Veterans and razorbacks

[IronDreddKnight]

Since the new CA dropped I’ve been stocking up on more veterans. I’m planning on running MSU in razorbacks. But I can’t decide how to equip them.

 

Maybe a anti tank load out, with multi meltas and twin lascannon razor. (Im leaning toward this since we have fewer answers for tanks than we do for say hordes)

 

Stick to storm bolters with assault cannon support.

 

Do I use rhinos instead?

 

Should I ignore a transport all together and design a backfield unit?

 

It’s worth mentioning that I’ve already got deep striking kill teams, so I teleportarium is out of the question

[Vel'Cona]

1.  Rhinos are kind of pointless.  They have pathetic firepower and don't get SIA on their SBs (which would have been awesome).  You don't need the extra capacity either.

 

2.  This is the typical response; ignore Transports entirely and just take backfield support (ie. Dreadnoughts).

 

Without digging into FW, options are slight.  If you're willing to dunk the cash and work with resin, there's a ton of what I consider "extraneous to codex" options in the FW Space Marine Index.  I'll leave it to the rest of the forum to outline those (bit short on time).

[anarchistscourge]

I often run 6 man vet squads in TLAC razorbacks. Watch sergeant and black shield with SB/PS, 2 vets with SB/SS and then 2 frag cannons. Mulches most stuff as they move up the board

[Mobius0288]

Before chapter approved 2018, I would say take a Ven Dread and supplement with a razorback (lascannon) as necessary. Now I would just say take a Ven Dread and supplement with either hellblasters or some missile vets. This is both a chapter approved and experience decision. Hellblasters are good because they can be stacked with an intercessor unit and they do better against Necron quantum shield vehicles. For razorbacks I would prioritize twin assault cannons, then maybe a twin heavy bolter. Some argue the twin heavy bolter is a waste of time but if your just trying to rush them down the field without an HQ to support, then that's probably the best (cheapest) choice to still get some anti-infantry pot shots.

 

My twin assault razorback consistently runs with my storm bolter unit:

1. Sgt - Power Axe, Storm Bolter

2. Blackshield - Power Axe, Storm Bolter

3. Vet - Storm Shield, Storm Bolter

4. Vet - Storm Shield, Storm Bolter

5. Vet - Storm Shield, Storm Bolter

6. Captain, Watch Master or Vet w/Frag Cannon

 

I've also run shotguns and frag cannons. Because it has a twin assault cannons, it will get targeted fairly early so it may be good to keep the squad sort of basic (Storm Bolters, storm shields, etc).

 

I still use rhinos and they have served me well, I think it just depends on army synergy. I don't run double battalions so I try to keep some of my CPs where I can, plus I push up with other fast units (VVs, Bikers and razorbacks) to support. If they choose to ignore my rhino, which some do, I get to charge that into a unit so it absorbs overwatch before my other units charge in.

 

I'm not sure we can use the multi-melta on the razorback, unless its Forgeworld? But again I would say to use the Ven Dread and some other AT option.

 

For a backfield unit, I would recommend a stalker/missile unit. Usually it's:

- 3 Stalker bolters (storm shield or two)

- 1-2 Missile Launchers

- 0-1 Heavy Bolter

- 0-2 Cyclone Missile Launcher Termies

 

Others will vouch. It's a great unit that is flexible against most targets and it can dish out mortal wounds (tempest shells, hellfire rounds or flakk missile stratagems) when needed. Keep in mind that the CMLs are a 36" range while the missile launchers are 48".

[zero88]

It depends on what your teleporting force looks like. If it's 10 storm bolters, then some combi meltas make sense. If it's plasmablasters, then taking Dakka makes sense. One thing I will say is that the Rhino makes for a good Multiple Frag Cannon transport. 6 bodies isn't enough protection if you are running 2+ DFCs, so the rhino can be good for advancing and popping smoke, then unloading a bunch of DFCs, Shotguns, and Shields.

[vigitant]

I feel the most optimal approach for DW is to footslog and occasionally deep strike storm bolter vets, and rely on smash captains, watchmaster(with relic option/strats), and smite for AT.

With 2pt shields our veterans are typically more resilient than the transport. so you can almost run another troop unit for the cost of a transport, and the unit is going to outperform the transport.

Also consider that transports leave you vulnerable to getting wrapped and exploded, or just wrapped and perma-locked in combat, especcially if transporting expensive options like frag cannons.

[IronDreddKnight]

Thank you everyone for the feedback. It’s given me a lot good points to consider.

 

One thing I’ve noticed is everyone has a different view on rhinos, razorbacks and transports in general.

 

I suppose it depends on the list whether they make good choices or not.

