Different Marine Types: Insights from Phil Kelly interview

[Panzer]

Yeah my chapter is full Primaris except for the top guys like Chapter Master, Chief Librarian and such who are still regular Marines. ^^

[Nova_Dew]

It does appear (having just looked at my Codex Space Marines very quickly) that they dropped the silly Devastator-Assault-Tactical progression for Marines. Thank goodness.

 

***

 

One thing I'd like and think it squares a hole nicely... Primaris in non-Primaris Chapters become the veterans. It makes sense for the psychology of Space Marines.

 

You become a Marine then as you get older you earn the right to become Primaris. Phill Kelly hinted at the idea in the podcast which I liked.

 

Sure the Rubicon Primaris is odds on to kill a Marine but maybe that fluff is changed (shock, horror) and evolves?

 

Marines earn the right and some make the personal choice to risk it (perhaps a lower chance of failure like 30%) whilst others prefer to operate how the Emperor intended.

 

Turning Intercessors into premium Sternguard works in the army aesthetic too. Why are some bigger than others? Well these ones are the elite.

 

Just musing but it would solve a lot of problems.

 

Blood Angels still have the Assault, Devastator then tactical progression, at least in their squad write ups, no idea how it is for Primaris though

[Trevak Dal]

Tactical Marines are veterans of the Chapter from the Assault and Devastator squads. Personally I never approved of that background elaboration but it is what it is.

 

Fighting for a couple hundred years just makes you a Tactical Marine. The Primaris have been active for about a century so even the most experienced shouldn't be veterans any more than Tactical Marines should be.

That is why tacticals should come with Bolters (learned from devs and scouts) bolt pistols (learned from assault squads and scouts) and chainswords (learned from assault squads and scouts).

 

With 2 attacks base Primaris are practically that (if only asm could take all specials...)

[Xisor]

 

Tactical Marines are veterans of the Chapter from the Assault and Devastator squads. Personally I never approved of that background elaboration but it is what it is.

Fighting for a couple hundred years just makes you a Tactical Marine. The Primaris have been active for about a century so even the most experienced shouldn't be veterans any more than Tactical Marines should be.

That is why tacticals should come with Bolters (learned from devs and scouts) bolt pistols (learned from assault squads and scouts) and chainswords (learned from assault squads and scouts).

With 2 attacks base Primaris are practically that (if only asm could take all specials...)

And when I go on a camel trekking holiday , I take my cagoule (learnt from highland hiking), my cross-country skis (learnt from Norway), my crop-top (learnt from a night out in Newcastle) and my heavy duty scuba gear (learnt from Ibiza).

 

I think it might be advisable for GW to decouple the 'data sheet specification' from the textbook role within the chapter.

 

GW might have done this, insofar as the line/fire support/close support element stands. But it hasn't be explicitly said.

 

Simply: if you're Line, you could be doing Scout/Terminator/Intercessor/Tactical duty, on any given day.

 

They just need to be clear on what the dynamic is: who can do what.

 

(If they want my advice: play up the hypnoindoctrination angle - once you can fire a bolt rifle, you can be a terminator or a Chapter Master or a scout - as needed. Doesn't matter. You've got the skills, everyone else has too. Hypnoindoctrination is so effective that natural aptitude and hard-won expierience of centuries are basically monastic myths, for all the difference it makes. Promote someone to Chapter Master, watch them be Calgar-esque.)

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Dismissing the hundreds of years of experience Vet Marines have by saying, 'Eh, brain washing.' would be taking a giant dump on Marine lore. Let's not do that. It's already taking enough of a beating from GW forcing Primaris on us like they have..

 

Engineering bigger, better marines that make normals seem like shrimps with no talent hasn't done the army any favors from a lore, or a balance stand point. It's the Custodes problem, but worse, because these guys aren't even limited in number or super special. They're just better marines that are just as easy to create.

 

Sort of depressing, really.

[Gothical]

Tactical Marines are veterans of the Chapter from the Assault and Devastator squads. Personally I never approved of that background elaboration but it is what it is.

 

Quite (although you have said it has now been pushed aside, bar Blood Angels).

 

Lest we forget, however, that the above progression was a retcon in an of itself. Prior to that lore the progression route was Scout > Tactical (usually in Reserve Company) and, during both training and active deployment, those that showed a proficiency for heavy weapons were sent to the Devastator Squads and those with a flair for melee were sent to the Assault Squads. Those that were all-rounders stayed as Tactical Marines, moving into the Battle Companies to replace losses.

 

That made far more sense to me, both from maintaining peak fighting performance and suiting the stats of the Tactical Marine.

[Ascanius]

I'm sure that we'll have Primaris vets models soon(rules exist for them via a formation), and Techmarines.

 

I also don't think we need overly blinged-up special models to represent Primaris veterans.

[Sete]

 

 

I'm sure that we'll have Primaris vets models soon(rules exist for them via a formation), and Techmarines.

I also don't think we need overly blinged-up special models to represent Primaris veterans.

Depends if the chapter has a specific unit to represent the veterans.

 

Which I personally want, to break the uniformity the Primaris Chapters have.

 

Let's not forget that despite Primaris have been in the setting for 250 years, some of them are part of chapters with 10000 years history and traditions. New reinforcement of primaris, after the initial Cawl batch, would adopt the existing chapters dogma and tradition.

