To Continue or not to Continue? What next?

[JJ-McGuinness]

Brothers! 

 

I am struggling at the moment to find the zeal to continue taking the Templars to the battlefield! I need some inspiration and advice to enable to me to continue the fight in the Emperors name! 

 

So I have posted a couple of lists and ideas on the forum, and have been very much put in place, so I admit list building isn't my strong point. I am reaching out now, because I am getting badly beaten again and again by a range of armies in my local area. I wanted to ask the forum if i continue, what should i add to my ranks next. Below i list what i already have.

 

Helbrecht 

Grimaldus 

Emperors Champion 

 

1 Castallan 

Heavy Weapon Initiates 

1 Hvy Bolter

1 Grave Cannon

1 Lascannon 

1 Plasma

2 Missle launchers 

40 Initiates 

10 Neophytes 

5 Terminators (PS, 4 PF, stormbolters)
5 Assault terminators (switchable) 

5 Assault marines
5 Vanguard Vets

5 Sternguard

2 dreadnoughts

1 Venerable Dreadnought

Land Speeder 

Land Raider Crusader 

Land Raider 

 

Razorback

Rhino 

Drop Pod 

 

2 devastator squads painted as crimson fists.

 

This is my crusade as it stands, and there are problems, what can you advise to add to improve? I would like to mention that I am a traditionalist, so have no primarus, but will consider them if it is what is needed. I am not looking to be competitive, but give as good as I get. 

 

Thanks 

[HighMarshalAmp]

Sweet Lord, how many points are that?

I say move on to pastures of any other color, you must be so sick of painting black by now o.0

 

To stay with Templars, Ironclad Dreadnoughts make for nice Melee monsters and have T8, one more than other Dreads. And on a successful charge, you can roll a d6 and on a 4+, they cause d3 mortal wounds.

 

You could just as well take any other high value unit (like the Termies or the Vanguard Vets) and do another 5 of them. Threat saturation.

My personal rule of two says that if I have a heavy hitting unit of any kind, I should have at least two of that. That gives your opponent more than one point to focus his fire on and, unlike if you have two different units you'd like to keep alive, if one dies, you still have another one that does exactly the same job.

[Schlitzaf]

What your list? I’d get a few more Neophytes to run some tides. Like a Templar list should try and utilize what is innately strong about our boys in black. My basic Templar list begins with 2-4 Tide (13-16 man squads of Equal Neo/Injt as possible, Pow/Pow/2x Melta Or Flamer) Or 4-6 FauxDevi Crusaders.

 

Finally I include 2-4 Intercessor Squads depending on the list and otherwise. Intercessors function either as Fire Support for Tide or as being ‘Assault’ force due to being 2w for Faux Devi. Otherwise you can 1 tide per 2 Intercessor or 1 faux per 1 Intercessor. Dreads also function as Faux Devi or Fire Support Intercessor.

 

The bigger deal for Templars is that you need to decide on Black Tide or GunSaders (for lack of a better term). The two lists can look similar but are very different.

 

Tide Lists use 2-4 tide squads alongside plethora of deep strikes and otherwise to tie up the enemy and win via objectives. In those sceneries the character are your bread winners.

 

GunSaders instead use massive number of Faux Devi alongside razors or rhino’s to win via attrition then end game double charge enemy to win. While having Intercessors or Shooty Tides hold/anchor back line. These lists for example are lists best suited to Helbrecht as you run him and Veterans in Razors/Rhino alongside your other squads and they work as the finishing blow.

 

Like if made a suggestion, you need some Neophytes or some more special weapons. Then depending get more razors or rhinos. Really I need to see the list your running

[Sword Brother Adelard]

How are the troops armed in that mix?

[Schlitzaf]

Asking me or thread OP?

[CantusMaximGloria]

Well, I think adding some Crimson Fists for heavy support could always let you run your Black Templars as the deadly close combatants they are. I have a spearhead detachment of Imperial Fist Devastators that are just Heavy Bolters which are really good for covering ups some glaring flaws I had in my army. The boys in yellow provide an incredible deterrent by ignoring cover, having the hellfire stratagem available, and putting out a decent amount of fire. I've killed leviathans, land raiders, and most infantry pretty well with these guys and they are pretty cheap too! Plus with Vigilus as our new campaign for the time being you'd have the perfect excuse to start up your fellow Sons of Dorn as a way to bolster your lacking areas while keeping your Black Templars in line with how you want your crusade to work. 

