Different Marine Types: Insights from Phil Kelly interview

[TheTrans]

Spartans are appropriate in size for cool

Yeah, still woefully too small for a Crusader Configuration..but at least it's not as blatant haha. 

[Closet Skeleton]

40k vehicles aren't that out of scale. The Falcon is the worst but you don't have to fit a standing trooper in those transports. If you look at photos of real world vehicles then they aren't as big as you'd think.

 

The rhino is most based off the American M113 from the cold war period (and today) which is only 2.5 meters tall and carried 10 men while being only slightly longer than a rhino in proportions. Primaris marines are still shorter than 3rd ed rhinos. The typical wide gait pose of a marine means they take up a lot more space on their 25mm base than they would sitting down in their tracked 'sardine can'.

[ShinyRhino]

One reason there may not be any Primaris Techmarines yet is the lack of need for them so far in the story.

These guys wear armor and wield weapons created by Cawl, and drive a single vehicle type (Repulsor). They've not had time to break things yet, and when they do, they have the support of one of the greatest Mechanicus minds ever. Cawl seems like the micromanaging type. "I'll fix it for you, you won't get it right."

 

There's also the mental and cultural aspect of Primaris to consider. In Of Honour and Iron, the Primaris Marines are like ROTC members. They can quote texts and talk about simulated combat stats, but don't fight with any emotional attachment. Everything is a theoretical to them, even Chaos Marines. The Chaplain in the story had to teach the Primaris to hate their enemies.

 

You can extrapolate that to a less reverent attitude toward their war gear. OldMarines worship their relic war gear, often spending more time praying over a piece than using it. Primaris could simply be less mystified by their gear, requiring none of the "secret initiation" given to Oldmarine Techmarines on Mars.

 

Of course, the timeline has advanced 250 years or so, so there's time for that mysticism to have grown in the Primaris.

[Ishagu]

Or for that mysticism to have been excised from existing forces.

 

You're referring to the book "Of Honor and Iron" - I wouldn't take too much from that particular novel.

[ShinyRhino]

You're referring to the book "Of Honor and Iron" - I wouldn't take too much from that particular novel.

What makes you say that?

[Volt]

One reason there may not be any Primaris Techmarines yet is the lack of need for them so far in the story.

These guys wear armor and wield weapons created by Cawl, and drive a single vehicle type (Repulsor). They've not had time to break things yet, and when they do, they have the support of one of the greatest Mechanicus minds ever. Cawl seems like the micromanaging type. "I'll fix it for you, you won't get it right."

 

There's also the mental and cultural aspect of Primaris to consider. In Of Honour and Iron, the Primaris Marines are like ROTC members. They can quote texts and talk about simulated combat stats, but don't fight with any emotional attachment. Everything is a theoretical to them, even Chaos Marines. The Chaplain in the story had to teach the Primaris to hate their enemies.

 

You can extrapolate that to a less reverent attitude toward their war gear. OldMarines worship their relic war gear, often spending more time praying over a piece than using it. Primaris could simply be less mystified by their gear, requiring none of the "secret initiation" given to Oldmarine Techmarines on Mars.

 

Of course, the timeline has advanced 250 years or so, so there's time for that mysticism to have grown in the Primaris.

You need Techmarines for every single chapter in order to simply make sure the vehicles run. They've absolutely had time to "break" Repulsors as not only have they fought in battles and sustained casualties (and thus would have to reclaim wrecked hulls for repair and re-issue), but no tank just "works". It breaks down, a part needs replacing, any digital components may need debugging, dirt will collect and clog up parts of the tank, barrels will need to be replaced, and sights need constant calibration. Some of that can be done by the crew but you ultimately need somebody who knows that vehicle inside and out and spent years training as an engineer to maintain it in working condition. A Chapter without a Techmarine is a Chapter that doesn't fight, as even something as "simple" as power armor will need maintenance and spare parts after a campaign. 

[Panzer]

Chapters need Techmarines, but they don't necessarily need them on the battlefield except to drive vehicles and handle vehicle guns. Footslogging Techmarines is a super niche battlefield role. ^^

"The crew" are Techmarines after all. ;)

[Cryptix]

I thought crew members were either failed initiates or reserve company astartes that don't wear their full armor?

[Lord_Caerolion]

One reason there may not be any Primaris Techmarines yet is the lack of need for them so far in the story.

These guys wear armor and wield weapons created by Cawl, and drive a single vehicle type (Repulsor). They've not had time to break things yet, and when they do, they have the support of one of the greatest Mechanicus minds ever. Cawl seems like the micromanaging type. "I'll fix it for you, you won't get it right."

 

There's also the mental and cultural aspect of Primaris to consider. In Of Honour and Iron, the Primaris Marines are like ROTC members. They can quote texts and talk about simulated combat stats, but don't fight with any emotional attachment. Everything is a theoretical to them, even Chaos Marines. The Chaplain in the story had to teach the Primaris to hate their enemies.

