Different Marine Types: Insights from Phil Kelly interview

[SillyDreadnought]

For the love of the Imperium, someone please pull out one of their 2nd edition Marine Codex.  The fluff some are so distraught over was cartoonish compared to today material. It was shallow, goofy, and empty compared to what we have now. There was somuch unfilled space that handfuls of fanfic  abd DIY was washs away when the official stories for Chapters not in t he Big4 were released. It was fun though. 

 

Relax, enjoy the materials we have and show patience with the process and remember to have fun ... it's a game with make believe stories and army men

 

Okay, which Marine codex? Ultramarines, Space Wolves, or Angels of Death?

 

And 2nd edition was the time when GW shifted from the weird and wonderful tone of Rogue Trader to the "grimdark" tone of 40k we enjoy today, and spent considerable page space to flesh the setting out, avoiding the unfilled space by outright filling it in. Case in point, elements such as the Primarch project, the entire implantation process for Space Marines, the Cursed Founding, the Dark Founding, the Horus Heresy, the Age of Strife, Power Armour, Bolters, the High Lords of Terra, the Grey Knights, Robute Gulliman's early life and details on Ultramar in the 41st millenium are all within the first 16 ( pages 6 to 16 to be precise ) pages of Codex: Ultramarines and are, aside from details and embellishment brought upon by the passage of time, virtually unchanged from today's lore.

 

In fact, several entire pages are reused verbatim in the 5th edition Space Marine codex.

 

So I think you're confusing Rogue Trader, with it's far more satirical tone, with what 2nd edition actually was.

 

With regards to Primaris, a direct comparison to any 2nd edition codex is more apt than you realise. In the first 16 pages of Codex Ultramarines we have the entire setting laid out for us, the general tone of the setting laid out, and then on the creation of Space Marines, the Great Crusade, the Horus Heresy, the Second Founding ( with in-line boxes for details on that, and other Foundings ) and so on. On pages 18 and 19, we have the Chapter organisation which has remained virtually unchanged since then at it's core until only recently, with the additional stipulation of 20 squads of 5 soldiers ( or any combination therein between the old and new ). 

 

As an aside, we also have pages 22 and 23 which cover a variety of unique honours and army badges, and the next few pages go on to describe the heraldry of Space Marines on Terminator squads and characters. This goes on for several more pages in Codex: Ultramarines, up to page 49 when the army list begins. This is out of a book with 96 pages total.

 

So if we go by pure comparison of content, 2nd edition was far more well thought out in it's world building and explanation of Space Marines and how they are organised. In total page count alone, 2nd edition puts more effort into selling you on what a Space Marine is than 8th edition does for Primaris in the 8th edition rulebook and 8th edition codex Space Marines combined.

 

So, relaxing and enjoying the materials we have isn't a really good argument given that we have categorically less material on Primaris Marines, both in page count and detail, than we had before for Space Marines in books that were published in the early 90's. And this is with 3 writers, as opposed to the half dozen or more who work in GW's design studio today.

[Ishagu]

How do we have less material? There are multiple novels available right now focused on Primaris. This was not the case for Marines at the start of 2nd edition.

[SillyDreadnought]

How do we have less material? There are multiple novels available right now focused on Primaris. This was not the case for Marines at the start of 2nd edition.

 

The comparison was codexes. So I went with codexes. If you want to go with novels, sure, I'll give you that. We have around 10-ish novels focused on Primaris. As opposed to the 40+ on normal Marines spanning multiple editions and that's disregarding the Heresy series, which on it's own spans over 50 books devoted solely to Space Marines and their role in the setting's mythological civil war that frames the entire setting.

 

So either we compare like with like ( e.g, page count and density of material devoted to a given subject in the Codexes ) or we start going off on silly tangents and comparing apples to oranges. I went with the former. Why are you going with the latter.

 

not that the novels actually address the issues that Leif Bearclaw brings up in his posts. You'd think that would be an excellent place to settle the matter.

[Ishagu]

No one can ever say that regular Astartes don't have more material. I just think it's silly to even compare the lore depth of something which has existed for less than two years with something which has been around for 20+

[Nova_Dew]

1) there are Primaris vets, but only codex marines can have them and it's a stratigum because GW :/ .

2) initiates could be just given full armour and be sent off to develop in the field like in the Templar's but with full armour, or not even allowed to fight until fully developed like in 30K .

3) neophytes are commonly scouts, but the scout role does not have to be done by initiates... SW/DA for instance use more elite troops in that role (or did, i don't know if the DA fluff on this changed) Reiver's are scouts but not neophytes just like the Reconnaissance sqaud from 30K in theme .

4) There used to be fluff how SM's used to be hypno-indoctrinated with High Gothic, (and every member of the IG too) so they could understand other units even in the 40th Millennium, but Cawl is a 30K guy so might have used that version of High Gothic instead because it creates conflict that can drive a story .

5) as for no techmarines, it kinda makes sense if Mars wants more power and it's just a power play, could we see another Mars rebellion? if it's not i'm betting on a future release for them .