 

With that in mind, I’ll tell you what other things I’m already including, then you will have a better picture.

 

I’m going to run 2 battalions, but I need to design another 3 kill teams.. here’s what what I’m running...

 

Watch master

Librarian - jump pack, axe

Capatain - jump pack, hammer, shield, beacon

Chaplain dreadnought - twin las, fist, SB

 

Kill team 1

Sargent - auto bolt rifle, chainsword

Intercessor - auto bolt rifle

Intercessor - auto bolt rifle

Intercessor - auto bolt rifle

Intercessor - auto bolt rifle

Aggressor - bolt/frag

Aggressor - bolt/frag

Aggressor - bolt/frag

Aggressor - bolt/frag

Inceptor - assault bolters

 

(Kill team 1 will use beacon to get to the front lines turn 1)

 

Kill team 2

Sargent - SB/CS

Black shield - SB/CS

Veteran - SS/SB

Veteran - SS/SB

Veteran - FC

Veteran - FC

Terminator - SB/PM

Vanguard - x2BP

 

Kill team 3

Sargent - SB/CS

Black shield - SB/CS

Veteran - SS/SB

Veteran - SS/SB

Veteran - FC

Veteran - FC

Terminator - SB/PM

Vanguard - x2BP

 

(Kill teams 2&3 are in the teleportarium)

 

Ven dread - twin las, fist, SB

 

Total 1416

 

So what kind of veteran squads would fit in here?

[Brother Cruoris]

2x5 man stalker pattern boltgun squads with maybe a heavy weapon in each (HB or ML for son mortal wounds) is a good start. Then you have some back field objective campers.

The 3rd could be a intercessor/hellblaster/plasma inceptor squad that deep strikes in. But then you need to skip deep striking one of your vet squads. So maybe some another intercessor/agressor squad for some fast advancing in the mid field?

[vigitant]

One thing to keep in mind with Deep strike:  "If I deploy my infantry, can they fire turn 1?"

36" threat range on storm bolters is pretty potent.  deep strike does 2 things:  keeps the unit from being targetable and bypasses distance.
the cost is the inability to fire, and restrictions on where it can enter.

Consider that a unit that comes in turn 2 for rapid fire shoots the same as a unit that fires outside of 15" turn 1 and 2.
and that earlier fire gives more value(units killed early fire less)

 

And of course if you move into rapid fire range turn 2, and can shoot turn 1, thats even better.

TLDR: Deep strike is better viewed as a tactical option on deployment than as strategic part of a unit's role.  If you deep strike, do it on deployment for a specific reason.

One of the common mistakes i see a lot is putting things in deep strike on reflex.  So many times it's simply locking away a large portion of the list for the most important turn, and handing your opponent a chance to defeat you in detail.

[BrotherAetherick]

I agree with vigitant

 

Deep strike probably should only be used to protect a unit from alpha strike, for example a leviathan dread against an army full of 4x fusion coldstars or harly bikes. It's very possible armies with those kind of units will destroy it turn 1.

 

You run a very big risk of getting screen out of acceptable targets if you deepstrike the majority of your infantry. For example, against imperium soup, guard can move move move guardsman to take over half the board leaving their castellan/tank commanders free to rain hell. Aeldari can quicken guardian blobs, chaos can dark matter crystal or warptime a giant blob of things, orkz da jump, etc. By waiting till turn 2 you might be able to punch a few holes into screens, but as your opponent is the one who removes models, and gets another movement phase, they are pretty much dictating where your deepstrikers can land, and you're paying 1 CP for it.

 

Vets in cover turn 1 are ridiculously tanky against most guns that are in range.

2+ termi save for mortar spam, 3++ for long range AT weapons or other artillery. -1 ap weapons (helverins, butcher cannons, heavy bolters) are negated by cover or the 2cp strat.

 

If mobility is the concern, a jump pack libby or captain carrying the beacon of angelis is way better to reposition units.

[IronDreddKnight]

Thank you vigitant and brother aetherick, your insights on deep strike have made me reconsider.

 

I’ll perhaps only put one team in deep strike, to Push for a far away objective perhaps.

 

I’m on the lines that we are a foot slogging infantry army. We build to soak up damage and our output grows as we advance.

 

What I need to do now, is design kill teams, to handle anti tanks. Missile launchers are my friend here? I have two dreads, but 4 lascannons shots won’t be enough right?

[BrotherAetherick]

If you want to stay pure Deathwatch, the best anti tank is unfortunately pretty much FW.

 

Contemptor mortis dreads with 4x lascannons or 2x SCA leviathans put out some serious work.