 

In the vein of faux devastator squads for our crusader squads you could always run a combi-plasma, plasma, and grav-cannon. The ranges synergize nicely and the overall effect of all ranged weapons in that squad is to kill MEQ dead at 24 inches. Additionally I'd look into the Sword Brothers detachment from Vigilus as well since it seems to give our characters and our company veterans(which you could probably work your various veterans into a squad of) the extra oomph they needed to feel workable again in melee. 

 

As far as suggestions to expanding your crusade force I throw my vote to some Centurions of either flavor. Assault centurions are monstrously destructive to both armored and infantry targets and love riding around in land raiders. Devastator centurions can bring a lot of pain to wherever they are needed and now with the discount they have from CA2018 they aren't a shot in the knee to take. If you wanted to expand on your Terminators I'd recommend the Cataphractii variants as they offer the ability to take slightly less squishy lightning claw terminators or PF/SB terminators and they look pretty cool for Templars imo.

 

Don't be too discouraged by the current difficulties we are having, I was in the same spot towards the beginning of 8th but just put my efforts into playing and building armies that still fit with my crusades vision. It definitely took a while to get over the difficulties I was having but working on other projects besides my Templars allowed me to 'recharge' my zeal as it were. 

[JJ-McGuinness]

Thanks for the advice so far brothers. 

 

so Lists are generally run as: 

 

Marshal

Emperors Champion 

 

2x Crusader squads (6 initiates CB, 1 Pow, SB 5 Neo)

2x Faux Devi (Plasma gun, Las/Plas/Grav) 

 

Razorback (Las/ Ass) 

 

Vanguard

Helbrecht

 

Company Veterans (Pow/ Storm) x5

Company Veterans (Pow/ Storm) x5

 Ven Dread (auto + CCC)

 

I run slightly different ones from time to time. I know i need to run equal numbers of Ini to Neo in crusader squads, i just need the models. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Asking me or thread OP?

OP, you're pretty clear

[JJ-McGuinness]

The biggest issue I am having is with really manoeuvrable lists, especially Ravenwing! They use the stratagem to effectively run half way through CC before you get to attack back. I struggle to pin them down and kill them, especially when they run: 

 

Sammael on land speeder 

Darkshroud

8-10 dark knights 

2 dark talons

 

and there's more but i can't remember. 

[Schlitzaf]

Umm that not how that Strategems works. Give me a moment I’ll think of something.

[JJ-McGuinness]

Stratagems:

Swift Strike 2 CP: Use this Stratagem in the Fight phase after an Attack Squadron unit from your army has fought. That unit can immediately make a move (and Advance) as if it were the Movement Phase. If there are any enemy units within 1" it can Fall Back instead.

 

I believe it is this one, i guess reading it, you can take it that it means as soon as they have fought they can move again. 

[Iago]

Brother! 

We are here for you in your time of need. The Black Templars have the zeal to push on no matter the odds and this zeal will be found within you. I have not been back on the path for long, however there are a few things that I have come to learn. 

 

- Power armour is not as good as it used to be. 

 

It seems as if that ravenwing army is designed to melt through your armour quickly power armour will just get destroyed even in cover. I would recommend that you stay away as much as possible until absolutely necessary... 

 

A few questions for you my brother:

 

What missions do you play?

What is the terrain like?

How competitive is your group?

 

With the little information I have received from you so far it seems like you might find it productive to think outside the box... 

 

Take the shooty land raider, and the rhino and the Razorback -

Take Helbrecht and a Lieutenant -

Take 3 Crusader Squads (you can fit them in the transports)

This leaves 10 spots in tranports, so take a Devastator Squad with a cherub. And you can place all the army in the transports... that is 3 drops. Then, you take an assault terminator unit with thunder hammer and storm shields so you can deep strike them and have saves against the plasma. 

 

Use the devs, the land raider and the razorback as a bastion of faith with the High marshal and lieutenant to direct the fire re rolls to hit and re roll 1ns to wound. 

 

Then counte assault as the enemy closes in with the crusaders at short range and the terminators, ideally if you have a thunder fire cannon I would add one of those as well as it can fix the land raider when it takes fire. This should be a good base to start off on at least my brother. 

 

Zeal and Purity. 

[JJ-McGuinness]

Brother! 

We are here for you in your time of need. The Black Templars have the zeal to push on no matter the odds and this zeal will be found within you. I have not been back on the path for long, however there are a few things that I have come to learn. 

 

- Power armour is not as good as it used to be. 

 

It seems as if that ravenwing army is designed to melt through your armour quickly power armour will just get destroyed even in cover. I would recommend that you stay away as much as possible until absolutely necessary... 

 

A few questions for you my brother:

 

What missions do you play?

What is the terrain like?

