Different Marine Types: Insights from Phil Kelly interview

[Panzer]

I don't think there was ever much positive to be seen with the AdMech in the first place. ^^

[Mmmmm Napalm]

 

 

 

Or for that mysticism to have been excised from existing forces.

 

Y-you don't want this, do you?

From Primaris? .... Absolutely!

well that's not fun at all.

 

What made SM cool to me is that they had an element of mysticism and tradition to then, which set them apart from other sci fi supersoldiers. They are warrior monks with long held traditions and beliefs that affect how they see the world and how they interact with different groups.

 

Removing that element makes them boring.

 

They can still be heroes and a positive force in the Imperium without being dull and purely rationalistic

[Panzer]

Seriously, nothing about that really changed. Primaris are just stronger and taller. Sure they have newish gear but that doesn't change anything about their culture as long as the chapter doesn't throw the old and sacred gear out of the window. ^^

[Brother Lunkhead]

I don't think we have anything to worry about when it comes to the mystical and ritual steeped atmosphere surrounding Space Marines. Primaris are still Space Marines and Space Marines are still the warrior monks of the Imperium of Man with all the ten thousand years of tradition and ritual that goes with it.

 

Roboute Guilliman for all his distain for the Ecclesiarchy and rational genius is still the product of a civilization that was just coming out of the dark ages. Even Astartes of his era practically crossed themselves every time they invoked the Emperor's name. Guilliman and Cawl may be ushering in a Renaissance of sorts, neither the Imperium  nor the Astartes chapters are about to adopt a sterile secular world view.

 

As far as Primaris Techmarines go, I'm sure that until we see new models the old school Techmarines are more than capable of taking care of the new Primaris toys and keeping them battle worthy

[Mmmmm Napalm]

Seriously, nothing about that really changed. Primaris are just stronger and taller. Sure they have newish gear but that doesn't change anything about their culture as long as the chapter doesn't throw the old and sacred gear out of the window. ^^

oh I don't think that they're going to throw out the ritual and mysticism, I'm just alarmed that there are some that want that to happen.

[Mmmmm Napalm]

I don't think we have anything to worry about when it comes to the mystical and ritual steeped atmosphere surrounding Space Marines. Primaris are still Space Marines and Space Marines are still the warrior monks of the Imperium of Man with all the ten thousand years of tradition and ritual that goes with it.

 

Roboute Guilliman for all his distain for the Ecclesiarchy and rational genius is still the product of a civilization that was just coming out of the dark ages. Even Astartes of his era practically crossed themselves every time they invoked the Emperor's name. Guilliman and Cawl may be ushering in a Renaissance of sorts, neither the Imperium nor the Astartes chapters are about to adopt a sterile secular world view.

 

As far as Primaris Techmarines go, I'm sure that until we see new models the old school Techmarines are more than capable of taking care of the new Primaris toys and keeping them battle worthy

Yeah I've always disagreed that space marines (even the chapters that don't see the Emperor as divine) are "secular" or rationalistic as a whole. They're so devoted to the Emperor, and traditional/ritualistic that they're basically religious all but in name.

[Captain Idaho]

Worshipping someone as a man is much the same as worshipping someone as a god, in almost every single way. Certainly every way that counts.

[Xisor]

 

I don't think we have anything to worry about when it comes to the mystical and ritual steeped atmosphere surrounding Space Marines. Primaris are still Space Marines and Space Marines are still the warrior monks of the Imperium of Man with all the ten thousand years of tradition and ritual that goes with it.

 

Roboute Guilliman for all his distain for the Ecclesiarchy and rational genius is still the product of a civilization that was just coming out of the dark ages. Even Astartes of his era practically crossed themselves every time they invoked the Emperor's name. Guilliman and Cawl may be ushering in a Renaissance of sorts, neither the Imperium nor the Astartes chapters are about to adopt a sterile secular world view.

 

As far as Primaris Techmarines go, I'm sure that until we see new models the old school Techmarines are more than capable of taking care of the new Primaris toys and keeping them battle worthy

Yeah I've always disagreed that space marines (even the chapters that don't see the Emperor as divine) are "secular" or rationalistic as a whole. They're so devoted to the Emperor, and traditional/ritualistic that they're basically religious all but in name.

Not to mentioned that they're literally, regularly brainwashed.

 

I'm maybe on the wrong path in life, or perhaps a bit naive, but I don't think brainwashing has ever been a step on the path to secular enlightenment.