6) Primaris has been in the planning for 2+ years I think Phil Kelly says in the pod cast the exact time

[Ishagu]

I'm sure that we'll have Primaris vets models soon(rules exist for them via a formation), and Techmarines.

 

I don't think we'll have Scouts. I think Primaris are more like the Legions and a battle brother is put straight into full Power Armour.

[SillyDreadnought]

No one can ever say that regular Astartes don't have more material. I just think it's silly to even compare the lore depth of something which has existed for less than two years with something which has been around for 20+

 

Except, I wasn't comparing depth. You have eyes, you can see what I was addressing specifically ( the tone of 2nd edition, which Dracos grossly misrepresented ), and how I decided to bring it back onto the topic of Primaris marines via comparison to the breadth of content. Not depth of content. Breadth. That I have to explain this to you Ishagu is perplexing considering you're otherwise a very astute person in other threads. Bringing up "oh but the novels" strikes me as trying to deflect my point.

 

 

In one 2nd edition codex we have more clear effort and desire to flesh out what a Space Marine is than we do in 8th edition with Primaris and exclusively Primaris, not material that could be interchanged with Space Marines as a whole. That is entirely undeniable. So when one is asked to "sit back and enjoy what we have", it's very silly to say that with conviction when we have outlying lore issues that are preventing several people ( such as Leif, whom I agree with wholeheartedly on the lack of detail Primaris have ) from fully enjoying anything Primaris related.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

It's a side attack on your point to an extent, but the fact that the fluff on marines greatly improved in both depth and volume in SECOND edition from RT shows that it takes time to build upon these things. By modern comparison we aren't at Second Edition Primaris, we're still in RT. 

 

[SillyDreadnought]

Dracos mentioned 2nd edition. I used 2nd edition as a comparison. 2nd edition's lore is not, as he described it, "shallow and goofy". That would be Rogue Trader, as 2nd was the direct shift towards the more serious tone we've had until now.

And that's entirely leaving out GW's accelerated rate of pushing out material. In a year since Dark Imperium's launch, we've had almost the complete roster of Codexes come out, with brand new lore, and brand new armies. GW is entirely capable of addressing the questions raised around Primaris in a timely manner but they refuse to, likely to tie the answers to these questions to new model kits.

I have no doubt we'll see Primaris Veterans, Primaris Techmarines and more Primaris units. They, quite rightly, want us to buy more model kits, not a new rules update and that's fine. But they can just as easily address the questions raised now. They could've gone into depth with Vigilus Defiant as to how Ultima Founding Chapters function, or the Indomitus Crusade itself. The lack of detail is there and frustration over that lack is as valid as blind faith in Primaris.

[Ishagu]

No they can't. Gw have a very controlled release schedule and are no longer pushing rules or lore without models.

 

They won't go into details about units until the kits are released or about to be.

[Brother Lunkhead]

I'm sure that we'll have Primaris vets models soon(rules exist for them via a formation), and Techmarines.

 

I don't think we'll have Scouts. I think Primaris are more like the Legions and a battle brother is put straight into full Power Armour.

 

Perhaps Scout/Sniper units?...… Reivers would fit that slot quite nicely...…. Let's give those Reivers some sniper rifles

[Dracos]

Sillydreadnought ... wonderful summary of the tone of the 2nd edition codeci and while I still view them as step brothers to RT days you are right that they filled in much ... all of which applies to Primaris Marines also. Your right Primaris has much to be filled in as far as the Codex goes with units and such but we have to accept that's not going to happen until they are ready to release the models. I'm converting Reivers (which currently I'm not impressed with) into Scouts with real possibility if a Primaris Codex is ever released they could be a total waste of time. I'll live with that in hopes of the good times to come ... and at my age I'm hoping sooner than later.

 

I was intending to refer to the novels as the fluff we are getting now that was sporadic comparatively in the old days and honestly as much as they get ripped I prefer the more recent authors works. That said all that work is built on the shoulders of work down 25 years ago. The same is to be said of the Primaris. Everything they represent is built upon those old marines. I just suggest we give them more than a year and a half to fill out before really comparing them to a line that's been built over almost three decades,

[Rik Lightstar]

Also, to be fair, the second edition Space Marine Codexes only covered what we're now calling "Old Marines" this codex has to cover ALL of the previously established "Old Marine" stuff and then get the Primaris bits in too.

 

Once we get a Codex Primaris, which is pretty clearly on the cards based on how they're happy to split factions now,then we can judge it better.

 

By the way, you can play all the first company Primaris you like, the just have identical stats to the others.

 

Rik

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Hogwash. To be a veteran gives you higher Leadership, and either more attacks or better skills. Sternguard, Vanguard, and Terminators all have more attacks and Ld than Tacticals, Assaults, and Devaststors. Chosen have more attacks and Ld than CSM, Raptors, or Havocs. Saying "this Intercessor is a vet, but he's the same statwise as this noob over here" flies in the face of twenty years of army design.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I think... And I may be wrong. He was making a joke?

[Ishagu]

There is a formation to give them those very bonuses.

