Working with Vallejo Game Color: Thinning Question

[appiah4]

I've started using Vallejo paints and I've found thinning them to be quite the problem..

 

I'm used to working with Craft paints which have coarse pigments and are fairly thick in consistency, adding water to them usually very adversely affects their opacity but they are usable.

 

I've also used Citadel, which have finer pigments, but maintain opacity up to a respectable dilution, which I have much respect for, but they are not that great for things that require transparency such as glazes and layering, as they tend to separate..

 

Now I'm trying to work with the Vallejo Game Color line and.. to be honest, it's hell.  The paints have fair opacity out of the pot but the consistency is too thick to use for things like basecoating that way; and when you try to water them down, as soon as they are diluted they start to act like glazes! If you try to get coverage out of them they just don't work.  I've turned to their Heavy Opaque line for basecoating but you can't work with them all the time.  Worse still, trying to cover large areas with any VGC paints also seems to result in either blotchy finish or terrible streaking, they are either too diluted or too thick.

 

I have tried a dozen different paints so far and they all behave this way, so I DOUBT it's a bad stock thing (though I did buy them all from the same source, so who knows) - but I was hoping someone in the know can help me here..  Should I use something like a matte medium to dilute the paints instead of water? How do you make Vallejo paints 'work' for you?

[Imren]

So as I understand you your issue with Vallejo is the base coating. Also I assume you don't use airbrush (then you would not have this problem when airbrushing).

Vallejo in my experience separate way quicker than most other paint lines (Coat d'Arms, P3, Citadel or warcolour) which is best observed when glazing with them using wet palette, put a dot of each type of paint and thin them down equally and you will see that after 20-30 min vallejo model or game colour will be the one to separate first (P3 is the best in ths regard, will stay intact for days). This sensitivity to separation between pigment and binder is what I suspect makes these blotchiness and streaking when paintbrushing them thinned down with water. You won't see this when airbrushing since the pigment, binder and water is uniformly spread out across the surface when airbrushing.

I'd try matte medium as you mention. Apart from that, the best way to use vallejo model or game colour and get a smooth base layer finish is to airbrush them, I know that is not a good answer assuming you don't airbrush.

In your situation I'd thin them down with matte medium and basecoat with several layers until you're happy with the opacity of the layer. This may take 3-4 layers, but you will have a smoother finish than doing less layers with less thinned paint. The first layers doing so will be blotchy and streaky due to varable pigment density over the surface (due to separation) but after a few more layers this difference will fade out into a uniform opaque layer of paint, matte medium with acrylic binder in it will help out with this, it will will take more layers compared to less-separating paints.

Or just switch to P3, Coat d'Arms or throw yourself into airbrushing! :)

[appiah4]

Airbrushing is not an option, neither have the room or time to invest into it..  I guess I will have to go with some kind of specialized thinner.  Any alternatives to Matte Medium?  Something I can buy in larger quantities for cheap would be nice.

 

Another issue I have with Vallejo paints is that they dry incredibly fast on the brush..  Is this also normal?

 

The more I think about it the more it feels like I picked the wrong colors to work with :)

[Imren]

Perhaps try out vallejos own stuff (get them in the 60 ml dropper bottles instead of the regular 17 ml dropper bottles, that will be cheaper in the long run):

 

https://www.miniaturemarket.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/v/a/val73540.jpg

 

 

and for the quick drying you'll need this:

 

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.lVVIBr5niqyF9jMVQ9IXKAAAAA%26pid%3D15.1&f=1

[sarabando]

Avoid VJ thinner try Tamiyas, even the stuff for airbrushes works well on brush work. i use VJ as my primary paint and i love them.

[Arkhanist]

I like vallejo model paint, (and model air for airbrushing) quite a bit, but I'm less fond of the few game color ones I have as I too have found them pretty weak for coverage so need a lot of thin layers.

 

Quick bit of chemistry. Acrylic paint is made up of water, acrylic polymer binder, coloured pigment, and usually matting agents. As the water evaporates, the acrylic binder binds to the surface, itself, and the pigment and matting agent. Acrylic is naturally quite glossy, thus the matting agent to make it less so.

 

When you dilute paint with water, you're also diluting the binder. Water is less viscous than the polymer, so it becomes more liquid, but is also translucent, so the paint does too - you're spreading the pigment out. Dilute the binder too far, and there won't be enough to properly bond the pigment and surface together.

 

Artists mediums are basically things that add extra things other than water, but are not coloured themselves. Gloss medium is just binder and water, matte medium is binder, water and matting agent - so basically gloss transparent paint and matte transparent paint, respectively. These allow you to dilute paint, increasing its translucency, but without the risk of diluting the binder too far as you're adding extra, and potentially not making it as liquid as adding water. The final consistency of the paint will depend upon the relative viscosity of the paint and the added medium and any extra water - you can get 'gel' matte medium that's about the consistency of jam, down to very liquid ones like lahmian medium.

 

So you can get paint that's more controllable (i.e. still acts like paint, rather than watery) and still dries properly with matt medium, but it won't solve the translucency problem if the paint has a low pigment count to start with, you're still diluting the pigment - so you'll need more layers.

 

There is another type of medium that might help, called flow aid, or flow improver. You don't add much, but it basically breaks down the surface tension of water. So rather than add much water, it makes the existing water in the paint flow better. This would allow you to keep the opacity up (less dilution) but still improve flow off the brush. You can buy it neat from liquitex or winsor and newton, then dilute with water (around 1:5 to 1:10 flow-aid to water). Or you can buy it ready to use, vallejo sell pre-mixed airbrush flow improver for example, that works just fine with brush paints.

