mixed in with Fenrisian Space Wolves Legionaires and you're going to have that mix of we're all wearing the same power armour and we've all got the same commander but I don't understand a word that guy is saying but he's got a very heavy accent that doesn't really correspond with the way I understand things to work. It's to see that, the Great Crusade parallels. The Indominus crusade is a very very different time and a different objective, the Emperor's Great Crusade had a much more optimistic outlook and it really is just a defensive war trying to hold on at this stage for the people of the Imperium...there is maybe a misconception that the introduction of the Primaris Space Marines meant the Imperium was on the front foot and things look great. But it's absolutely not that, that would probably be that and Guilliman would be the only reason there is any kind of Imperium whatsoever."

 

 

This fits well with how I had hoped and imagined how they would be, Astartes of a much earlier era and it is discussed how certain more secretive chapters would be apposed to them joining their ranks or secret orders such as the Dark Angels or Flesh Tearers. There was talk of tension between the two species of marine in some areas and the impression given is some chapters may be willing to take up arms if forced to use them. The majority of chapters just seem to accept them because they are support, a bit like being down to your last few bullets and someone hands you a fresh clip of ammo. You don't care where it came from you just know it works and you use it.

 

They do not discuss the Second wave but I am guessing that they mean those Primaris created in modern times. I think a lot of people forget these guys have been around in lore for about a century and many Chapters have embraced the extra support recruiting their own new Primaris.

 

The Third wave is quite interesting as they talk about traditional Astartes that are made into Primaris in the same way Calger was and how they wanted it to be a trial where it's not so much you add the organs and hey presto you are biggerised but more of this process kills you and it's a success if you recover if you are one of the lucky 61%.

The idea is that if it was easy then why would any Astartes pass up the opportunity to become more powerful? So they want to make it a case of this process kills you to remake you.

 

There were also reassurances that they knew that some people would be well into traditional marine armies when they released the Primaris and they didn't want to yank the carpet out from those people. So the compromise of two types of Astartes were created which they said was to make the army more interesting and allow them to explore cultural differences and internal conflicts.

 

Like I say if you only want to hear about the above check out the video on Warhammer TV at the 45 minute mark. 

 

[Robbienw]

It’s funny, cause the initial Primaris (1st type, Cawl created Terrans/Martians) who were the strangers who traditional marines in universe thought might replace them and were the main source of tension, will themselves be replaced with Primaris made from chapters normal recruiting stock (2nd type) and Primaris made from upgraded traditional marines (3rd type).

 

He also got the success and failure figure mixed up, it says in the Vigilus book that the chance of failure was thought to be 61% not vice versa.

[Kinstryfe]

The funny thing to me is that this is such an obvious pathway, but they caused so much panic by not just saying this kind of thing right when Primaris came out. It's such a great story hook (several really) and they've done almost nothing with it.

[Captain Idaho]

Reassurances yet they won't release new Classic Marines etc? Yeah I retain my suspicion.

[chapter master 454]

Well to be fair I suppose Primaris have a more delicate requirement if they are to be used in the long term. Out of the 9 original legions, how many still have viable gene-seeds at 100%? Only 2 if I recall rightly which is the ultramarines and dark angels. The rest are in someway faulted by a lack of organs or some major mental issues (I mean, red thirst primaris? If they can apparent bite through metal cables then what can they do if going zerk?) and considering Cawl had to jury-rig his own version of an organ from what I read in the codex about the primaris, it sounds like they are one implant failure away from being normal astartes. Granted Cawl likely has spares but if they want to last another 10k years, they better have a more sustainable method of maintaining astartes (after all, didn't the night lords "kill" a chapter by attacking and stealing the majority of a chapter gene-seed stock once? Didn't actually kill all the marines but the act doomed the chapter).

[Helias_Tancred]

Not a fan of the lore they're discussing that suggests the first wave of primaris speak some type of different language, embrace some AdMech cultural values or traditions, etc.

 

They were taken from Crusade/30k era marines.

 

IMO its ridiculous and unneeded.

 

 

 

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yes, they're taken from 30k Marines, with 10 thousand years of linguistic drift. Take a look at how quickly languages have spread nowadays, how many regional dialects and types of slang have been created, and yeah, it makes sense that in 10,000 years the original Primaris speak a lot differently than modern Marines.

[Panzer]

Not a fan of the lore they're discussing that suggests the first wave of primaris speak some type of different language, embrace some AdMech cultural values or traditions, etc.

 

They were taken from Crusade/30k era marines.

 

IMO its ridiculous and unneeded.

 

Uhm ... you wouldn't understand a word of the english that was spoken a few hundred years a go. A few thousand years ago english didn't even exist. We're talking about Marines that come from ten.thousand.years. in the past. Of course they'd be hard to understand lol

[Captain Idaho]

Hell I find many Americans can't understand me when I talk, with my fast speech, lack of pronunciation and subtle Hampshire country tones. And that's without even counting local colloquialisms.

 

So I imagine it's quite difficult. Even understanding each other there would be a cultural gap through the language alone.