 

Not that they are particularly useful. If Primaris get a veteran unit it should be a fast moving CC squad.

[Rik Lightstar]

Hogwash. To be a veteran gives you higher Leadership, and either more attacks or better skills. Sternguard, Vanguard, and Terminators all have more attacks and Ld than Tacticals, Assaults, and Devaststors. Chosen have more attacks and Ld than CSM, Raptors, or Havocs. Saying "this Intercessor is a vet, but he's the same statwise as this noob over here" flies in the face of twenty years of army design.

Something being different doesn't make it impossible.

 

There haven't been Primaris for anything prior to 18 months ago, but here they are.

 

Previously not all Sergeants were Veterans as far as stats go, now they all are.

 

We used to have 3 levels of Marine HQ way back when, then they dropped the lowest level, the Lieutenant equivalent and kept Captain and Chapter Master as distinct stat lines. Now the Lieutenant is back and the Chapter Master is a Captain with better re-rolls.

 

You could previously upgrade every Sergeant to an Apothecary. Not anymore.

 

There are a lot of examples just within the Space Marine range of recent and similar drastic departures from relatively recent iterations.

 

Also, maybe the difference for a Primaris Veteran just isn't enough to be reflected in a D6 system.

 

Rik

[Dracos]

^This^

[Captain Idaho]

Tactical Marines are veterans of the Chapter from the Assault and Devastator squads. Personally I never approved of that background elaboration but it is what it is.

 

Fighting for a couple hundred years just makes you a Tactical Marine. The Primaris have been active for about a century so even the most experienced shouldn't be veterans any more than Tactical Marines should be.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Tactical Marines are veterans of the Chapter from the Assault and Devastator squads. Personally I never approved of that background elaboration but it is what it is.

 

Fighting for a couple hundred years just makes you a Tactical Marine. The Primaris have been active for about a century so even the most experienced shouldn't be veterans any more than Tactical Marines should be.

I think you may have overplayed the time involved there. At worst it would probably only take a couple of decades to go from newbie Devastator to Tac Marine (though I agree that particularly piece of background is pretty dumb and should never have been added). It seems competitively rare for most Marines to see their third century of service, so if it took centuries to become a Tactical, Tacs couldn't be the mainstay of a Chapter, as most Marines wouldn't live long enough to reach that 'rank'. Plus we do have Primaris Lieutenants and Captains, so that explanation for a lack of vets doesn't hold up imo.

[Ishagu]

Yeah that's really poor lore. Also why would you train to specialise in something only to then cast it aside? Makes little sense.

 

I'm hoping it's completely scrapped for the Primaris.

[Sloeberjong]

I think the idea of veteran marines is silly anyway. They already are the elite of the elite and there's only so much eliteness one can have. I get that it is there to differentiate different units on the table so you can have Elite choices and such instead of Troops or Fast Attack, but fluffwise it makes very little sense. I'd prefer that all marines have "veteran" stats since they all have a boatload of combat experience as scouts before becoming fully fledged marines. They all have the same physigue and combat training so it really doesn't make much sense that there are veterans who have more attacks. For leadership goes the same, they're all psycho indoctrinated and are all used to being in combat and around violence and death, being in combat for 2 years or 100 doesn't really make much of a difference.

 

It would make the list somewhat bland though, so I get why veteran units are there, but for fluff justification it's rather meh.

[Captain Idaho]

It does appear (having just looked at my Codex Space Marines very quickly) that they dropped the silly Devastator-Assault-Tactical progression for Marines. Thank goodness.

 

***

 

One thing I'd like and think it squares a hole nicely... Primaris in non-Primaris Chapters become the veterans. It makes sense for the psychology of Space Marines.

 

You become a Marine then as you get older you earn the right to become Primaris. Phill Kelly hinted at the idea in the podcast which I liked.

 

Sure the Rubicon Primaris is odds on to kill a Marine but maybe that fluff is changed (shock, horror) and evolves?

 

Marines earn the right and some make the personal choice to risk it (perhaps a lower chance of failure like 30%) whilst others prefer to operate how the Emperor intended.

 

Turning Intercessors into premium Sternguard works in the army aesthetic too. Why are some bigger than others? Well these ones are the elite.

 

Just musing but it would solve a lot of problems.

[Dark_Jober]

You become a Marine then as you get older you earn the right to become Primaris. Phill Kelly hinted at the idea in the podcast which I liked.

 

[...]

 

Marines earn the right and some make the personal choice to risk it (perhaps a lower chance of failure like 30%) whilst others prefer to operate how the Emperor intended.

 

Turning Intercessors into premium Sternguard works in the army aesthetic too. Why are some bigger than others? Well these ones are the elite.

 

Just musing but it would solve a lot of problems.

 

Orkish formula... the bigger the harder!

[Cryptix]

I actually prefer it the other way around, with the Primaris looking to Firstborn (the canon name for old marines) for guidance and tactical advice. That's why the only non-Primaris units I have in the Eternal Sentinels are HQs, Sternguard, Vanguard Veterans, Company Veterans, and the old Command Squad.