 

Maybe they missed a trick by not promptly having the Indomitus Crusade rebel against Guilliman and secede to take control of the T'au Empire...

[UnkyHamHam]

The cynical nature of humanity that 40k is built on kind of says that might not be so effective as super soldiers without the brainwashing and mysticism. In my opinion at least.

[Rik Lightstar]

We had more than a glimmer of light, we had a god damn lighthouse beacon with the Primaris.

 

I disagree, to carry on an already laboured analogy.

 

The first reveals of the Primaris were the flare of a match that's lit a candle. There's a little more light, but it's also cast a large shadow over half the Galaxy.

 

The Imperium is not any better off now really than they were before the return of Guilliman. They have Primaris and a Primarch, but they've lost Cadia and the rift has been created.

 

The clock has been rewound (maybe even rebuilt), but it's still 5 minutes to midnight.

 

Rik

[Captain Idaho]

Let's not confuse plot for character.

 

The plot of the galaxy is very bleak (if a little contrived on Vigilus).

 

The character of Primaris is very much clean cut, deus ex machina and dare I say it; Mary Sue.

[Panzer]

 For now at least. We've already seen some darkness in the BA Codex as Corbulo reported about the Primaris tearing enemies apart with unnecessary brutality hinting at a strong return of the Red Thirst. So they probably aren't as much Mary Sue as they seem. Just a different and bit stronger flavour of the Marines we know. 

[Sete]

 

We had more than a glimmer of light, we had a god damn lighthouse beacon with the Primaris.

 

I disagree, to carry on an already laboured analogy.

 

The first reveals of the Primaris were the flare of a match that's lit a candle. There's a little more light, but it's also cast a large shadow over half the Galaxy.

 

The Imperium is not any better off now really than they were before the return of Guilliman. They have Primaris and a Primarch, but they've lost Cadia and the rift has been created.

 

The clock has been rewound (maybe even rebuilt), but it's still 5 minutes to midnight.

 

Rik

Guilliman was the glimmer of light.

Tens of thousands of super space marines...

 

I agree that things are still bleak, but the Imperium could have been worse without the Primaris. As it should have been in my opinion.

[Panzer]

To be fair, all the Primaris achieved is to stem the tide caused by the fall of Cadia and the appearance of the great rift. So far they haven't done anything to better the situation compared to before Abaddon managed to rip the galaxy in half. In fact they were so overwhelmed by this new situation that Guilliman was forced to do some propaganda and call the Indomitus Crusade a success to make the rest of the Imperium welcome the Primaris without ever finishing said crusade.

[Sete]

I'm just gonna say after hearing our Martyred Lady, if Guilliman enforces a plan to ban religion it will destroy the Imperium. And i aint talking about civil war.

Don't forget there is power in symbols and faith. They affect the warp.

 

Spoilers of the Our Martyred Lady plot read at your own risk

Alpha Legion is trying to destroy the Imperial church shrine world's to destroy pilgrimage routes of the faithfull to Terra. In doing so they are trying to expand the Great rift to isolate Terra and the astronomican.

[Lemondish]

Let's not confuse plot for character.

 

The plot of the galaxy is very bleak (if a little contrived on Vigilus).

 

The character of Primaris is very much clean cut, deus ex machina and dare I say it; Mary Sue.

Bold words on the Mary Sue front - seems they failed. A hallmark of the Mary Sue is that they will have few, if any meaningful challenges, hardships, or handicaps. Obstacles that exist for others are virtually nonexistent or pose little to no challenge for a Mary Sue.

 

Primaris don't strike me as anywhere near that. From the table to the lore, all they've managed to achieve is a tourniquet on an Imperium that is still losing ground. They are not the surprise solution to everything.

[Dracos]

"Improved" but definitely not Mary Sue.

 

I just figure somewhere in the 900 (?) all Primaris Chapters that were created more than a couple would have a desire to bring the Emperor's true vision into the future. Will it change the Imperium as a whole, no, not even close. I do think it would make for an interesting series of books as the learn how to deal with and survive (or not) where corrupt institutions are often as much the problem as an answer in their selfish hoarding of power (in it's many forms)

 

 

 

PS: and please don't think I have anything against organized religion or it's "counterparts" in 40K .... I'm right there beside every Templar screaming loudly for a Codex they can call their own. One that makes sense with all the new Primaris ;)

[Marshal Reinhard]

Let's not confuse plot for character.

 

The plot of the galaxy is very bleak (if a little contrived on Vigilus).

 

The character of Primaris is very much clean cut, deus ex machina and dare I say it; Mary Sue.

