Different Marine Types: Insights from Phil Kelly interview

[Xisor]

There's more than 1000 Chapters now. Just as there are more than 10 companies per chapter...

But also remember, the Primaris are faster to produce and without any high mutation rates.

The codex does indeed say that there are 1000 thousand chapters with a thousand battle brothers but I don't feel this is literal anymore. It's just a guide now, no longer scripture to be followed to the letter.

So neither claim is textually supported?

 

Humbug.

 

---

 

Think of it in terms of turnover.

 

Whats the lifespan of any given Marine?

What's the rate of successful creation (e.g. leaving the Scout Company whole?)

 

If the Primaris method improves the latter, and as long as a certain number of Chapters adopt it in the right proportion (even 60:40 Old:Primaris would work if the Primaris method is superior, and Primaris marginally more survivable).

 

Then it's simply a matter of time before Primaris outnumber Old.

 

But I can't figure out the calculation/variables offhand.

 

But it's fun to speculate upon.

 

In y=mx+c terms, the initial starting number released by Cawl is C, which is only relevant in the immediate short term if less than say 500,000.

 

And the 200 years of Indomitus+ isn't exactly "short term".

 

EDIT: @sfPanzer - a lot of my view stems from Devastation of Baal, where it seemed to not only be *faster* but more reliable with "worse" materials. Worse - in context of the old process - meaning a wider range of candidates than the earlier process could accommodate.

[Robbienw]

Primaris geneseed is ‘new’ so it’s not yet going to be having the same failure or mutation rate as some chapters normal geneseed which has been in use for 10k years. Yet. Remember though, not all chapters have problems with their classic geneseed, many are very stable.

 

Also, where is the evidence to support the claim that Primaris are faster to produce? I find this unlikely given they go through the same steps as normal marines plus 3 additional steps. Surely it would take a chapter the same time or very slightly longer to make one based on this. Unless they are counting the scout phase that normal marines have and not being a full made marine until that is over, whereas Primaris are trained in simulations and don’t go through the scout phase?

 

And if they were faster to produce, then you can just apply the new techniques that enable faster implantation to classic marine production and make them even quicker as well.

[FlamingDeth]

I don't see any issue with the new stuff outnumbering the old stuff. That's a full lifetime we're talking about here. How many WWII planes are still in active military service these days? How many soldiers that stormed Normandy are still on the front line? Just because GW has never really understood how time works before doesn't mean that a full replacement of military assets in a century is terribly unrealistic.

[Sete]

If you are ok with ignoring the Imperium background, where a using a Horus Heresy armour mark is an honor, and technological progression is seen as heresy, sure it's fine.

[Robbienw]

Lol, applying real world examples to 40k does not work.

 

Also, Primaris don’t do everything classics do so replacing them totally with limited Primaris stuff would be stupid, because you would lose key equipment without an equivalent.

 

And as GW has said, they aren’t a replacement, they are an addition.

[Marshal Rohr]

Rebuilding a chapter to full strength in less than a century isn’t impossible. The ultramarines went from unification era legion sizes to 250,000 in a century and a half WITH combat losses during the great crusade. The argument that Primaris outnumber normal marines was the issue that brought that up and it was immediately proven to be something Ishagu just made up

[Ishagu]

How did I make it up? Lol

 

100+ years after the great rift. The Primaris are the majority in the Ultras chapter (and let's be fair, the Ultras are the chapter that typically suffers the least casualties) so it's logical the pattern would repeat. The same is certainly true for the BA and all of their successors.

[Robbienw]

You have made it up because you just say something that is your personal view with no evidence to back it up.  Don't be surprised when people dismiss it as nonsense :lol:

 

You just said there the Primaris are in the majority in the Ultramarines, tell us where you get that from.

 

As for the BA, given what is stated in their codex about their large numbers of scouts, your assertion is highly likely to be false.

[Ishagu]

Lol why have I made that up. Prior to Primaris being introduced into the setting and prior to the plague wars the chapter was almost at half strength. It was brought back up to full with Primaris, and then further replenished this way.

 

The BA are down to about 50 non Primaris Astartes or less?

[Kriegsmacht]

It's confirmed they're only being replenished with Primaris Marines? They stopped creating regular marines in these Chapters?

[Ishagu]

In the BA and successors? No, they can still make the old type but they are fully re-enforces with Primaris so a Primaris would need to die and be replaced by the old type and why would that happen?

[Kriegsmacht]

Was just wondering if that's what is happening lore-wise. That they're just going to gradually replace the Chapters with Primaris Marines as the old ones die out. When I read your post before mine it came across that way is all.

[Ishagu]

No, I don't think something like that will ever be outright said, and I don't feel it would be the case in all instances.

[Dracos]

It's confirmed they're only being replenished with Primaris Marines? They stopped creating regular marines in these Chapters?

 

I was happily buying Primaris weren't replacing Old Marines . . . then PriMarneus happened 

 

 

Whether any of us like it or not, the Rubicon has been crossed and if not now it's just a matter of when not if.

[Panzer]

The BA are down to about 50 non Primaris Astartes or less?

 

lol no. They produce Scouts parallel to Primaris currently to quickly fill up their ranks again and there's no word of them stopping to produce classic Marines.

[Lord_Caerolion]

In the BA and successors? No, they can still make the old type but they are fully re-enforces with Primaris so a Primaris would need to die and be replaced by the old type and why would that happen?

 

Easy, because if the Imperium is known for, and utterly loves, one thing above all others, it's the veneration of the past to a literally unhealthy extent. Choose between a Primaris and an OldMarine to replace Brother Bob? Well, the Primaris is good and all, but the OldMarine can wear this suit of MkIII armour, that marched alongside the Primarch Himself in the defense of Terra!

