Different Marine Types: Insights from Phil Kelly interview

[Panzer]

His job was "Make Primaris". He made Primaris. Of all kinds. With loyalist geneseed, with traitor geneseed, with whatever he could think of. For 10k years until the guy who told him to do that was back to tell him "Stop making Primaris" and "Release the Primaris". That's very machine like and thus fitting for the AdMech I'd say.

Him being radical has nothing to do with him being diligent. You can be both perfectly fine. It just means he'd do jobs others wouldn't do and that he'd use means others wouldn't use to fulfill those jobs.

 

I don't feel it's a stretch, I feel it's very in line with how ridiculous and inhuman the AdMech is.

[Lemondish]

Not a fan of the lore they're discussing that suggests the first wave of primaris speak some type of different language, embrace some AdMech cultural values or traditions, etc.

 

They were taken from Crusade/30k era marines.

 

IMO its ridiculous and unneeded.

10,000 years of language deviation. They were from Terra and Mars originally, too, so culturally they'd be much different than their parent chapters. It makes a whole lot of sense

 

To me, it's actually a pretty compelling source of potential conflict and...more importantly...hilarity.

 

I also love how Cawl is so whacked out he vacillates between being a computer requiring input and direction and being an actual thinking being.

[Sete]

He also made deals with xenos, and supposedly created an AI. He does not follow rules, except when it fits the narrative. That's my interpretation of course.

[RandyB]

He also made deals with xenos, and supposedly created an AI. He does not follow rules, except when it fits the narrative. That's my interpretation of course.

He's the 30K/40K Tony Stark.

[Doghouse]

I don't think it's that much of a stretch, it more to do with the nature of the evolution of 40k lore and product release.

 

In some respects it's clearly a retcon from the outside looking in but in terms of looking at this from an in game perspective it's not really that hard to believe given the setting. The idea of a member of the Mechanicus dutifully carrying out a long standing order in a machine like fashion because someone forgot to hit the off switch isn't really that far fetched.

 

We know this has been shoe horned in but it's far from the first time this has happened, Razorbacks, Storm Eagles, Centurions, the list goes on as far as the old tried and tested GW approach of "oh we have this new product...but don't worry guys it was there in the lore along I promise!" it's just the nature of the beast as far as the game is concerned. I think we can all say we've see it before.

 

As far as explaining how it was done in secret? 40k is an utterly absurd beast when it comes to the lore, it's over the top, brutal and steeped in lashings of ignorance and superstition. As far as the setting is concerned it works because the lore is so labyrinthine in design, they have about thirty eight thousand years of fictional history to hide their secrets. Given the past releases all this is well within the grounds of what we have experienced before and no doubt will experience again. I've lost track of the number of times I've seen it over the last three decades.

 

To be fair I think they could have handled it better but it is what it is. This is the first time we've seen them release details of a possible way to upgrade traditional Astartes but they have  put an emphasis on the fact if you go through with this you die no matter what, it's only if they are strong enough to be brought back that you can become a Primaris. This in itself isn't really that different to the trials the undergo to be selected as children and I have read many times of potential recruits being selected even as they lay dying from the trials. This is just the next level of that and I can't see the Imperium at it's time of need wanting to risk valuable Astartes on the off chance they might survive the process.  

 

Calgar went through the process to bind the two sets of Astartes, the fact that he pushed himself beyond death to unite his brothers shows things are not all smiles and sunshine. This suggests to me there is a level of animosity and mistrust between elements of them. 

 

So yes this is MAJOR back peddling as far as the story goes and no this doesn't mean I am suddenly going to start liking Aggressors, Inceptors or Reivers but this is the first stage in a reworking Astartes and finding a middle ground where the traditional and Primaris Astartes can co-exist for now as products.

 

I think everyone one without except is entitled to their own thoughts, fears and hopes as far as this range goes but the lore is being adapted to meet those changes and I expect it will be some time before it settles. 

[Marshal Rohr]

I think its a stretch because of the time difference. Cawl transferring his consciousness thousands of times isn't what I have an issue with, its the idea that there were hundreds of thousands of space marines put on ice a few years after the heresy and then awakened ten thousand years later. The time difference between those two is four thousand years longer than the time between us right now and the Pyramids. I think it would've been better if the Cawl consciousnesses had pursued the project in a limited sense and Guilliman kicks it into mass production by allowing him to operate openly and allocating resources for it. I also think they should've done 'Upgraded Old Marines' as the first wave, then whole cloth primaris. I don't think they needed to have Primaris come out fighting ready because the time skip could've handwaved it nicely.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Yes, they're taken from 30k Marines, with 10 thousand years of linguistic drift. Take a look at how quickly languages have spread nowadays, how many regional dialects and types of slang have been created, and yeah, it makes sense that in 10,000 years the original Primaris speak a lot differently than modern Marines.