How competitive is your group?

 

With the little information I have received from you so far it seems like you might find it productive to think outside the box... 

 

Take the shooty land raider, and the rhino and the Razorback -

Take Helbrecht and a Lieutenant -

Take 3 Crusader Squads (you can fit them in the transports)

This leaves 10 spots in tranports, so take a Devastator Squad with a cherub. And you can place all the army in the transports... that is 3 drops. Then, you take an assault terminator unit with thunder hammer and storm shields so you can deep strike them and have saves against the plasma. 

 

Use the devs, the land raider and the razorback as a bastion of faith with the High marshal and lieutenant to direct the fire re rolls to hit and re roll 1ns to wound. 

 

Then counte assault as the enemy closes in with the crusaders at short range and the terminators, ideally if you have a thunder fire cannon I would add one of those as well as it can fix the land raider when it takes fire. This should be a good base to start off on at least my brother. 

 

Zeal and Purity. 

 

Thank you for your aid brother! 

 

To answer your questions:

 

What Mission do you play?

 

Mostly Maelstrom missions, so i have to try and be flexible. 

 

Terrain?

 

Really good, mostly play on urban maps with lots of buildings, however line of sight is mixed with lots of windows. Against Dark angels I have to be fully hidden as they ignore cover, other armies is ok. 

 

Competitive: 

 

Mixed, some of the lists can be competitive. Often see my groups lists on BR across Youtube.

 

 

What I have been thinking is I need something punchy, as they are based around a crucial target, that needs to be taken out ASAP. Things like Darkshrouds, Farseer Skyrunner surrounded by a Warlock Skyrunner Conclave. 

 

I am looking at purchasing some new units, was looking at a StormRaven, Predator, Leviathan Dread. Stuff like that. What do you Brothers think? 

 

Thanks 

[Honda]

In short, you continue.

 

You are a Templar, a son of Dorn and a descendent of Sigismund. You prevail, regardless of the circumstances. Your ZEAL fuels the engine of your wrath, unleashing the holy rage that was gifted to you by the Emperor.

 

You continue to swing your sword until there are no more enemies to slay, or you are no longer able to swing.

 

Until the end.

[JJ-McGuinness]

What your list? I’d get a few more Neophytes to run some tides. Like a Templar list should try and utilize what is innately strong about our boys in black. My basic Templar list begins with 2-4 Tide (13-16 man squads of Equal Neo/Injt as possible, Pow/Pow/2x Melta Or Flamer) Or 4-6 FauxDevi Crusaders.

 

Finally I include 2-4 Intercessor Squads depending on the list and otherwise. Intercessors function either as Fire Support for Tide or as being ‘Assault’ force due to being 2w for Faux Devi. Otherwise you can 1 tide per 2 Intercessor or 1 faux per 1 Intercessor. Dreads also function as Faux Devi or Fire Support Intercessor.

 

The bigger deal for Templars is that you need to decide on Black Tide or GunSaders (for lack of a better term). The two lists can look similar but are very different.

 

Tide Lists use 2-4 tide squads alongside plethora of deep strikes and otherwise to tie up the enemy and win via objectives. In those sceneries the character are your bread winners.

 

GunSaders instead use massive number of Faux Devi alongside razors or rhino’s to win via attrition then end game double charge enemy to win. While having Intercessors or Shooty Tides hold/anchor back line. These lists for example are lists best suited to Helbrecht as you run him and Veterans in Razors/Rhino alongside your other squads and they work as the finishing blow.

 

Like if made a suggestion, you need some Neophytes or some more special weapons. Then depending get more razors or rhinos. Really I need to see the list your running

 

Schlitzaf, can you break down what you mean by GunSaders, and what your list would include if you were to run one? I get the idea, but thought I'd get clarification. 

 

Thanks

[Schlitzaf]

It’s basically variant of RazorSpam. But it be double Dbl + Vang (or another weird detachment). Helbrect, Champion, 1-2 Castallen And 1-2 Marshalls then 2-3 4-5 man Company Vets with Melee/Shield and 1-2 Pods. Helbrect, Champion and Castallen or Marshall (Marshall having SwordBro Trait) w/ Vets in Pod (Helm or Teeth on non-named depending on preference). Then 6-8 FauxDevi Crusaders and 0-4 Intercessors. And then half in Razors.

 

You could replace 2 Razors with Land Raider Crusaders or 2 Dreadnought and maybe one a tide squad in it. 2nd Marshall And/Or Castallen runs with Razor Faux Devies while non mounted sit in backfield. Razor mounted could in also do 2x chain instead of Bolter so they can charge assist. It’s basically RazorSpam.