 

FWIW, vallejo game range was an attempt to colour match an older GW range, and the paint consistency was similar to those old paints. They intended the 'heavy' range to be more suited for base coats, while the standard game range was more for layering. The heavy range has more pigment, but it's still not as good as citadel base paints.

 

You may want to investigate other possibilities for base paints if flow aid doesn't work for you; vallejo model colour definitely is very opaque and good for basecoating, but does separate if you thin heavily and has limited colours. P3 is another option with good coverage, but the colours really don't overlap vallejo or citadel. If you can get them cheaply, army painter paints aren't bad for base painting at all, but they do usually need quite a bit of thinning.

 

Or you get a few citadel base paints (they really are good coverage) and use game colour for layering. 

 

If you're using glazing though, that's a whole different kettle of fish entirely!

[Spiritual Liege]

I've heard good things about Scale 75 and their coverage.

[Razblood]

I have quite a few game color paints and have only had problems like this with a bottle of black that had been stored in direct sunlight, I suspect the source you obtained them from may have stored them incorrectly as heat and UV tend to cause the binder to act weird.

[appiah4]

I am somnewhat confused by the amount of additives and extenders Vallejo has in their range.. My main issue is that watering down my paint to a consistency that will let me paint thin coats results in brush streaks and blotchiness - do I need a matt medium or thinner medium to thin my paint instead of water?  What is the difference?

[Imren]

You want (matt) medium, because it contains more acrylic binder compared to thinners. Most acrylic thinner is all a mixture of IPA (isopropyl alcohol), water, fluid retarder and flow improver. However, some thinners have binders in them as well, you can usually see this as they are more opaque, for example the regular vallejo thinner has some binder in it but less than the matte medium, but vallejo airbrush thinner has no binder in it instead just IPA, fluid retarder and flow improver (whats needed when airbrushing) since when airbrushing you get a more uniform dispersion of paint over the surface compared to painting with paintbrush  and therefore no need for binder (thats why when airbrushing thinning with water and alcohol works as good as thinning with medium).

So to answer you question, get the matt medium.

[appiah4]

You want (matt) medium, because it contains more acrylic binder compared to thinners. Most acrylic thinner is all a mixture of IPA (isopropyl alcohol), water, fluid retarder and flow improver. However, some thinners have binders in them as well, you can usually see this as they are more opaque, for example the regular vallejo thinner has some binder in it but less than the matte medium, but vallejo airbrush thinner has no binder in it instead just IPA, fluid retarder and flow improver (whats needed when airbrushing) since when airbrushing you get a more uniform dispersion of paint over the surface compared to painting with paintbrush  and therefore no need for binder (thats why when airbrushing thinning with water and alcohol works as good as thinning with medium).

 

So to answer you question, get the matt medium.

 

Thanks! What exactly is the purpose of the thinner then, in comparison?  As it has flow improver and fluid retarder, it's more suitable to blending and detail work?

 

Vallejo's mediums seem to be poor value for the volume you get..  I'll probably just grab the liquitex matte medium.  This is what I want, right?

 

 

Thanks!

[Imren]

Thinner is more suitable to do your own washes out of regular paint when paintbrushing, it will break up the paint pigment and have the whole mixture flow into the recesses as it contains flow improver, also the retarder slows down the drying so that the wash is given time to flow into recesses. This is true if the thinner has less alcohol in it, with more alcohol it will dry much faster and be less suitable to make washes, that's why airbrushing thinners (vallejo airbrush thinner and Tamiya X20-A) have more alcohol than paintbrush thinners.

 

If you want to do glazes as in a (relativerly) uniform layer all over the surface then you want to maintain the pigment "emulsion" uniformly spread across the paint and therefore you need more binder, so then you use (matt) medium instead.

 

Basically, you want to create your own wash with paint, then thin it with thinner, if you want to glaze then use medium.

 

Yeah I as long as the matt medium is made for acrylic paint it will work fine. I never tried Liquitex matt medium but i believe it will work just as fine as vallejo own matt medium.

[appiah4]

Many thanks to everyone.

[Imren]

you're welcome, good luck with you vallejo paints!

 

Keep one thing in mind when diluting your paint with medium only: The medium does not evaporate completely when drying, so it will leave some solid layer of its own when dried and this will add up with your paint when mixed. so your paint will be thicker compared to diluting with thinner or water, so when you paint with a mixture of paint and medium what you have done is essentially maintained the ratio between solidifying chemicals (pigments and binders) and evaropating ones (water and alcohols) but reduces the concentration of pigment. So you do run the risk of covering up details with more transparent solidified paint layers (with less pigment) if you dilute with medium only.

 

I advice that you still thin your paint with a wee bit of water in add medium and focus on doing thin layers. The first layers will be blotchy but the third and fourth layer will havfe enough pigment covering the surface in a uniform way so that you get a good coverage.

[Razblood]

As an alternative try thinning with a mix of flow aid and water, this is what I use and it works very well with all Vallejo ranges.

[Wayniac]

The only Vallejo paints I have issues with are their metallics in the Model Color and Game Color range; if I don't use water it's way too thick, if I add water all the metallic flakes separate and you get water with glitter, basically, that's completely unusable (I also have this issue with Army Painter). I have to use Medium or "magic wash" (1:1 water and Pledge floor polish) to thin it without it stopping becoming paint.

 

I haven't had an issue thinning the Game Color with a bit of water, but if you're having trouble I'd suggest trying to use some sort of thinner/matte medium to thin instead of using water; that should thin it down without diluting it so it doesn't cover.  An alternative might be to try the Air Color/Game Air paints; these paints are pre-thinned because they are meant for an airbrush, so I find I don't need to thin them further and can use them straight out of the bottle but I've found a few are very very thin and require multiple coats of anything to cover properly unless you're doing a shade coat first.