 

DW Codex wise you probably want smash captains. Venerable dreads with TL las and Missile launchers are pretty decent too, but are squishy. You could do missile launcher veteran squads but to be honest I'm not a fan.

 

If you're willing to soup, blood angels and space wolves have a bunch of characters (smash captains, libby dread, bjorn, murderfang, smash lords) that can make short work of any vehicles.

[vigitant]

Thank you vigitant and brother aetherick, your insights on deep strike have made me reconsider.

 

I’ll perhaps only put one team in deep strike, to Push for a far away objective perhaps.

 

I’m on the lines that we are a foot slogging infantry army. We build to soak up damage and our output grows as we advance.

 

What I need to do now, is design kill teams, to handle anti tanks. Missile launchers are my friend here? I have two dreads, but 4 lascannons shots won’t be enough right?

 

The problem isnt taking down a tank, its dealing with armor-heavy lists, like IG leman russ armies or IK armies.

T8 is the problem.  T7 dies surprisingly well to SIA SB's.

Vs. armored lists:

vendreads might do damage, if you get 1st turn.  The amount it takes to deal with armored lists would be cost prohibitive, and leave you losing every horde or technical list matchup.

 

Characters mesh pretty well with what we do.  hard to shoot past screen with 2+/3++ variable saves or 3+ T5 20 wound primawatch. or T5 bike squads with 2 vanguard shields.

This approach limits the effectiveness of enemy armor, removing their ability to simply prioritize AT first, then mop up for the win.  A lot of the knight lists try to get a bunch of screen to create board space and hold objectives, and often killing this screen quickly gives you the win on objectives alone.

Keeping a smash captain and a libby in the pocket of a beaconed vet squad can be very tough to deal with, and with good postioning can let you roll a line of tanks handily without ever risking taking fire on your characters.

 

Missile launchers or a missile termie in the backline aren't bad ways to go, either.  Just make sure you have enough defense to protect that unit.  It's a good idea to pair them with a smahs captain that can follow your forward units, taking advantage of all the fire directed at your AT infantry.

[vigitant]

If you're willing to soup, blood angels and space wolves have a bunch of characters (smash captains, libby dread, bjorn, murderfang, smash lords) that can make short work of any vehicles.

FWIW, this is what i've started doing.  3bike rune priests and murder fang is a super deadly little bomb, throwing out a 1d6+3d3 mortals worth of psychic powers a turn, with murderfang to go murderfang armor.  Rune priest shred infantry in melee, and can chip wounds on even T8 in a pinch.

 

I could build similarly with monocodex DW, but the SW versions are just better.  We cant compare offensively to SW psykers, smash captains, or character dreads.  and 6" HI is super annoying for people to play into.

[BrotherAetherick]

 

FWIW, this is what i've started doing.  3bike rune priests and murder fang is a super deadly little bomb, throwing out a 1d6+3d3 mortals worth of psychic powers a turn, with murderfang to go murderfang armor.  Rune priest shred infantry in melee, and can chip wounds on even T8 in a pinch.

 

I could build similarly with monocodex DW, but the SW versions are just better.  We cant compare offensively to SW psykers, smash captains, or character dreads.  and 6" HI is super annoying for people to play into.

 

 

How do you split your living lightning/fury of the wolf spirits, AFAIK since biker rune priests are index only they are only allowed 1 tempestas and smite, as that's what is on their datasheet. (even though battlescribe lets you choose 2)

[IronDreddKnight]

I’ve looked briefly at soup. Dirty 32 is an option for obvious reasons. But too cheesy?

 

Blood angels.. I love the rules for Mephiston, but the model is just outdated. Not sure I can commit to a conversion but yet.

 

Space wolves would be a risky move for me. Because I’d build a outrider full of thunder wolf cavalry because power armour on a giant wolf is as cool as it comes.

 

I do like the idea of a supreme command detachment. 3 GMDK.. 3 Raven wing talon masters (the conversion work would be extensive though).. 3 custodes jet bikes..

[vigitant]

 

 

FWIW, this is what i've started doing.  3bike rune priests and murder fang is a super deadly little bomb, throwing out a 1d6+3d3 mortals worth of psychic powers a turn, with murderfang to go murderfang armor.  Rune priest shred infantry in melee, and can chip wounds on even T8 in a pinch.

 

I could build similarly with monocodex DW, but the SW versions are just better.  We cant compare offensively to SW psykers, smash captains, or character dreads.  and 6" HI is super annoying for people to play into.