 

You can extrapolate that to a less reverent attitude toward their war gear. OldMarines worship their relic war gear, often spending more time praying over a piece than using it. Primaris could simply be less mystified by their gear, requiring none of the "secret initiation" given to Oldmarine Techmarines on Mars.

 

Of course, the timeline has advanced 250 years or so, so there's time for that mysticism to have grown in the Primaris.

 

The Primaris have existed for roughly 200 years, give or take a few dozen years or so. Anyone who's worked in any kind of support/maintenance role will tell you that is absolutely enough time for stuff to break, and that's just in civilian gear. We're talking about soldiers wargear being taken into active battle. There's not a machine in the field that'd come out of a skirmish not requiring at least some level of upkeep and maintenance. Cawl wouldn't be able to provide tech support for the entire Indomitus Crusade.

 

Lastly, the Ultramarines had that exact same mindset during the Great Crusade, and still do, to an extent, and yet still have the same techno-mysticism when it comes to technology. Even to the most advanced Magos, technology in the Imperium is still a religion.

[Captain Idaho]

I think it's just a simple matter of resource management when they produced the models. There is no Techmarine because they haven't produced one yet. Not point just to justify the lack of a model into the background. After all, there are a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't have model representation yet is in the background.

 

Second; it would be a massive shame if GW takes away the techno mysticism that plagues the Imperium. It's as fundamental as the gothic nature of the Imperium and crude cybernetics, which is also declining in mainline 40K (but seems to be alive and well in the more peripheral games which is great).

[Marshal Reinhard]

I thought crew members were either failed initiates or reserve company astartes that don't wear their full armor?

 

No. In most cases of crewed vehicles (attack bikes and speeders are pretty much an exception), the crewman typically is an at least partly painted red marine that has a cog mechanicus symbol on the one shoulder.

 

For primaris the only case of this is the repulsor so far, and it follows this pattern, the optional gunner comes with a cog mechanicus shoulder, no backpack and is painted red in official on the official photos. The old optional gunner for land raiders and the like was the exact same. If you look at stuff like stormravens, you again see a familiar red hue of the pilot, even on ones painted in UM colors, etc.

 

There does seem to be exceptions to this in the form of Tank commanders. Sergeant chronus, the only named example, doesn't show any mechanicus livery i can see. Neither does the marines that look out from the command rhino and land raider variants that can only be gotten at warhammer world.

 

But yeah, most of vehicle crews are techmarines and Primaris are no different and even has them already. We just haven't seen a footslogging one yet.

[Ishagu]

In the lore they have other vehicles like the Overlord so it's safe to assume Primaris techmarines exist but aren't talked about and won't be until a model release.

[Dracos]

As a “1st born (batch) son of the Emperor I’d hope Bobby G was disgusted with the Imperiums Ecclesiarchy and mysticisms. The Emperor was a man of science whose relationship with Mars was a deal with the Devil (Dragon) that he knew would have to be confronted some day. He just never got the chance and the leadership on Terra was too weak and corrupt to do anything themselves.

 

Now that he’s returned and many of the Primaris also come from a time of the Emperor’s foundation of science over religion that Primaris Chapter’s would be strong enough to resist the hokey old religions and trust to their blasters (wait wrong universe :;) but you know what I mean. The clock has advanced , the story is expanding and I hope there’s room for a Techmarine that’s actually an engineer-scientist as Master of the Forge. :)

[Panzer]

As a “1st born (batch) son of the Emperor I’d hope Bobby G was disgusted with the Imperiums Ecclesiarchy and mysticisms. The Emperor was a man of science whose relationship with Mars was a deal with the Devil (Dragon) that he knew would have to be confronted some day. He just never got the chance and the leadership on Terra was too weak and corrupt to do anything themselves.

 

Now that he’s returned and many of the Primaris also come from a time of the Emperor’s foundation of science over religion that Primaris Chapter’s would be strong enough to resist the hokey old religions and trust to their blasters (wait wrong universe : but you know what I mean. The clock has advanced , the story is expanding and I hope there’s room for a Techmarine that’s actually an engineer-scientist as Master of the Forge.

Well Guilliman IS disgusted by it and was constantly questioning their believes but he also saw that he couldn't do anything directly against them without pushing the Imperium into yet another civil war. Also after what happened at the end of Dark Imperium 2 he's kinda open to the idea that there's more to the emperor these days than it used to be the case. He didn't accept it yet and is still questioning it but it's a possibility he can't completely ignore anymore.

 

Not to mention that the Ecclesiarchy has literally nothing to do with the AdMech and their believes (which includes the Techmarines).

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I thought crew members were either failed initiates or reserve company astartes that don't wear their full armor?