[JJ-McGuinness]

An update for you Brothers!

 

I have found my zeal, and a lot of it since this bleak point in my crusade in which I questioned my motives. Now I am rampaging around the galaxy putting both heretic and xenos to the blade (and the odd Imperium), pretty much whoever gets in my way. However wanted to look at a few different things, as primaris I am not a fan of, and will paint them a different shade of Dorn if I do. 

 

I wanted to ask what peoples opinion are of flyers, as I am looking at adding a Air Wing to my crusade, as it gives a different set of options, and a fair pit of firepower to the crusade. Do any of your crusaders utilise this tool? Thoughts?

 

Thanks,

J

[BitsHammer]

Glad to hear you found your zeal. Personally, save for putting witches in your army, if it kills heretics then I see no issue putting it in your army.

[Marshal Vespasian]

I have seen some flyers in army lists on here and gets you to the enemy quicker and safer. Squad grimaldus did lots of its fighting from a thunderhawk in helsreach. So absolutely no issue with it.

Skari used a Flyer in his tournament list on yt and I think he has the odd Post about it on here too.

Personally I am thinking about more vehicles (except for rhinos) in General and flyers as a special case for my crusade too.

[Marshal Mattias]

I have previously used a stormraven in all my +1500pt lists. While I haven't tested it out in 8th, (and I'm sure others can give you some personal feedback) the strategy is the same.

 

The raven delivered excellent firepower and a tooled-up ironclad, directly to whether they were required. Usually, this was to effectively assassinate a warlord and retinue (dropping off the EC and some honourguard perhaps) but often it was to counter whatever the enemy's "grand plan" was, crippling a back line or adding overwhelming force to a single flank.

 

Unless 8th has utterly neutered the unit, I would expect it to fill a similar role.

[Medjugorje]

Waste of points in my eyes. Maybe in a few matches he could be a thing but others (especially against Castellan , Looters or Tau) its totally BS.

 

I played one in a bigger tournament as Ultramarine and -1 to hit bonus from Sicarius (participants used to be the best players in my country) and even though I reached 8th rank at this time I never played it again. Now the META changed a lot from the start - increased by points AND stronger codex came out. In current Meta there are just a few tanks you could play competitive:

 

- Rhino

- Razorback (not sure)

- Stalker

[Marshal Vespasian]

I would like to use this thread for general list building advice/ideas.

 

My group likes to play fluffy and not conpletely Powergame it, that being said within what I feel is cool, I would like actually having a chance vs orcs, gsc and the like.

 

Thing I would like to try include:

- Agressors

- Leviathan Dread (loadout?) I feel this is a project for a lauter time when I have become more comfortable airbrushing

- 2*ironclad how would the Rest of my list have too Look to make these work? Normally I count on 30 melee crusaders and 10 sword brethren as a melee core to my army. 2 iron clads would maybe replace the brethren.

- more vehicles/tanks

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Razorbacks are good, Assbacks are more expensive, and were nerfed cost wise, but I still love them.

[JJ-McGuinness]

I have added a couple of Assbacks to my lists recently, do a fair bit of damage. Just need something around to help with the odd re-roll. Although need a delivery system for my company Vets now. The LRC is the common sense vehicle, but it doesn't half attract a lot of attention. Looking at a Stormraven, but feel that will have the same issue. 

 

 

Waste of points in my eyes. Maybe in a few matches he could be a thing but others (especially against Castellan , Looters or Tau) its totally BS.

 

I played one in a bigger tournament as Ultramarine and -1 to hit bonus from Sicarius (participants used to be the best players in my country) and even though I reached 8th rank at this time I never played it again. Now the META changed a lot from the start - increased by points AND stronger codex came out. In current Meta there are just a few tanks you could play competitive:

 

- Rhino

- Razorback (not sure)

- Stalker

 

Medjugore, may i ask why you mention Stalker?

 

 

 

I would like to use this thread for general list building advice/ideas.

My group likes to play fluffy and not conpletely Powergame it, that being said within what I feel is cool, I would like actually having a chance vs orcs, gsc and the like.

Thing I would like to try include:
- Agressors
- Leviathan Dread (loadout?) I feel this is a project for a lauter time when I have become more comfortable airbrushing
- 2*ironclad how would the Rest of my list have too Look to make these work? Normally I count on 30 melee crusaders and 10 sword brethren as a melee core to my army. 2 iron clads would maybe replace the brethren.
- more vehicles/tanks

 

I am looking at a couple of Leviathan dreads, and putting the Storm-Cannon-Array and the Melta Lance. Anyone already running these?