 

 

How do you split your living lightning/fury of the wolf spirits, AFAIK since biker rune priests are index only they are only allowed 1 tempestas and smite, as that's what is on their datasheet. (even though battlescribe lets you choose 2)

 

Hadnt updated my list for the bikes, so im still using jump packs.  Hadnt realized the change in powers yet, so thanks for the heads up.  saves me from reworking my kitbashing scheme(doing female models in power armor as valkryies, with a spirit wolf modeled on each, possibly one with a spear of lightning.  and Njall with a grey tattered hood as Odin)

 

 

I’ve looked briefly at soup. Dirty 32 is an option for obvious reasons. But too cheesy?

 

Blood angels.. I love the rules for Mephiston, but the model is just outdated. Not sure I can commit to a conversion but yet.

 

Space wolves would be a risky move for me. Because I’d build a outrider full of thunder wolf cavalry because power armour on a giant wolf is as cool as it comes.

 

I do like the idea of a supreme command detachment. 3 GMDK.. 3 Raven wing talon masters (the conversion work would be extensive though).. 3 custodes jet bikes..

 

Mephiston is cool, but a bit lackluster with his d3 dmg.  Libby dread is almost always just a better fill.

 

If you're into SW TWC, i'd suggest doing the HQ options.  theyre defensively light tanks with smashhammer attacks+mount attacks.  If you take a dark angels scout battalion, you can lion and the wolf to make 1 hq from each be even better.  Thunderwolf cav units are ridiculously overpriced, and point for point suck compared to WG bikers with shields or wulfen TH/SS.  The HQ options are much better.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Mephiston is much better than the Libby dread imo overall .

[vigitant]

Mephiston is much better than the Libby dread imo overall .

 

Ehh. Mephiston has T5, 4 attacks base, 5 wounds and a 2+/5+++.  offensively, he has 4 attacks S10 -3 d3.

dread has 2 more Toughness, 3 more wounds, and a 3+ and situational smoke launchers.  offensively, S10-12, -3 to -4, 3 damage

They both have access to the same powers, ways to up attacks or enable an invul or get free movement and fly.

 

That libby dread gets more value from extra attacks.  If all base attacks hit, they do the same dmg on average.

Defensive profiles are essentially sideways shifts, though libby dread gets much more value from CSM might of heroes bumping to him to T8.

Given they both have the same ways to get extra attacks, the libby dread definitely has bigger offense, and much lower chance of "Dud" turns(getting 1-2 shots through on mephiston only to roll low damage hurts a lot).

 

paying 20 extra points to take mephiston for weaker and less reliable offense and a sideways shift in defense that makes him more vulnerable to a lot of melee threats compared to the T7(S3, S6, S10) definitely doesnt qualify as much better.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"4 attacks S10 -3 d3"

 

He could have 4+d3+d3 if you really feel you need it. Mephiston has 2+ Sv and 5++ which are both huge and knows an extra psychic power.

 

The libby dread has base 3 attacks... tbh I don't understand how you can even try to make an argument is weaker based on unit base number... do you even roll bruh ?

[vigitant]

"4 attacks S10 -3 d3"

 

He could have 4+d3+d3 if you really feel you need it. Mephiston has 2+ Sv and 5++ which are both huge and knows an extra psychic power.

 

The libby dread has base 3 attacks... tbh I don't understand how you can even try to make an argument is weaker based on unit base number... do you even roll bruh ?

The libby dread has the same potential boosts in attacks...

 

3 attacks with 3 dmg vs 4 attacks with average 2 dmg.

 

Pure math:

Given a 4+ save(where the -4 ap doesnt matter):

Mephiston does an avg 4.44 dmg

Libby dread does an avg of 5 dmg

 

With the d3+d3 bonus attacks:

Mephiston: 8.889

Libby dread: 11.667

 

Same, but with fight again:

Mephy: 17.778

Libby dread: 23.333

 

2+ vs 3+ is a slight boost.  5+++ is essentially extra wounds. on avg 2.17 wounds.  vs 3 xtra wounds on the libby dread.  T5 vs T7 is a pretty meaningful difference.

 

More of a weaker attack is not necessarily better

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Mephiston can also hide in transports. The dread will have a hard time versus flyers that can park right beside it and blast it to Hell. The extra psychic power goes a long ways towards resiliency since he can cast Shield if needed on top of Wings or Quickening. There’s a reason why his points went up - the developers feel he is quite potent.

[IronDreddKnight]

I’m tempted by the flying Libby dreadnought. If only for the converting possibilities.

 

Are custodes jet bike captains stil hotness? Would they handle T8 with the wound re roll? Those models are beautiful.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Custodes jetbikes need the Charge to deal with T8 which shouldn’t be a problem plus they can lock Knights in combat too.

[Vel'Cona]

=][= OK folks, gone way OT here.  Let's bring this back to DW as a core; utilizing other factions for souping can be discussed in their relevant subforums =][=