[Robbienw]

Lol why have I made that up. Prior to Primaris being introduced into the setting and prior to the plague wars the chapter was almost at half strength. It was brought back up to full with Primaris, and then further replenished this way.

 

The BA are down to about 50 non Primaris Astartes or less?

And once again claims without explaining where they come from.

 

BA weren’t down to 50 marines, the only time that has been said to happen to them was after the space hulk assault disaster described in the space hulk game fluff, which left 50 survivors.

 

Devastation of Baal said they were down to about 300 marines after the tyranid assault, but there is nothing saying the numbers were fully made up by Primaris. They are making both types in parallel as is stated in their codex, and currently have a large number of Scouts.

 

I think you are getting confused with numbers at this point, and need to recheck where you got these things from.

[SyNidus]

I'm a little lost - is there actual canon of Cawl using geneseed from traitor legions?

If that were true, i might actually be able to build a Night Lords primaris army...

[Captain Idaho]

It's worth pointing out that Phill Kelly implied heavily that the 3rd wave route for Marines could include the transition of Classic to Primaris, which (despite being inconsistent in the lore) reflects the view of many Marines.

[Panzer]

I'm a little lost - is there actual canon of Cawl using geneseed from traitor legions?

 

If that were true, i might actually be able to build a Night Lords primaris army...

 

He asked Guilliman if he's allowed to and wasn't very happy with a no and it's heavily implied by some of the official Primaris chapters like the Sons of the Phoenix for example.

[Jacques Corbin]

Still no Primaris Techmarines. Anybody else think that is strange? Sure, vehicle crewman/gunner sticking out of a hatch, stick a machina opus shoulder pad on him, and he is good, right?

 

But who repairs vehicles now? A dreadnought or tank breaks down, and you have to call in a techpriest. A mortal human techpriest. You want more bolter rounds? Your armor needs repair? Need some bionics? Go to a forge world, and no, we will no longer be training your veterans in our ways. It is a pact with Mars, or enjoy fighting with your bare hands.

 

Think about it! I mean, what exactly is the lore on a Primaris Chaplain? A standard Chaplain maintains traditions and sees to the mental and spiritual health of his brothers. So this new guy shows up, either as a Chaplain, or is eventually promoted to Chaplain, but how? The Primaris Chaplain who just shows up, who trained him in the Chapter's traditions? Or the Primaris who gets promoted, you are telling me that all is well in the Reclusiam?!

[Doghouse]

I think the Techmarine is more of a model that is in the pipeline but not out yet. I think in a few years if they lack one or a substitute in the range then questions will be asked.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s hard to say why there aren’t any Primaris Tech Marines but we don’t have anything solid to say exactly why.

[Felix Antipodes]

I don't understand why scouts are now considered a thing of the past. Sure, the initial wave of Primaris by-passed this role, as they were trained before going into stasis and emerged fully formed. Second wave Primaris, those raised by the Chapters themselves, would still be put through the same indoctrination and training process they used for Astartes, to ensure their adoption of Chapter doctrine and ritual as well as reducing (as far as possible) the distrust and disconnect that the first wave engendered.

 

As for creating Primaris being a faster process that creating Astartes, I can't see it. IAW the latest C:SM it is basically the same process (and time scale) for both. The only advantage I see for Primaris is, possibly, a higher success rate due to purer geneseed.

[Panzer]

Still no Primaris Techmarines. Anybody else think that is strange? Sure, vehicle crewman/gunner sticking out of a hatch, stick a machina opus shoulder pad on him, and he is good, right?

But who repairs vehicles now? A dreadnought or tank breaks down, and you have to call in a techpriest. A mortal human techpriest. You want more bolter rounds? Your armor needs repair? Need some bionics? Go to a forge world, and no, we will no longer be training your veterans in our ways. It is a pact with Mars, or enjoy fighting with your bare hands.

Think about it! I mean, what exactly is the lore on a Primaris Chaplain? A standard Chaplain maintains traditions and sees to the mental and spiritual health of his brothers. So this new guy shows up, either as a Chaplain, or is eventually promoted to Chaplain, but how? The Primaris Chaplain who just shows up, who trained him in the Chapter's traditions? Or the Primaris who gets promoted, you are telling me that all is well in the Reclusiam?!

Just because there is no separate Techmarine unit yet it doesn't mean there aren't any Techmarines in the chapter. The Repulsor gunner is a clear indication that they exist. For now they just do their thing offscreen.

 

Only the initial batch of Primaris that Cawl released is so detached from the current Marines. Every Primaris produced by the chapters themselves later on is the exact same as a regular Marine just physically more capable, so no reason why they couldn't be Chaplains as well.

 

I don't understand why scouts are now considered a thing of the past. Sure, the initial wave of Primaris by-passed this role, as they were trained before going into stasis and emerged fully formed. Second wave Primaris, those raised by the Chapters themselves, would still be put through the same indoctrination and training process they used for Astartes, to ensure their adoption of Chapter doctrine and ritual as well as reducing (as far as possible) the distrust and disconnect that the first wave engendered.

 

How are they considered a thing of the past? Chapters still produce regular Marines so Scouts are still very much a thing.

About Primaris, we don't know whether they go through the whole Scout phase. Might as well they are more like Space Wolves who put their new guys into regular power armour from the get go and reserve Scout tasks to the more experienced guys (like Reivers).

We are going to have to wait until GW gives us something official on that but I'd say it's likely since they are in the middle of the process of updating the model range and keep using Scouts would be counter productive to that.