 

Speaking of which... Black Templars are decidedly religious now yet 30K recruits wouldn't be. I wonder how Primaris integrating in the Black Templars are getting on?

[The Unseen]

Except letting *slang* corrupt your High Gothic is extra heresy, and therefore Blam worthy.

(Imo its the only way I can see the different planets of the Imperium even having a hope of talking to each other, there's probably an entire division of the administratum dedicated entirely towards keeping High Gothic entirely stagnant.

 

Accents probably different though.

However, their low gothic is probably about as understandably to most people as Gaelic is to most English speakers.

That is to say, not.

[Xisor]

Reassurances yet they won't release new Classic Marines etc? Yeah I retain my suspicion.

They didn't want to pull the rug out from under you. Instead, they're implicitly saying: "please get off this rug, it's one day going to be an antique and we don't intend to make any more new ones quite like it".

[Subtleknife]

Not a fan of the lore they're discussing that suggests the first wave of primaris speak some type of different language, embrace some AdMech cultural values or traditions, etc.

 

They were taken from Crusade/30k era marines.

 

IMO its ridiculous and unneeded.

If you look how much the English language has changed over the last 100 years it is very realistic to think they would have trouble conversing with people who came from 10000 years ago. Heck the language wouls diverge pretty quickly between planets too.

[D3L]

 

Reassurances yet they won't release new Classic Marines etc? Yeah I retain my suspicion.

They didn't want to pull the rug out from under you. Instead, they're implicitly saying: "please get off this rug, it's one day going to be an antique and we don't intend to make any more new ones quite like it".

 

which us brits know is tantamount to acknowledging they've finished support for Astartes

[Robbienw]

Well I for one will not get off that rug, nor will I buy the reimagined rug :lol:

[D3L]

Well I for one will not get off that rug, nor will I buy the reimagined rug

indeed, bit of a kick in the teeth really

[Rik Lightstar]

Reassurances yet they won't release new Classic Marines etc? Yeah I retain my suspicion.

Classic Marines have the most complete range of miniatures out of all the races in every system.

 

They're also the most kit-bashable (totally a word, honest) range out there.

 

The Marine Codex has options for pretty much every Battlefield Role, with the exception of the of Lords of War, and the Landraider and Stormraven aren't far off those.

 

Now could the rules be better and make them more competitive? DEFINITELY! But I think we can be pretty certain there's a second edition of the Marine Codex coming *soon*.

 

So really, given the quality of the other releases and new kits we've had, AND the old kits that are the best candidates for a review (CSM Troops, Eldar Aspect Warriors, Ork Boyz, Guard Infantry to name the obvious ones). I as a Marine player with a substantial loyalist Astral Claws force that I can't really be adding Primaris to, can't see any real reason why Marines should be jumping the queue to get new kits.

 

Rik

[Closet Skeleton]

Reassurances yet they won't release new Classic Marines etc? Yeah I retain my suspicion.

 

Haarken World Claimer, those badly received 30k Space Wolves, the entire Death Guard Range and the Space Marine heroes malarky don't count I assume? You do realize that only a single Eldar/Necron has been released since the Primaris came out (two Eldar if you count Blackstone Fortress but then more Kroot have been released in 8th ed than Tau).

 

If GW were prepared to break their word by squating non-Primaris completely, then they'd be so untrustworthy that they might release a ton of limited edition mini-marines and then render them useless a few months latter. They do that with late edition cycle codexes and campaign books so why not miniatures? They basically did that to me with Belisarius Cawl (was a powerful model you could throw into any army on release and is now basically only usable in Admech).

 

Yes, they're taken from 30k Marines, with 10 thousand years of linguistic drift. Take a look at how quickly languages have spread nowadays, how many regional dialects and types of slang have been created, and yeah, it makes sense that in 10,000 years the original Primaris speak a lot differently than modern Marines.

 

30k recruitment stock, not 30k marines embedded in 30k legion cultures.

 

 

Classic Marines have the most complete range of miniatures out of all the races in every system.

 

The bike, terminator and scout models are awful and need replacing but probably won't be.

[Panzer]

 

Reassurances yet they won't release new Classic Marines etc? Yeah I retain my suspicion.

 

Haarken World Claimer, those badly received 30k Space Wolves, the entire Death Guard Range and the Space Marine heroes malarky don't count I assume? You do realize that only a single Eldar/Necron has been released since the Primaris came out (two Eldar if you count Blackstone Fortress but then more Kroot have been released in 8th ed than Tau).

 

If GW were prepared to break their word by squating non-Primaris completely, then they'd be so untrustworthy that they might release a ton of limited edition mini-marines and then render them useless a few months latter. They do that with late edition cycle codexes and campaign books so why not miniatures? They basically did that to me with Belisarius Cawl (was a powerful model you could throw into any army on release and is now basically only usable in Admech).

 

 

How are Chaos Marines, 30k Marines, Eldar, Necrons or T'au releases relevant to the concern about classic Marines? Nobody ever doubted those are still getting releases. It's always been about classic imperial Marines in 40k.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 

Reassurances yet they won't release new Classic Marines etc? Yeah I retain my suspicion.