 

30k recruitment stock, not 30k marines embedded in 30k legion cultures.

 

So, nothing that actually makes any difference whatsoever to my point, given the 30k recruitment stock would still speak 30k gothic, rather than 40k gothic, regardless of whether they've been "embedded in 30k legion cultures" or not? They're still 12-14 year old kids that speak the language of their time, with all that comes with it, rather than what the language has changed to in 40k.

[Subtleknife]

I think its a stretch because of the time difference. Cawl transferring his consciousness thousands of times isn't what I have an issue with, its the idea that there were hundreds of thousands of space marines put on ice a few years after the heresy and then awakened ten thousand years later. The time difference between those two is four thousand years longer than the time between us right now and the Pyramids. I think it would've been better if the Cawl consciousnesses had pursued the project in a limited sense and Guilliman kicks it into mass production by allowing him to operate openly and allocating resources for it. I also think they should've done 'Upgraded Old Marines' as the first wave, then whole cloth primaris. I don't think they needed to have Primaris come out fighting ready because the time skip could've handwaved it nicely.

They werent constantly on ice though. Of honour and iron states that the recruits were de-iced a fair few times to train and imrove his project. It not like he just put them in a freezer and left them there he was constantly tinkering away.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

I think its a stretch because of the time difference. Cawl transferring his consciousness thousands of times isn't what I have an issue with, its the idea that there were hundreds of thousands of space marines put on ice a few years after the heresy and then awakened ten thousand years later. The time difference between those two is four thousand years longer than the time between us right now and the Pyramids. I think it would've been better if the Cawl consciousnesses had pursued the project in a limited sense and Guilliman kicks it into mass production by allowing him to operate openly and allocating resources for it. I also think they should've done 'Upgraded Old Marines' as the first wave, then whole cloth primaris. I don't think they needed to have Primaris come out fighting ready because the time skip could've handwaved it nicely.

They werent constantly on ice though. Of honour and iron states that the recruits were de-iced a fair few times to train and imrove his project. It not like he just put them in a freezer and left them there he was constantly tinkering away.

 

 

 

It is still a very long time. It used be insane that some chapters had ships or pieces of armor from the Heresy, and those things were treated exactly like we treat Egyptian Old Kingdom artifacts. It would make Cawl more sinister to be some Black Mirror-esque technological monster who has literally manipulated his consciousness beyond the bounds of time in an attempt to achieve something like what the emperor did in creating the original marines, and it took him ten thousand years to just kind of get close. 

 

I just like drama, realism, and scale. Thats my main critique with Primaris lore. They feel small. They make the universe small.

[RolandTHTG]

Forgive me if i'm wrong, as I haven't read the stuff too closely, but weren't the primaris slowly accumulated over time?

Yes, a bunch are from heresy/scouring, but each time he popped them out for testing and work, he added a new batch of recruits before they went back in the freezer.

So you've got maybe 20-40k that remember heresy/scouring, then the remaining 60-80k got added each time he felt he could skim off some recruits (each founding, for instance.)

You've got a 100k, but only because he's got 10,000 years of hoarding before the big G tells him to empty the attic.

That mechanicus battle cant that some have mentioned, that might just be because they don't even share a common language with the chapter, so everyone uses the language their trainers taught them. 

[Helias_Tancred]

 

Not a fan of the lore they're discussing that suggests the first wave of primaris speak some type of different language, embrace some AdMech cultural values or traditions, etc.

 

They were taken from Crusade/30k era marines.

 

IMO its ridiculous and unneeded.

 

Uhm ... you wouldn't understand a word of the english that was spoken a few hundred years a go. A few thousand years ago english didn't even exist. We're talking about Marines that come from ten.thousand.years. in the past. Of course they'd be hard to understand lol

 

 

This is a fictional fantasy gothic sci-fi setting, not real history.

 

I couldn't give a crap about making sure each and every tiny facet lines up perfectly with examples of real human history, especially when its net result is ... dumb and not good for the story, army faction, etc. Not to mention its a setting with an incredibly greater proliferation of advanced technology, that could defy or reverse such historical human trends?

 

But overall there's no need for this in the current setting. None.

[Panzer]

 

 

Not a fan of the lore they're discussing that suggests the first wave of primaris speak some type of different language, embrace some AdMech cultural values or traditions, etc.

 

They were taken from Crusade/30k era marines.