 

Well that's an opinion and a half.

[RikuEru]

Anyone thinking Primaris are Mary Sues or that 40k is noblebright now or the Imperium (especially the Nihilus half of it) isn't worse of than ever, should go read Spear of the Emperor by A D-B.

You WILL come back a changed man.

 

The Primaris are 'just' Marines.

It's not even mentioned much, that most of the Spears are Primaris.

Not everything about the Primaris is easy going and jolly.

Quite the contrary...

The Spears only got a delivery of the knowledge/technique on how to raise new initiates as Primaris. Not a Squad or more of actual Primaris.

And it took their Apothecaries some time and quite some trial and (horrific) error, to get it right.

 

Neither are the Rubicon Primaris Procedure or Calgarian Rites just a "It's dangerous to go alone, take this!" Kinda Boost you can easily have.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah but I'm saying Mary Sue to their personal challenges rather than the plotline of the entire gaming system!

 

Wait a go to isolate a single element of what I've said and ignore the context and everything else I've said... ;)

[RikuEru]

Wait a go to isolate a single element of what I've said and ignore the context and everything else I've said... ;)

My statement wasn't a reply to you specifically, but to the general complaints that have come up in this thread and others before it. The sentiment that 40k's days of grimdark gothic dystopia are gone.

But Yes, I have to admit, I did pick up the term "Mary Sue", because it is a complaint brought up quite often. So I should have marked it as "not a counter-point to Captain Idaho", sorry.

 

To elaborate:

 

The book is an example of Primaris being portrayed very well, with flaws, with character, not as undeserving overachievers, as multi-faceted, likable individuals. Just like "Old Marines" in many other books.

Also it's our first in-depth look at the Rubicon Primaris and Calgarian Rites, showing how much effort and risk they take for a SINGLE Marine to undergo that process - and the re-adjusting to the new, larger body in the weeks afterwards.

 

Add to that the view into a sector of Imperium Nihilus we get in the book, the state of the Imperium on that side, the always present conflict between Imperial organisations.

That way, A D-B has shown that "y'er olde grimdark Warhammer 40k of yesteryear" is not a thing of the past.

 

The latest Uriel Ventris Short-story apparently shows

his dreams/visions, while in a coma during/after HIS Rubicon Primaris procedure. So we get an insight look into the mental change aswell.

 

And I think the next months and year will give us more Lore of more well-known and maybe new characters going for that change. Also examples of how well (or not) certain chapters have integrated Primaris forces and adapted them to their own needs.

If done well -I- think, it could mend many wounds of people unhappy with the rushed/incomplete introduction of Primaris. (Mind you, not everyone will. Some people are as adamant in their opinion as the core frame of an Imperial Battleship.)

 

TL;DR:

We need more GOOD Lore and fluff pieces, preferably by the authors of BL, not just the codex writers, to get a good, more elaborate view of the Primaris and their position in Chapters and the universe as a whole.

 

++++

 

But way to go and isolate a single element of what I've said, take it personally, with no reason to and ignore the context of what I meant and everything else I've said, instead going for a snarky comment... And not to forget: ;)

 

Maybe read the next reply twice, take a breather and then reply. We are a brotherhood in here, with a love for the hobby/universe. No need to get agitated over replies that aren't even aimed at us in a wild discussion.

[Captain Idaho]

I was more replying to the dog pile onto me by multiple posters.

[RikuEru]

I was more replying to the dog pile onto me by multiple posters.

Okay, that's obviously something i did not see or notice that way.

I apologize and can only repeat that I, personally, wasn't 'dogpiling' in response to your specific mention of Mary Sue.

 

Back to topic:

 

Another thing that needs some spotlight are the Full-On Primaris Ultima Founding Chapters, not limited to, but specifically the Wolfspear and any Salamanders Successor chapters.

[Sete]

I  personally think they should release a Lieutenant for every chapter featured on the codex (with a nifty upgrade sprue) then focus on new ultima founding chaps.

IF/CF was a great upgrade sprue, I want to see more of it.

[Volt]

I  personally think they should release a Lieutenant for every chapter featured on the codex (with a nifty upgrade sprue) then focus on new ultima founding chaps.

IF/CF was a great upgrade sprue, I want to see more of it.

Specialized monopose nonsense is a terrible idea. What we need is the Primaris equipment roster to include everything normal marines can get, with a multi part kit box similar to the marine commander set chock full of wargear. If you need a chapter specific model, you can slap some greenstuff on or helms from other sets.