 

Haarken World Claimer, those badly received 30k Space Wolves, the entire Death Guard Range and the Space Marine heroes malarky don't count I assume? You do realize that only a single Eldar/Necron has been released since the Primaris came out (two Eldar if you count Blackstone Fortress but then more Kroot have been released in 8th ed than Tau).

 

If GW were prepared to break their word by squating non-Primaris completely, then they'd be so untrustworthy that they might release a ton of limited edition mini-marines and then render them useless a few months latter. They do that with late edition cycle codexes and campaign books so why not miniatures? They basically did that to me with Belisarius Cawl (was a powerful model you could throw into any army on release and is now basically only usable in Admech).

 

 

How are Chaos Marines, 30k Marines, Eldar, Necrons or T'au releases relevant to the concern about classic Marines? Nobody ever doubted those are still getting releases. It's always been about classic imperial Marines in 40k.

 

 

I just find it hard to be sympathetic to concerns that Classic marines are going to be relegated to getting the same level of support as Xenos races at a time when they're getting tons of incidental support anyway.

 

But I guess its mostly my fault for being baited into commenting on the same old off topic moaning.

 

Forge World haven't even limited themselves to 30k marines since the start of 8th ed:

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Red-Scorpions-Command-Collection-2017

 

But apparently those don't count either.

[Captain Idaho]

No, I don't count Death Guard, 30K Forge World resin and Chaos Marines as support from the main studio for Classic Marines. Bit of a silly point to make to be honest. That's like saying "Tyranids being released counts as Orks."

 

Not trying to turn this into a big argument but it's really not a relevant comparison.

 

Do I count expensive Tactical Marines that are niche collectors options as a new Classic Marines release? Not really. I don't think any other supporter of any other army would accept such a thing as support either.

 

***

 

The Marine range is as complete as the Chaos Marines range. Or Ork range. Both of which need new models.

 

Classic Marines can be reimagined. Look at the new Chaos Marines in Blackstone Fortress and Death Guard. New Classic Marines could have been built that are bulkier, superior stances and anomatically superior (instead of the wide leg stance).

 

Primaris didn't need to happen outside a cynical attempt to force folk to replace their entire army. Give me a £400 refund and I'll accept it as a consumer...

 

For now I'll step off the GW rug and put my money into carpets instead. I put money into their rug and the one I bought is working fine without need of replacement so I won't be being forced to buy one just because GW made it.

 

It's like i-phones. Apple updates older phones to utilise more power and reduce battery performance, produces a new expensive phone every year and expects us to buy. As a consumer I say no and go to another phone manufacturer.

 

I reserve my right to do so with Games Workshop also.

[Doghouse]

Now I have thought about it a bit more it's quite interesting to think that if Cawl had been putting these guys together for the ten thousand years then chances are he's recruited through out that time so you would have even more disparity between them.

 

The way I see it personally, which may or may not be accurate, is if you took a modern day army and then recruited for it travelling backwards in time every hundred years or so to pick up and train new recruits. You start off with with troops familiar with the technology but the further you go back in time recruiting the more mystical that technology begins to seem to the newer recruits. Imagine a modern day soldier having a conversation with say a roman centurion or finding Oliver Cromwell is his commander.

 

So a pre-heresy Astartes might be quite happy to sit polishing his armour and chatting with people like we saw with Gaviel Loken as he spoke with the Remembrancer where as a modern day Astartes may have executed her for interrupting his prayers to the machine spirit as he anointed it's casing with holy oils.

 

Personally speaking this has appealed to me a lot. I can see the earliest recruits, unless they have been mind scrubbed, waking to a society of nightmarish reality where the Imperial Truth has given way to the Imperial Cult. Schools and universities pulled down and replaced by the churches of fanatical devotees of a cult that the Emperor was opposed to. 

[Dracos]

That’s one of the things that appealed to me about Primaris in the first place. Knowing most would actually know how fudged up the Ecclesiarchy is. The tension between them and the Fundamentalist fighting arms like the Sisters and the Templars would be palpable. My head canon has only a few institutions knowing the Truth, and then only certain elements within those institutions ... the Inquisition and certain Knight Houses.

[Marshal Rohr]

Everything about that works except for the legions of marines being kept for 10,000 years in stasis. Too much of a stretch. They could've just had it be an old project Guilliman resurrects when he wakes up.

[Panzer]

Why would that be too much of a stretch?

[Sete]

Because you have a radical archmagus that does whatever he wants, but on this one matter he followed the rules and kept the dudes on ice for so long?

And yet it is implied he made marines from lost and traitor legions, going against the order from the same guy that ordered the project, and yet he needed his aproval to wake the Primaris up? Even at the cost of the Imperium? Ex beast arises? Nah mate. It's a stretch :P

 

I would have preferred the Imperium on the back foot, and then cawl introduced the Rubicon Primaris. Then "our" dudes would become SM+1, and go on about reconquering parts of the Imperium/fight back. Bringing Primaris into the fold creating tensions, and then going lol but your dudes now can be Primaris, but hey they forgot how to use their old equipment and their tactical squad composition :D

 

Hopefully wave 2 will allow us to build a proper Primaris chapter.