 

IMO its ridiculous and unneeded.

 

 

Uhm ... you wouldn't understand a word of the english that was spoken a few hundred years a go. A few thousand years ago english didn't even exist. We're talking about Marines that come from ten.thousand.years. in the past. Of course they'd be hard to understand lol

 

This is a fictional fantasy gothic sci-fi setting, not real history.

 

I couldn't give a crap about making sure each and every tiny facet lines up perfectly with examples of real human history, especially when its net result is ... dumb and not good for the story, army faction, etc. Not to mention its a setting with an incredibly greater proliferation of advanced technology, that could defy or reverse such historical human trends?

 

But overall there's no need for this in the current setting. None.

Yeah well that's just like your opinion, you know. One I definitely don't share.

[Xisor]

But overall there's no need for this in the current setting. None.

If you're going to tug at that thread:

- there's no need for the current setting

- there's no need for the setting, at all

- there's no need for your opinion on the matter, nor of your opinion on other's opinions

- there's no need for this comment

- there's no need for any sort of reflection on anything, at all

- there's no need for you to exist

 

If you'd like to stand by that reasoning, it seems to have a few inescapable conclusions.

 

But there's no need for that.

 

---

 

For my part, I enjoy fiction. I doubly enjoy fiction that casts illumination on the real world, both bits I know and bits I don't.

 

McNeill's work, for example, tends to stick out as a bit egregious for me because he neglects plausible passage of time.

 

By the end of his Sigmar books, the Empire was fully formed.

 

By the end of Angel Exterminatus, Fulgrim's story was fully formed. Basically done. Pillage Terra, stab Guilliman then disappear for ten thousand years.

 

In both of those, the narrative implication is that "not much happens" after the end of the story. ("They all lived happily ever after" as a notion rings surprisingly false in Warhammer stories about anything other than Orks and Orcs and Grots and Goblins. And even the more successful smaller ones - like Skarsnik - don't seem to have too happy and stress-free of a life!)

 

It doesn't ring true to life at all - it instead gives the impression that as soon as you stop looking at the page, the story is absolutely done and finished. There's little hint of 'things to come' or 'stories untold'...no evoking of a bigger, wider living universe that persists even when you don't look at it. (Life goes on.)

 

Instead, the drive to tie-off things into seemingly neat packages (e.g. The Iron Warriors being populated largely by people who we already know from future stories; Captain Japan being composed almost 100% in his entirtly of known-to-us-today Japanese stereotypes, motifs or allusions) makes the work very readable, but also very frustrating for me... Very underwhelming.

 

Which is annoying *because I still enjoy the writing* and the stories! But it's all tied up in such a way that some of that enjoyment is perpetually undermined.

 

But I imagine that's what you mean about the linguistics of Primaris being awkward. You've an active disinterest in language, perhaps, and anything that's not the thing you specifically enjoy is superfluous? Or doesn't fit the current norms of storytelling are 'not needed'.

 

Something like that.

 

Which is preference. But very subjective.

 

And again: opinions on anything are not needed.

 

Especially Space Marine fiction, which is also not needed.

[Ishagu]

I think Cawl hoarding the Primaris is perfectly fine.

They could be an emergency measure to be activated at a very specific time:

 

-Upon Guilliman's orders

-Upon a direct attack on Terra and Mars when defeat seems inevitable

-Upon some great Heresy of various descriptions

 

There were around 250k of them I believe? Now they make up most of the Imperium Astartes and the numbers of Marines in service are far greater than prior to the fall of Cadia. Chapters were re-built but hundreds more were forged (There are 10+ new chapters operating in central Ultramar alone).

 

Was it needed? You could argue the new setting changes weren't needed but that's not true. There was a pretty bad case of fatigue and whether you're on board with the new lore or not, people certainly aren't bored!

[Xisor]

Now they make up most of the Imperium Astartes and the numbers of Marines in service are far greater than prior to the fall of Cadia.

Thpse are two pretty strong statements - where is each substantiated?

 

Incidentally, they agree with my expectations, but I don't recall it being specifically or implicitly spelled out.

[Robbienw]

There is no evidence to suggest they are in the majority compared to classic marines. I find it very unlikely that they are given they are still relatively new and traditional

Chapters would still need to make a lot to use the classic equipment in meaningful quantities.

 

For example you well known chapters or units with relatively few of them. The ultras 2nd company for example is only 30% Primaris. The novamarines in DI2 had only a few dozen Primaris. Even the crimson fists who were devastated only got 500.

 

As to the total number released by cawl, I can’t remember what was said in dark imperium now, but wasn’t it closer to 100k?