 

Edit: I do not believe the initial batch would be trusted 100% by the existing chapter command. After all they were dropped by an outsider influence. And chapters always been autonomous to a fault.

[Ascanius]

I'm not opposed to a Primaris equivalent of Firstborn Veteran squads; I just don't want them to thoughtlessly ape the Crux Terminatus-and-eagles-everywhere design of those Veteran squads.

[Sete]

I'm not opposed to a Primaris equivalent of Firstborn Veteran squads; I just don't want them to thoughtlessly ape the Crux Terminatus-and-eagles-everywhere design of those Veteran squads.

On that I agree, No need to overdo them.

[Arkangilos]

I think some people confuse gameplay with lore.

 

Just because they don’t have vets in gameplay doesn’t mean they don’t have vets. Just because they don’t ride rhinos in gameplay doesn’t mean they can’t get in a rhino and drive around.

 

Full Primaris chapters (now) would likely maintain everything a normal chapter has, but with Primaris infantry tactics (so intercessors vs tactical).

[Ishagu]

I think some people confuse gameplay with lore.

 

Just because they don’t have vets in gameplay doesn’t mean they don’t have vets. Just because they don’t ride rhinos in gameplay doesn’t mean they can’t get in a rhino and drive around.

 

Full Primaris chapters (now) would likely maintain everything a normal chapter has, but with Primaris infantry tactics (so intercessors vs tactical).

Exactly this. Unless people think Guilliman glides down with his tiny wings. Tabletop limitations are not representative of the in-universe.

[FlamingDeth]

Don't be silly, Guilliman jumps down out of the strike cruiser from space and does the super hero landing.

[Ascanius]

If I had my druthers, Primaris would be an opportunity to upscale Space Marine vehicles to appropriate sizes. Rhinos the size of Land Raiders, for instance - because no-one believes you can get five Space Marines in a Rhino's troop compartment, much less ten.

[The Unseen]

If I had my druthers, Primaris would be an opportunity to upscale Space Marine vehicles to appropriate sizes. Rhinos the size of Land Raiders, for instance - because no-one believes you can get five Space Marines in a Rhino's troop compartment, much less ten.

That's the case with literally every single factions transports. Even your historical wargames tend to have their vehicles on the small side, so you don't have to play a :cussing huge table, or with itty bitty soldiers and small tanks like in 5mm range.

 

Do you want to try and run a mechanized marine army with 6 land raider sized vehicles on a 6x4 table? I know I don't. You'd spend more time maneuvering around your own stuff than the terrain.

 

And it isn't like the Repulsor is any better, it's just a small compared to the new infantry as the older marine vehicles are to the old scale. Go ahead and tell me you can fit 10 intercessors into the repulsor, along with its crew, and ammo to feed its ridiculous number of guns. Go on, do it, so I can laugh.

[Ascanius]

I won't. But I'd rather not have transports than have such idiotic size disparities, if you want me to be completely honest.

[Ishagu]

The Repulsor looks infinitely better next to a Primaris squad than a Rhino does.

 

I never want to see any Rhino chassis vehicle anywhere near Primaris.

[Lemondish]

Don't be silly, Guilliman jumps down out of the strike cruiser from space and does the super hero landing.

That's so bad for his knees.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

If I had my druthers, Primaris would be an opportunity to upscale Space Marine vehicles to appropriate sizes. Rhinos the size of Land Raiders, for instance - because no-one believes you can get five Space Marines in a Rhino's troop compartment, much less ten.

It was a deliberate choice to downsize vehicles. Particularly from the age of having to use access hatches on vehicles. It would take a whole movement phase just to get from the back of the tank to the front!

[Marshal Reinhard]

I always thought rhino's were embarrassingly small though. I never actually got a rhino chassis based tank.

[Volt]

The main issue with the scale of vehicles is that if Land Raiders and Rhinos were the proper size you could barely field any vehicles on the table due to the game being 28mm - it simply isn't suited for true scale vehicles and monsters that would bloat up the board and be unable to take advantage of LOS blocking terrain and the such. Or if you could even cram something like 6 true scale rhinos (which would about repulsor-sized) onto a table as-is. 

[Ascanius]

I accept it's a necessary compromise for playability, and I know especially in the UK playing space can be at a premium due to historical architectural factors, but it still niggles at me every time I let myself think about it.

 

Then, too, it was less egregious back in the late Eighties when Space Marines were smaller and squatter. I don't want to go back to those aesthetics, but still . . . !

[Dracos]

Try not to think about it then;) I mean can you imagine the size most of the Flyers would have to be increased to to appear True Scale? I'm all for wanting things to perform and even look "realistic" as possible myself, but some things we just have to say ....  yeah, okay game mechanics.

[TheTrans]

The Repulsor looks infinitely better next to a Primaris squad than a Rhino does.

 

I never want to see any Rhino chassis vehicle anywhere near Primaris.

Oh god how I beg to differ haha. 

 

You have marines that a a good whack larger than OG marines, next to a vehicle whos 'hold' size when you factor in the gubbinz is akin to a rhino anyway.

 

That and that thing is hideous beyond words...  subjective and all that...but..yeah..eww

 

I use a Spartan as a Land Raider for my truescale marines :P... 

[Captain Idaho]

Spartans are appropriate in size for cool :)