 

IIRC, crew members (at least for transports) aren't necessarily full-blown Techmarines, but rather battle brothers with an aptitude for piloting and hardware. To become a full-blown Techmarine, they must go and serve a stint on Mars for an unknown period of time, which involves some level of fealty sworn to Mars for having her secrets divulged. The chaps with singular Red shoulder pads are, in effect, "understudies" to the true Techmarines. If a Techmarine were to fall, their replacement to be sent to Mars would typically be selected from this "motorpool" of candidates.

 

There are some similar parallels with the Reclusiarchy and Librarius as well. (Part time acolyte-sort-of-deal).

[Mmmmm Napalm]

Or for that mysticism to have been excised from existing forces.

 

 

Y-you don't want this, do you?

[Dracos]

 

Or for that mysticism to have been excised from existing forces.

 

Y-you don't want this, do you?

 

 

From Primaris? .... Absolutely!

[Captain Idaho]

I find it quite astonishing folk actually want the background staples that built such great gothic and archaic horror into the grim future of what is the Imperium to be eroded and replaced with such mundane and generic sci-fi tropes.

 

Colour me a sad panda.

[Sete]

I have no words really.

[Dracos]

First of all ... its not gonna happen, so I wouldn't get in a twist about it. :)

 

Secondly, I try very hard to separate my thoughts when it comes to the fluff and the rules. I missed half of 5th, 6th, and 7th, during m hiatus, so all my head canon comes from before, I might have read the first dozen HH books and was shocked when I saw there was a game based on the time period. I wasn't interested in it, because it was in the fluff the end result was a foregone conclusion. Like I said I try to seperate the TT and the stories but, yeah can be hard, I get it.

 

I'm also a dedicated RPGer. What I did like about those stories was a peek behind the curtain that we only got a rough sketch while I was playing on the TT 2nd through the beginning of 5th. I bought into the Emperor's vision for mankind in the universe. I like that Space Marines were suppose to bring not just war but enlightenment in a dark universe. The failures only made the story deeper and let's be real, the TT requires storylines that give us reasons for anyone being in conflict with anyone at any time. I'm good with that.

 

But .... I still want heroes to be heroes fighting the good fight for the right reasons, and the story was so dark, so gothic, so grim, that it actually turned me away. I enjoyed the models but until I got a better look at the Emperor and his sons the fluff was dead to me ....

 

.... which as a RPGer made me sad.

 

I'm not looking to turn the Imperium into a Mary Sue of sunshine and rainbows, but I do believe there should be a place for honest to God good guys int he universe, or at least a Faction that not only fights the Heretic and the Xenos, but is willing to stand up to the Imperiums more corrupt institutions. I thought it might come from the Greyshields of the Primaris. Survivors of a time when religion and dogma of the Mechanicus, Inquistion, and Ecclesiarchy weren't a boot on the neck of the average Imperial citizen.

 

Just a glimmer of light? Surely in such an expansive universe there's room for a glimmer? :)

[Ishagu]

Most Astartes have always been secular. It's not really a great departure. The Primaris are simply closer to the old Legions in their attitude and function. You can argue they are more true to their original design.

[Brother Casman]

I don't know if "secular" is the right word. I think it would be more accurate to say that the Adeptus Astartes have their own traditions that differ from the Mechanicus, Ecclesiarchy, etc. In general, they don't worship the Emperor as a god, but they do revere Him as the greatest man ever. I would say that most Chapters still have some mysticism baked in; it's just different and more pragmatic perhaps.

 

While the first-born Primaris Space Marines would probably feel more like Legionaries of old, since they were pulled from the Legions, the second-born would have been raised in the traditions of their Chapter, with all of the mysticism and warrior cults that they might have.

 

There's probably space for some glimmers of light, but I would think that it's more born of the fires of defiance than hope. The Imperium stands at the End, so we rage against the dying of the light, spit in the eyes of the Dark Gods, and die with our boots on, fighting to the last.

[Sete]

We had more than a glimmer of light, we had a god damn lighthouse beacon with the Primaris.

I agree that the first batch of primaris (and I cannot tell you how much I hate the fact that they are from heresy era) would be less into the traditions of the chapters/legions. They would basically be outcasts in the chapter, unless we are ignoring the chapters background now aswell.

The following marines would be neck deep into indoctrination just in case.

And lets not bring into question the previous established lore of how much heresy it would be to fiddle around with the astartes gene seed.

[Panzer]

But the AdMech was always fiddleing with the astartes geneseed and so do the apothecaries of different chapters (most famously Corbulo from the Blood Angels).

[Sete]

But the AdMech was always fiddleing with the astartes geneseed and so do the apothecaries of different chapters (most famously Corbulo from the Blood Angels).

Yes always fiddling, but was that ever seen in a positive light?