[Kelborn]

I rather see it that it took Cawl 10k years to conclude the Primaris project in its entirety.

 

There are chapters like the Sons of Antaeus or entire Foundings basing on genetical improvements. In my head canon, these were part of Cawl's experiments. A way to test certain initiatives. Even if their founding was ordered by the High Lords, I still imagine Cawl to somehow be involve be it directly or a loyal adept.

[Panzer]

There is no evidence to suggest they are in the majority compared to classic marines. I find it very unlikely that they are given they are still relatively new and traditional

Chapters would still need to make a lot to use the classic equipment in meaningful quantities.

For example you well known chapters or units with relatively few of them. The ultras 2nd company for example is only 30% Primaris. The novamarines in DI2 had only a few dozen Primaris. Even the crimson fists who were devastated only got 500.

As to the total number released by cawl, I can’t remember what was said in dark imperium now, but wasn’t it closer to 100k?

To be fair 100k would still be about 100 primaris chapters. A bit less if you subtract the few that found their way into existing chapters. So maybe 80 chapters. That's still a LOT. Marines aren't nearly as numerous as Guardsmen. And this isn't even counting all the newly created Primaris.

So I wouldn't be too surprised about Primaris being more than just a small percentage of all Marines on a galactic scale.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

Now they make up most of the Imperium Astartes and the numbers of Marines in service are far greater than prior to the fall of Cadia.

Thpse are two pretty strong statements - where is each substantiated?

 

Incidentally, they agree with my expectations, but I don't recall it being specifically or implicitly spelled out.

Nonono. The commonly touted number was 1,000 Chapters and each is approximately 1,000 Marines strong, putting us at one million Marines, roughly, in the Imperium. In order for 250,000 Primaris to become the majority if extent Space Marines, that 1,000,000 count would have had to suffered over 75% killed in action, not counting the normal rate of replacement. Have 800,000 Space Marines died in the two centuries or so since Cadia fell? And if they have - making the now approximately 300,000 Primaris the majority - the total tally of Space Marines has *dropped* to about 500,000 (300K Primaris + ~200K regular). Both statements cannot be true unless Cawl had literally a million Primaris waiting to be thawed.

[Ishagu]

There's more than 1000 Chapters now. Just as there are more than 10 companies per chapter...

But also remember, the Primaris are faster to produce and without any high mutation rates.

 

The codex does indeed say that there are 1000 thousand chapters with a thousand battle brothers but I don't feel this is literal anymore. It's just a guide now, no longer scripture to be followed to the letter.

[Brother Casman]

Codex: Space Marines says that there are still ten companies of batte-brothers. Guilliman's updated guidelines allow for ten squads of ten warriors or twenty squads of five warriors. Further, it goes on to say that Battle Companies can be reinforced with auxiliary squads from the Reserve Companies. It looks like we still have Chapters of ~1000 Space Marines, per the codex. It's laid out on page 12 of the book.

 

Even the heraldry section gives just ten companies.

 

Where are you getting more than ten companies from, Ishagu?

[PeteySödes]

It's just a guide now, no longer scripture to be followed to the letter.

Oh snap, someones dad’s gonna get the belt out...

[~Drakzilla~]

There's more than 1000 Chapters now. Just as there are more than 10 companies per chapter...

But also remember, the Primaris are faster to produce and without any high mutation rates.

 

The codex does indeed say that there are 1000 thousand chapters with a thousand battle brothers but I don't feel this is literal anymore. It's just a guide now, no longer scripture to be followed to the letter.

 

Okay but even if Primaris marines can be produced faster, they still started at 250,000 to the classic marines' 1,000,000. Now, maybe the current state of the galaxy forced heavy losses on the old marines...but the Primaris marines would have had to at least triple in number in the span of 200 years to even begin to outnumber the classic marines. And that's all while they're taking combat losses! I just don't see it.

 

Beside the point, I really hate the idea that it's easier to make a Primaris marine than a standard marine. I can accept Primaris as a concept, but it makes no sense that implanting three extra organs in an already dangerous process is easier than leaving them out. Being able to crank them out faster is just a weird disconnect from them being better than the old marines in every way.

[Dracos]

I think it's more like the Mechanicus has been holding out on the Astartes, and its easier because of better technology. Sort of the difference between building a car with hand tools or power tools ( or robotics if we take that another step) 

[Panzer]

I haven't even seen it mentioned anywhere outside of forums that Primaris are supposed to be made easier and faster. Less mutations yes, but mostly due cleansed/resetted geneseed which should be just as usuable to create classic Marines.